[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
Do you really think the Catholic Church would have me killed if I converted to Buddhism? Christ/God/Mary/Angels have appeared to non-believers, the thing is, they became believers and the skeptics dismissed them as insane or having been unconscious (ever hear the story of the conversion of St. Paul?). Btw, temporary insanity or unconsciousness has always been a convenient rationalization for skeptics.
[/quote]
Maybe not the Catholic Church, but if I were Muslim and told them their religion is wrong I’m moving to another I wouldn’t rate my odds of survival very high.
Why is it SO MANY people believe in things they’ve only been told to believe, but have never seen? Have you seen anything spiritual like this? If so, then fair-play to you - I’m not trying to take away anything from anyones beliefs. I merely believe people should think for themselves instead of blindly following.
I was raised Roman Catholic. Once I actually sat down read what the bible has to say cover to cover, I realised that it makes absolutely no freaking sense, whatsoever. I tried that with the Quran, and fell over laughing after a few pages.
While science doesn’t explain everything, what it does explain sure as hell makes a lot more sense than believing in magical other-worldy features. I agree there is a HUGE void of what we don’t know. I don’t mean to make this a religious discussion, though spirits(ghosts) do seem to have something in common with it.
Right now though, this planet is way too fucked up for me to believe that someone is up there “watching over us”.
what we know is finite in this infinite world - how can anyone ‘know’ everything when thinking is limited to what we have learned. so do i believe in ghosts or alien beings? don’t know - and there are some things i much prefer to stay ignorant about.
some of the greatest scientists, physicists became believers of something being bigger out there that defied logical thinking - einstein, bohr. it has been said that without faith, there is no science and vice versa.
i believe life is far too interesting to be encapsulated into fixed thinking - an open, questioning mind is a good thing to have.
[quote]lil_azn wrote:
i believe life is far too interesting to be encapsulated into fixed thinking - an open, questioning mind is a good thing to have.
[/quote]
When I used to trip a lot on LSD, I saw some crazy shit that was real. REAL, I tell ya!! But everyone else said I was either insane, unconscious or both.
[quote]RSGZ wrote:
People see and believe what they want to - how come Muslim’s or Hindu’s never claim to see Jesus Christ, or Christians never claim to have seen Buddha? They’d probably get killed for opposing their faith.
[/quote]
I wouldn’t know what Buddha looked like if I saw him so maybe I have
I swear I saw Jesus though, I was walking home after drinking some peyote and he showed me how to moon walk over water.
[quote]lil_azn wrote:
what we know is finite in this infinite world - how can anyone ‘know’ everything when thinking is limited to what we have learned. so do i believe in ghosts or alien beings? don’t know - and there are some things i much prefer to stay ignorant about.
some of the greatest scientists, physicists became believers of something being bigger out there that defied logical thinking - einstein, bohr. it has been said that without faith, there is no science and vice versa.
i believe life is far too interesting to be encapsulated into fixed thinking - an open, questioning mind is a good thing to have.
[/quote]
I sincerely hope you are not trying to categorize Einstein as a religious man… What exactly did he believe in that “defied logical thinking” ??
Also, just because someone said “without faith there is no science” does not make it true. The only truth about the statement is that someone has said it.
[quote]Typhon wrote:
RSGZ wrote:
People see and believe what they want to - how come Muslim’s or Hindu’s never claim to see Jesus Christ, or Christians never claim to have seen Buddha? They’d probably get killed for opposing their faith.
I wouldn’t know what Buddha looked like if I saw him so maybe I have
I swear I saw Jesus though, I was walking home after drinking some peyote and he showed me how to moon walk over water.[/quote]
This is an interesting point. However, no one in our time has actually seen Jesus either, yet they claim to have. Is it because there are pictures of what he supposedly looked like, and then people recreate the image based on those paintings? Much more likely it seems.
And yes, that WAS Jesus moon walking on water. He doesnt do it quite as smooth as Micheal…But, who does?
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
What is James Dean trying to tell us here? He didnt want people driving his porche after we was dead? He is able to reach across from the spirit world and KILL people so they didnt get to ride in his old car? He could conceivable explore the entire universe, search for other life forms and visit other galaxies… But he hangs around to make sure no one fucks with his car?
[/quote]
Actually, my post was probably inappropriately placed here. It had more to do with odd experiences, rather than ghosts specifically. I am not suggesting that this was James Dean’s ghost come back to kick ass. However, it is odd that you had so many deaths (including James Dean’s) connected with one car. File this one under odd experiences, not ghosts.
[quote]Yo Momma wrote:
When I used to trip a lot on LSD, I saw some crazy shit that was real. REAL, I tell ya!! But everyone else said I was either insane, unconscious or both.[/quote]
I recall there being an upside-down castle in the sky in Amsterdam…
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Watch those Ghost Hunter videos that were posted earlier. Or heck, just watch that show.
Finally, ghosts do not always speak your language. There were several Ghost Hunters International episodes where the TAPS investigators capture EVP’s of ghosts talking in a bunch of different languages and needed to have natives translate for them.
In the US it makes sense in a lot of cases because english has been the dominant language since the country’s birth.
Clearly you have not watched the show, nor have you heard any actual EVP’s. These are not just random weird noises that the human mind is interpreting, these are easy to hear and understand human voices which appear to have no visible or physical source. They are also generally not audible to the human ear, but come out quite clearly on the digital voice recorder when it’s listened to, and are often times responsive to questioning.
[/quote]
I cant speak on the genuineness of Ghost Hunters because I dont work on the show. Thats really all I can say about it, but let me ask you a few questions about their “tools”:
1 - Why can we not hear the ghosts voices directly, but we can hear them if we use a recorder? In the later instance we are hearing the voice with our ear, yes? So why should we not hear it directly the first time? Also, WHY WOULD GHOSTS CHOOSE TO COMMUNICATE THIS WAY? Recorders have only been around a very short time, were ghosts just shit out of luck if they wanted to talk to humans before that?
2 - Regarding cold spots - Again, Why would ghosts show up as cold spots? I have never walked around with a thermal camera or thermometer before, but I imagine that temperature in a room is not uniform. Being next to a cold window/fireplace/air duct will lower the temp around that object.
3 - EMF - Again, Why would humans, who dont have an EMF, suddenly acquire one upon dying?
Again, the most I can say is that its interesting. Unfortunately I am not on the set watching these things happen so its going to be difficult to accept them as genuine, especially when I know TV producers who make reality TV shows and have admitted to me they are produced beyond belief, to the point of a scripted TV show.
[quote]What would one have to do to prove a genuine paranormal phenomenon? Would Randi actually have to experience it for himself, or just see evidence?
What would you define as paranormal? And again, IMO it’s tough to say that nothing has been found credible, when there is some pretty convincing evidence out there.[/quote]
One would have to prove the phenomenon they claim to be able to perform. For instance, if you say you can fly…Well, step over to the window please. If you claim you can read someones mind… I’m thinking of a number, what is it?
Randi actually collaborates with 3rd parties to set up the experiment and then insists on NOT knowing when they take place because people swear he is altering the experiment with his negativity. I kid thee not.
What would I define as paranormal? Well, probably the same things anyone would. Ghosts, Aliens, poltergeists, psyhcics, Out of Body experiences, ESP, Angels, Demons, Possession, Astrology, psychokinesis, telepathy, mediums, etc…
Actually, my post was probably inappropriately placed here. It had more to do with odd experiences, rather than ghosts specifically. I am not suggesting that this was James Dean’s ghost come back to kick ass. However, it is odd that you had so many deaths (including James Dean’s) connected with one car. File this one under odd experiences, not ghosts.[/quote]
Your post was appropriate as it added to the overall picture of this kind of thing. However, I believe you have come to the right conclusion that is was an odd string of coincidences, and not James Dean making sure no one drove his sweet ride again. Others may beg to differ, which is perfectly fine, but if you do I just have to ask why he would do such a thing.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Watch those Ghost Hunter videos that were posted earlier. Or heck, just watch that show.
Finally, ghosts do not always speak your language. There were several Ghost Hunters International episodes where the TAPS investigators capture EVP’s of ghosts talking in a bunch of different languages and needed to have natives translate for them.
In the US it makes sense in a lot of cases because english has been the dominant language since the country’s birth.
Clearly you have not watched the show, nor have you heard any actual EVP’s. These are not just random weird noises that the human mind is interpreting, these are easy to hear and understand human voices which appear to have no visible or physical source. They are also generally not audible to the human ear, but come out quite clearly on the digital voice recorder when it’s listened to, and are often times responsive to questioning.
I cant speak on the genuineness of Ghost Hunters because I dont work on the show. Thats really all I can say about it, but let me ask you a few questions about their “tools”:
1 - Why can we not hear the ghosts voices directly, but we can hear them if we use a recorder? In the later instance we are hearing the voice with our ear, yes? So why should we not hear it directly the first time? Also, WHY WOULD GHOSTS CHOOSE TO COMMUNICATE THIS WAY? Recorders have only been around a very short time, were ghosts just shit out of luck if they wanted to talk to humans before that?
[/quote]
Actually even when it’s recorded, they aren’t simply playing it back, but are playing it through a computer. I’m really not all that familiar with why the voices get picked up by the digital recorder, but are not audible to the human ear. But, then again, the human ear is only capable of hearing a certain range of frequencies. Perhaps the frequency that produces EVP is simply not one of them.
As to why they would choose to communicate this way, perhaps they don’t have a choice. Perhaps ghosts have been trying to communicate forever and only just recently have we developed tools that allowed us to pick up on their attempted communication.
Yes, that’s true. And when you watch the thermal video (either live or being played back) there are lots of different temperatures present in a room. Standing next to an area with a draft will decrease the ambient temperature in that area. What it won’t do though is create cold humanoid shaped masses that actually move. It also wouldn’t create cold, very isolated spots where there should not be cold spots.
For instance, on one show they had several investigators have the experience that someone was sitting on their lap. Later when they looked a the thermal cam, there indeed was a cold spot on their thighs (and every other part of their body; lower legs, torso, etc… was giving a normal heat signature). That can’t be explained by an open window.
Good question, one that I don’t personally know the answer to.
I can understand your scrutiny. It’s just that the producers would really have to be some excellent illusionists, and quite dishonest to be able to pull off some of the things that I’ve seen on that show.
What I will say is that the show has provided enough evidence for me to at least reconsider the existence of ghosts (as I’ve never really had an experience with one myself).
Ok, so then you’re not really talking about ghosts, but more so psychic phenomenon. Yeah, I’m really not all that convinced that psychic phenomenon are legitimate either. I do know someone though who is a magician who likes to do things like have a bunch of people think of a number and then tell all of them what number they were thinking of. It’s probably a trick, and I’m sure there is some method to it, but it’s still pretty fun to witness.
[quote]
What would I define as paranormal? Well, probably the same things anyone would. Ghosts, Aliens, poltergeists, psyhcics, Out of Body experiences, ESP, Angels, Demons, Possession, Astrology, psychokinesis, telepathy, mediums, etc… [/quote]
Well, again there is some fairly convincing (or at least hard to write off) evidence for ghosts. I really don’t know about the rest of that list.
Though, what would you define as an OBE? Does the person have to be awake at the onset? Or do you think that lucid dreaming could potentially be an OBE? What about substances? I know that certain hallucinogens can produce OBE’s.
[quote]RSGZ wrote:
dollarbill44 wrote:
Do you really think the Catholic Church would have me killed if I converted to Buddhism? Christ/God/Mary/Angels have appeared to non-believers, the thing is, they became believers and the skeptics dismissed them as insane or having been unconscious (ever hear the story of the conversion of St. Paul?).
Btw, temporary insanity or unconsciousness has always been a convenient rationalization for skeptics.
Maybe not the Catholic Church, but if I were Muslim and told them their religion is wrong I’m moving to another I wouldn’t rate my odds of survival very high.
Why is it SO MANY people believe in things they’ve only been told to believe, but have never seen? Have you seen anything spiritual like this?
If so, then fair-play to you - I’m not trying to take away anything from anyones beliefs. I merely believe people should think for themselves instead of blindly following.[/quote]
Why is it that when someone believes in something that others don’t, it is blindly following? I don’t think religion and enlightenment are mutually exclusive. You assume that I am a blind follower who cannot think for myself because I subscribe to Christian beliefs.
Has my faith never wavered? Absolutely not! I’ve had periods where I couldn’t reconcile believing in a higher power. I’ve had periods of several years being more or less away from the church. I could have given up on religion a long time ago, if I wanted to.
I’ve read all (figuratively, of course) of the God vs No God arguments, yet somehow I still believe. I must be an uneducated fool, I guess.
In your next post, you commended someone else for posting about the virtues of being open-minded, yet you have closed yours in this regard.
Given that a large part of the Bible is an historical account of the Isrealites, you may want to check your reading comprehension. Sure there are a lot of things in it that are fantastical and some of it is allegorical.
Whether you believe in it or not, I don’t think that “it makes absolutely no freaking sense” is an accurate, educated assessment of the book.
[quote]While science doesn’t explain everything, what it does explain sure as hell makes a lot more sense than believing in magical other-worldy features. I agree there is a HUGE void of what we don’t know. I don’t mean to make this a religious discussion, though spirits(ghosts) do seem to have something in common with it.
Right now though, this planet is way too fucked up for me to believe that someone is up there “watching over us”.[/quote]
Look, I’m certainly not a Bible-thumper, and I am not here to convert you. I just want to dispel the notion that a person who believes in something that cannot be proved by human science is, by default, an unintelligent individual who is incapable of independent thought.
But enough about that. Do I believe in ghosts? I think there is a spiritual realm out there that cannot be explained by empirical methods. Skeptics always want proof. To them I say, I don’t have proof. If you know me to be a credible person, you either believe me or you don’t. It doesn’t make my day or my week either way.
Actually even when it’s recorded, they aren’t simply playing it back, but are playing it through a computer. I’m really not all that familiar with why the voices get picked up by the digital recorder, but are not audible to the human ear.
But, then again, the human ear is only capable of hearing a certain range of frequencies. Perhaps the frequency that produces EVP is simply not one of them.[/quote]
“But are not audible to the human ear”… Then why can we hear them on the recorder? And why do some people claim to be spoken too? Or are there now certain types of ghosts who can talk, some who cant, some who can talk in high frequencies, low frequencies, and just the right frequency?
[quote]
For instance, on one show they had several investigators have the experience that someone was sitting on their lap.
Later when they looked a the thermal cam, there indeed was a cold spot on their thighs (and every other part of their body; lower legs, torso, etc… was giving a normal heat signature). That can’t be explained by an open window.[/quote]
Okay, all that tells us is that for some reason there was a spot on this guys leg that was colder than the rest of his body. I’m sure I could eaaassssily fake footage like this given the equipment and a cold blanket.
I’m not saying thats what they did, but its certainly a more plausible explanation. Again, I know a TV producer that makes “reality” shows and by her accounts they are wildly fake. This does not mean that THIS show is fake, but I’d bet dimes to dollars you arent getting the whole picture.
[quote]
I can understand your scrutiny. It’s just that the producers would really have to be some excellent illusionists, and quite dishonest to be able to pull off some of the things that I’ve seen on that show.
What I will say is that the show has provided enough evidence for me to at least reconsider the existence of ghosts (as I’ve never really had an experience with one myself).
[/quote] Fair enough. That seems reasonable to me.
[quote]Ok, so then you’re not really talking about ghosts, but more so psychic phenomenon. Yeah, I’m really not all that convinced that psychic phenomenon are legitimate either.
I do know someone though who is a magician who likes to do things like have a bunch of people think of a number and then tell all of them what number they were thinking of. It’s probably a trick, and I’m sure there is some method to it, but it’s still pretty fun to witness. :)[/quote]
Right, magicians can perform seemingly amazing feats of mind reading, but its all trickery. I’ve never seen a “psychic” come CLOSE to what people like Darren Brown or Banachek can do. Not even close.
[quote]Well, again there is some fairly convincing (or at least hard to write off) evidence for ghosts. I really don’t know about the rest of that list.
Though, what would you define as an OBE? Does the person have to be awake at the onset? Or do you think that lucid dreaming could potentially be an OBE? What about substances? I know that certain hallucinogens can produce OBE’s.[/quote]
When I say Out of Body experience I’m referring to someone who genuinely claims they have left their flesh-and-bone body behind and are now traveling about this world and other realms unknown. Substances simply alter your perception of reality and the biology/chemistry of your brain, it is well known how many of these things work.
Lucid Dreaming is being aware that you are dreaming and are able to manipulate the “dream environment.” I actual think many people who are not aware of lucid dreaming may be doing so and this is where many of their claims come from, but it is hardly fantastical.
I’m talking about people who claim to ACTUALLY leave behind their body and go wandering about. I believe people think that this has happened to them via a lucid dream or other such experience, but the test is so simple to check if they are actually doing it.
I’ll write a word on a piece of paper in my house, come check it out and report back. Simple as that.
I shit you not, I heard a first hand account of someone who claimed to have a Out of body experience…wait for it…AFTER SHE GOT HIGH. She did not make any sort of connection with her substance use and the experience, never even thought of it.
[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
Why is it that when someone believes in something that others don’t, it is blindly following? I don’t think religion and enlightenment are mutually exclusive. You assume that I am a blind follower who cannot think for myself because I subscribe to Christian beliefs. [/quote]
That is not the claim. Someone is considered to “blindly” follow something when they accept a claim without evidence, or to put it another way, based on “faith.” Another way to “blindly” follow something is to accept it without looking into it (hence the blindness).
Many, many people believe in their religion without ever having really looked into it. They just want to go to heaven.
Religion, for some reason, holds faith as a high virtue, and many even take pride in the fact that they deny facts of reality and accept faith over them. THAT is blindly following.
[quote]Has my faith never wavered? Absolutely not! I’ve had periods where I couldn’t reconcile believing in a higher power. I’ve had periods of several years being more or less away from the church. I could have given up on religion a long time ago, if I wanted to.
I’ve read all (figuratively, of course) of the God vs No God arguments, yet somehow I still believe. I must be an uneducated fool, I guess.
In your next post, you commended someone else for posting about the virtues of being open-minded, yet you have closed yours in this regard. [/quote]
Its not that you are uneducated, its just that you require a different standard of evidence to accept something.
God, by its very nature (assuming he exists of course) is unfalsifiable. It is literally akin to saying there is an invisible teacup floating around mars. You cant prove it, but you also cant falsify the claim.
However, this does not make it reasonable to believe such a teacup exists. Even if I took a poll and 90% of Americans believed such a teacup exist, that would mean nothing about whether or not it actually did exist.
Then why are ghost hunters using voice recorders, EMF readings, thermal camera, regular cameras and other such EMPIRICAL, SCIENTIFIC devices?
[quote]Skeptics always want proof. To them I say, I don’t have proof. If you know me to be a credible person, you either believe me or you don’t. It doesn’t make my day or my week either way.
DB
[/quote]
Okay, there you go. This paragraph details exactly where we part ways:
“Skeptics always want proof, To them I say I dont have proof.”
Right there… You choose to believe things without proof of their existence. Using this type of thinking, ANYTHING is possible. ANYTHING. If you do not require proof before you believe in something, you must accept EVERY claim you hear. All of them.
Also, whether or not you are a credible person means NOTHING. This is a logical fallacy called the Argument from Authority. A credible person is not immune from making mistakes. Just because health advice comes from an MD does not make it true.
Facts are the ONLY things that matter. That is it. Opinions, credibility, degrees, speculation, faith… worthless.
[quote]ktennies wrote:
Lonnie123 wrote:
Here is another great video about critical thinking by Brian Dunning, creator of Skeptoid, a weekly skeptical podcast:
Its great, huh? He actually has filmed a pilot for a TV show (- YouTube) called “The Skeptologists” which is a “Ghost Hunter” type show, but with scientiests, doctors, and very skilled skeptics.
It will cover many more topics than just ghosts (Alt Medicine, Psychics, Ghosts, UFO’s, Crop Cirlces…) assuming it gets picked up.
Although the picture of Fish Oil in the beginning was a bit of a surprise. Of course it depends on what claim the sellers of fish oil are making…
Here is another funny little clip that just CANT be explained other than by ghosts:
Ghost hunters are legit.
We are mobilised from time to time to deal with “occurrences” that are recognized as ‘unacceptable’ (not palatable for the general public. Those who self-categorize as “expendable” stand to earn more. I’ve been there.
Hardcore skeptics and sensationalists are equally annoying, but sensationalists are actually funny - while the "skeptics’ are painfully boring (no offence, nurse)
in short -
Spiritual presences that do not manifest corporeally do exist and make their presence felt. The percentage of reported occurrences that are genuine and/or untampered with is pathetically low, though.
The photograph I posted initially is genuine. A real-time representation of how the spiritual presence manifested at said location at that instant.
Spirits do have moods - emotions - memories - self-awareness - although they lack the physical brain matter (for emotional centers and everything else) and no one knows how or why. It could be that our 'awareness" has little to do with whats between our ears.
But more likely (according to those who pay us), our own corporeal manifestations (our bodies) are little more than our self-awareness manifesting itself in our minds (translation:: we are what we think we are. Ghosts may have bodies that we just can’t see with our eyes)
I’ll pack my bags before nurse boy posts more boring drivel and clutters up the thread. I’ll resurface with the photograph i promised.
Why must you have someone watching "over you’. Why not just an idle observer, like a kid with an ant-farm and a microscope?
And if said observer is truly idle, does his existence matter to you?
And do you want Him to be truly idle or do you selectively ask for either interference or no-interference depending on your state of mind and being?
[quote]RSGZ wrote:
Right now though, this planet is way too fucked up for me to believe that someone is up there “watching over us”.[/quote]
