Do You Believe in God?

[Electric_E]

[quote]solafide55 wrote:

I am not sure how the law of biogenesis (or do you mean abiogenesis?) or thermodynamics can translate into the universe requiring a creator, but you are now at least speaking my kind of language, I appreciate someone trying to evidence the existence of god with science.

I would love to here your elaborations on these theories

I in no way claim to be a expert in science. I do have a passing interest, but it is possible that I confused the terms biogenesis and abiogenesis.

However it was my understanding that abiogenesis refers to spontaneous generation or that life does not necissarily need to come from life, that it can be generated given the proper conditions. To my knowlege these conditions are yet unknown.

As for biogenesis (if that is the correct terminology) being a proof for a creator it would be pretty staright forward. When we observe lving creatures in our environment they only come from other living creatures. They never just appear out of thin air. If one holds a truly atheistic viewpoint there dilema is in what kick started the begning, where did the information, matter, and substances come from the began the cosmos and life as we know it.

Most theists will tell you it was God, the uncaused cause. Science rules out a priori the uncaused cause or God from the equation so they are left with what I see as an unanswerable dilema.

The complexity, intracate details, and fragility of life point more towards a creator, rather then naturalitic means.

To prove that with 100% certainty either way would require us to be there in the beginning of time.

I believe that the real problem is the presuppositions we come to the table with, which filter the evidence that we see.

From what I see the theistic approach explains more of the data.[/quote]

So using that theory would that not also translate to explain the creation of god also? And hence require the need for another god to create the one that created our universe.

Also if a group of highly respectable scientists could irrefutably prove how the first organisms on earth appeared, would you then because of this proof change your mind about the existence of god?

[kroby]

[quote]nephorm wrote:

One thing is absolutely clear: it is impossible for a human being to intellect God.[/quote]

Before I read any more of this thread, I must say that this is the most sublime truism spoken. To take this one step beyond…

Then why do humans tell one another that they do have an understanding?

Power. Control. Security that others believe the same.

People are afraid that they are alone in the wide universe. That’s why they create mysticism. A pity to see slaves today. Slaves to a lie they are willing to perpetuate.

I wonder if the Brothers Grimm had the same PR, we’d believe in dragons and such like we do “prophets.”

[kroby]

[quote]rainjack wrote:

God? I absolutely believe. in him.

For those that think it is stupid - I don’t really care. I don’t have to see, feel, or touch him to believe. It’s a little thing called faith.

I will never shy from that faith - unlike closed minded idiots who will call out the stupidity of my faith in anonymity.

Everyone believes in something - even if it is nothing.

[/quote]

I call it being scared to stand up and take life without apology or debt. I’m calling it being afraid of being your own boss, beholden to none. I call it some sham of an insurance policy you hope exists, thus making your existence easier to manage.

It sure feels cozy thinking there’s some Big Guy up there, waiting to wipe your ass when it gets too messy.

Keep your faith, RJ. Flip that coin over, and you’ll see my pity for you.

That’s not close minded thought. And I don’t pity the stupid.

[Sloth]

Ah, I’m a slave, fearful of life, afaid of the big bad universe! I shall seek out a secular therapist and get on the latest personality/mood altering drugs science has to offer. I’m ashamed of myself!

[RSGZ]

[quote]pookie wrote:
solafide55 wrote:
Most theists will tell you it was God, the uncaused cause. Science rules out a priori the uncaused cause or God from the equation so they are left with what I see as an unanswerable dilema.

Why unanswerable?

The complexity, intracate details, and fragility of life point more towards a creator, rather then naturalitic means.

Why? What’s unnatural about life? I also disagree about any fragility: The globe is covered in life. Life, once started, seems to be quite enduring.

The question of how life started from non-life (which is abiogenesis) is another scientific question and while a hard one, is hardly impossible to answer. At least, no one has yet proven that it is impossible to answer it.

To prove that with 100% certainty either way would require us to be there in the beginning of time.

Not really. If you can create in a laboratory conditions where non-living elements spontaneously from into self-replicators, you have shown that it is possible, given the known elements and laws of physics, for non-living materials to assemble, by random chance, into self-replicating molecules.

Whether it turns out to be the exact same process as the one that took place 4 billion years ago is not really important. Simply showing that life can start from non-living elements on its own when the right conditions are present would be enough.

Once you have simple self-replicators, evolution explains the rest.

Note that the initial life forms would be rather simpler than what we generally think of when we say “life.” We’re not talking about a fish spontaneously forming in dirty water, or even a microbe here.

I believe that the real problem is the presuppositions we come to the table with, which filter the evidence that we see.

I’ll let you ponder who has presuppositions here.

From what I see the theistic approach explains more of the data.

It actually explains nothing. It simply invents unverifiable answers to difficult questions. The process is often referred to as “The God of the gaps.” Any question not yet elucidated by science is claimed to be unanswerable forever and attributed to willful acts of God.
[/quote]

OWNED.

Evolution has also been proven in amoebas, go look it up.

[anonym]

pookie is on fire this thread - with the “off” topics as much as the “on”.

Good thread, guys.

[BiscuitChief]

Haven’t had time to read through all of this but my thoughts. I lean towards no, I don’t believe in God. And I really don’t like large scale organized religion. I think it is a breeding ground for discrimination and hypocrisy.

That said I respect people who do believe in God, actually live it, and can respect the beliefs of others. I have no respect for the people who are low lifes but think that saying I’m sorry on Sunday makes it all okay.

In the end I like to ask people why it matters? If someone proved God does or does not exist would it change the way you live your life? Do you lead a good life because you believe it is the right thing to do, or because you are afraid God is watching?

[xXSeraphimXx]

[quote]electric_eales wrote:
xXSeraphimXx wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
Ok here is a biggy for you believers out there!

Many of you believe in god because you cannot comprehend that our universe just happened, you believe that it must have required a much mightier power/force (god) to create it and us.

By your logic then there must have been a much more powerful force that created god, and a more powerful force that created that god.

By your logic of how something so amazingly complex must be created by another force, then there must be an infinite number of gods that are more mightier and more powerful than ‘your god’

I am interested those of you who do believe in god do you believe there is also an infinite number of gods before your god?

God is the creator and upholder of all reality, an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, infinite and eternal spirit personality. God just IS.

and you know this because…
[/quote]

Well Then I should add I believe.

[xXSeraphimXx]

xXSeraphimXx wrote:
I believe in God but there are many things I do not agree with when it comes to religios teachings. First off I think it is stupid when someone says just believe what is the harm. I doubt it works that way you have to truly believe within. I also dont believe in Hell, I think what instead happens is you cease to exist. If you are an evil person or reject god as your creator/father you simply never wake when you die. No punishment or pain simply the end.

I do not believe he died for the sin of man. God loved us before Jesus came and after he left, I hardly believe he would demand the death/sacrifice of his son for us. Jesus came as a mortal to earth to live and die as a human. It was ignorant man who killed him, the crucifixion is an outcome of the fears of religious leaders of the day, who regarded his teachings as a threat to their positions of authority.

I dont think to believe in God requires the dismissal of evolution. I believe that evolution is orderly and controlled. Primordial life was intelligently planned, implanted, and monitored instead of arising spontaneously.Mortal man is not an evolutionary accident the purpose of evolution on earth was to produce creatures of free will that can develop spiritual natures and survive their material existence, going on to have eternal spiritual lives.

Sorry for being a little scattered with my thoughts but it is difficult for me when discussing things of this nature.

TQB wrote:
Sir, You are a Unitarian;-). I guess the creed didn’t work.

xXSeraphimXx wrote:
How so ? I do not think so unitarians teach that God is a single personality. I believe that God is a single deity that exists in a Trinity of three persons the Universal Father, Eternal Son, and Infinite Spirit.

Unitarians also believe that Jesus was just a guy maybe a prophet. Here is a passage from a book I read that explains Jesus. Jesus is the joint “offspring” of the Universal Father and Eternal Son called a “Creator Son”. A divine Creator Son is considered the full representation of the Universal Father and Eternal Son that is possible to people. Jesus of Nazareth is identified as a Creator Son who incarnated on Earth and whose life and teachings are portrayed as the fullest revelation of the personality and attitude of God ever given to humanity.

Sorry something happened when I edited.

[Electric_E]

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
xXSeraphimXx wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
Ok here is a biggy for you believers out there!

Many of you believe in god because you cannot comprehend that our universe just happened, you believe that it must have required a much mightier power/force (god) to create it and us.

By your logic then there must have been a much more powerful force that created god, and a more powerful force that created that god.

By your logic of how something so amazingly complex must be created by another force, then there must be an infinite number of gods that are more mightier and more powerful than ‘your god’

I am interested those of you who do believe in god do you believe there is also an infinite number of gods before your god?

God is the creator and upholder of all reality, an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, infinite and eternal spirit personality. God just IS.

and you know this because…

Well Then I should add I believe.

[/quote]

Ok fair enough I respect that, but I am also interested why do you believe that?

[RSGZ]

[quote]electric_eales wrote:
xXSeraphimXx wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
xXSeraphimXx wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
Ok here is a biggy for you believers out there!

Many of you believe in god because you cannot comprehend that our universe just happened, you believe that it must have required a much mightier power/force (god) to create it and us.

By your logic then there must have been a much more powerful force that created god, and a more powerful force that created that god.

By your logic of how something so amazingly complex must be created by another force, then there must be an infinite number of gods that are more mightier and more powerful than ‘your god’

I am interested those of you who do believe in god do you believe there is also an infinite number of gods before your god?

God is the creator and upholder of all reality, an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, infinite and eternal spirit personality. God just IS.

and you know this because…

Well Then I should add I believe.

Ok fair enough I respect that, but I am also interested why do you believe that?

[/quote]

Because of being brainwashed from a young age, and now having a hard time coming to grips with the fact they he/she has been lied to all along.

(I was there)

[Sloth]

[quote]rsg wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
xXSeraphimXx wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
xXSeraphimXx wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
Ok here is a biggy for you believers out there!

Many of you believe in god because you cannot comprehend that our universe just happened, you believe that it must have required a much mightier power/force (god) to create it and us.

By your logic then there must have been a much more powerful force that created god, and a more powerful force that created that god.

By your logic of how something so amazingly complex must be created by another force, then there must be an infinite number of gods that are more mightier and more powerful than ‘your god’

I am interested those of you who do believe in god do you believe there is also an infinite number of gods before your god?

God is the creator and upholder of all reality, an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, infinite and eternal spirit personality. God just IS.

and you know this because…

Well Then I should add I believe.

Ok fair enough I respect that, but I am also interested why do you believe that?

Because of being brainwashed from a young age, and now having a hard time coming to grips with the fact they he/she has been lied to all along.

(I was there)[/quote]

Huh, interesting. I’m the polar opposite of you. I had very little care for religion as a child (and my family wasn’t close to being a Christian household). It wasn’t until later in life that I recieved my brainwashing and became an uneducated sheeple.

[xXSeraphimXx]

[quote]rsg wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
xXSeraphimXx wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
xXSeraphimXx wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
Ok here is a biggy for you believers out there!

Many of you believe in god because you cannot comprehend that our universe just happened, you believe that it must have required a much mightier power/force (god) to create it and us.

By your logic then there must have been a much more powerful force that created god, and a more powerful force that created that god.

By your logic of how something so amazingly complex must be created by another force, then there must be an infinite number of gods that are more mightier and more powerful than ‘your god’

I am interested those of you who do believe in god do you believe there is also an infinite number of gods before your god?

God is the creator and upholder of all reality, an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, infinite and eternal spirit personality. God just IS.

and you know this because…

Well Then I should add I believe.

Ok fair enough I respect that, but I am also interested why do you believe that?

Because of being brainwashed from a young age, and now having a hard time coming to grips with the fact they he/she has been lied to all along.

(I was there)[/quote]

Actually you could not be farther from the truth. Other then funerals,I have actually never gone to church or even opened a bible to read it. I’ve flipped through it but never found it interesting. I was not baptized until the age of 15.

My parents never pushed anything on me, they decided that as I got older if I should choose to learn about different faiths/God/spirituality I would do so on my own and they would be there to answer any questions I might need help with.

To tell you the truth I was never interested in knowing about God or even caring but, as I got older I began to question many things and wonder why I am here, whats the purpose. Through much reading and listening I have established many beliefs but am far from having all the answers.

[RSGZ]

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
Actually you could not be farther from the truth. Other then funerals,I have actually never gone to church or even opened a bible to read it. I’ve flipped through it but never found it interesting. I was not baptized until the age of 15.

My parents never pushed anything on me, they decided that as I got older if I should choose to learn about different faiths/God/spirituality I would do so on my own and they would be there to answer any questions I might need help with.

To tell you the truth I was never interested in knowing about God or even caring but, as I got older I began to question many things and wonder why I am here, whats the purpose. Through much reading and listening I have established many beliefs but am far from having all the answers. [/quote]

You should thank your parents for not forcing any of this on you, and you are free to believe whatever you choose.

I just find it too illogical to think that some invisible force in the sky controls everything around us. Nah-ah. I have never experienced anything supernatural, and look forward to the day I do (more than likely never to happen).

[Force]

Agnostic here. And a democrat. Rare for a lifting forum I am finding out…

[pookie]

Well, I guess a Democrat would pick the position that most resembles fence sitting.

[xXSeraphimXx]

[quote]rsg wrote:
xXSeraphimXx wrote:
Actually you could not be farther from the truth. Other then funerals,I have actually never gone to church or even opened a bible to read it. I’ve flipped through it but never found it interesting. I was not baptized until the age of 15.

My parents never pushed anything on me, they decided that as I got older if I should choose to learn about different faiths/God/spirituality I would do so on my own and they would be there to answer any questions I might need help with.

To tell you the truth I was never interested in knowing about God or even caring but, as I got older I began to question many things and wonder why I am here, whats the purpose. Through much reading and listening I have
established many beliefs but am far from having all the answers.

You should thank your parents for not forcing any of this on you, and you are free to believe whatever you choose.

I just find it too illogical to think that some invisible force in the sky controls everything around us. Nah-ah. I have never experienced anything supernatural, and look forward to the day I do (more than likely never to happen).[/quote]

I do not find it to be illogical God created this world and now it is up to mankind to decide where it goes he is not fiddling or playing tricks in our everyday lives. As a said before I believe that evolution is orderly and controlled. Primordial life was intelligently planned, implanted, and monitored instead of arising spontaneously.Mortal man is not an evolutionary accident the purpose of evolution on earth was to produce creatures of free will that can develop spiritual natures and survive their material existence, going on to have eternal spiritual lives. It is up to us.

I to have not experienced something supernatural but that does not mean I can’t, perhaps I am not ready. However I believe that through individual progress to greater God consciousness and spiritual enlightenment/growth I one day will. I will say that if you just sit around doing nothing and expect some type of personal connection I doubt it will happen.

[Force]

[quote]pookie wrote:
Well, I guess a Democrat would pick the position that most resembles fence sitting.
[/quote]

Yep. Better than just believing because you are scared into it. "It is terrible that we all die and lose everything we love; it is doubly terrible that so many human beings suffer needlessly while alive. That so much of this suffering can be directly attributed to religion; to religious hatreds, religious wars, religious delusions and religious diversions of scarce resources is what makes atheism a moral and intellectual necessity.

We read the Golden Rule and judge it to be a brilliant distillation of many of our ethical impulses. And then we come across another of Gods teachings on morality: if a man discovers on his wedding night that his bride is not a virgin, he must stone her to death on her fathers doorstep (Deuteronomy 22:13-21). -Sam Harris

[Force]

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
rsg wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
xXSeraphimXx wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
xXSeraphimXx wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
Ok here is a biggy for you believers out there!

Many of you believe in god because you cannot comprehend that our universe just happened, you believe that it must have required a much mightier power/force (god) to create it and us.

By your logic then there must have been a much more powerful force that created god, and a more powerful force that created that god.

By your logic of how something so amazingly complex must be created by another force, then there must be an infinite number of gods that are more mightier and more powerful than ‘your god’

I am interested those of you who do believe in god do you believe there is also an infinite number of gods before your god?

God is the creator and upholder of all reality, an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, infinite and eternal spirit personality. God just IS.

and you know this because…

Well Then I should add I believe.

Ok fair enough I respect that, but I am also interested why do you believe that?

Because of being brainwashed from a young age, and now having a hard time coming to grips with the fact they he/she has been lied to all along.

(I was there)

Actually you could not be farther from the truth. Other then funerals,I have actually never gone to church or even opened a bible to read it. I’ve flipped through it but never found it interesting. I was not baptized until the age of 15.

My parents never pushed anything on me, they decided that as I got older if I should choose to learn about different faiths/God/spirituality I would do so on my own and they would be there to answer any questions I might need help with.

To tell you the truth I was never interested in knowing about God or even caring but, as I got older I began to question many things and wonder why I am here, whats the purpose. Through much reading and listening I have established many beliefs but am far from having all the answers. [/quote]

I bet you weren’t reading the “Cosmos” by Carl Sagan or anything by Stephen Hawking. God explains what science cannot. Yet. According to the bible the world is 6,000 years old. So if you don’t believe in dinosaurs then the bible might be the perfect book for you…

[xXSeraphimXx]

[quote]Force wrote:
xXSeraphimXx wrote:
rsg wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
xXSeraphimXx wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
xXSeraphimXx wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
Ok here is a biggy for you believers out there!

Many of you believe in god because you cannot comprehend that our universe just happened, you believe that it must have required a much mightier power/force (god) to create it and us.

By your logic then there must have been a much more powerful force that created god, and a more powerful force that created that god.

By your logic of how something so amazingly complex must be created by another force, then there must be an infinite number of gods that are more mightier and more powerful than ‘your god’

I am interested those of you who do believe in god do you believe there is also an infinite number of gods before your god?

God is the creator and upholder of all reality, an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, infinite and eternal spirit personality. God just IS.

and you know this because…

Well Then I should add I believe.

Ok fair enough I respect that, but I am also interested why do you believe that?

Because of being brainwashed from a young age, and now having a hard time coming to grips with the fact they he/she has been lied to all along.

(I was there)

Actually you could not be farther from the truth. Other then funerals,I have actually never gone to church or even opened a bible to read it. I’ve flipped through it but never found it interesting. I was not baptized until the age of 15.

My parents never pushed anything on me, they decided that as I got older if I should choose to learn about different faiths/God/spirituality I would do so on my own and they would be there to answer any questions I might need help with.

To tell you the truth I was never interested in knowing about God or even caring but, as I got older I began to question many things and wonder why I am here, whats the purpose. Through much reading and listening I have established many beliefs but am far from having all the answers.

I bet you weren’t reading the “Cosmos” by Carl Sagan or anything by Stephen Hawking. God explains what science cannot. Yet. According to the bible the world is 6,000 years old. So if you don’t believe in dinosaurs then the bible might be the perfect book for you…
[/quote]

I am sorry, I do not understand what you are saying.