Do You Believe in Ghosts?

Off Topic
221

DB,

I think Lonnie did a good job of answering a lot of what you said/asked.

I will say one more thing - you are Catholic because you were raised that way. You remained so because of personal reasons and beliefs and that is your right. BUT, if you were raised a Muslim/Jew/Buddhist you would very likely have the same train of thought as you do now.

My point is that your beliefs are based on what you were taught by your parents/relatives/priests - these would vary greatly if you were born and raised in another part of the world.

Who is right? No one knows for sure. I do know that being an atheist/agnostic is a lot more peaceful that any other “organised religion”. Please no one tell me Stalin or Hitler were Athiest’s - that is NOT my point.

If you think I am opposed to the idea of a god then that is also wrong - I’d love for it to be true. Logical thinking and the world around me just keep telling me that it’s seems unrealistic. But I digress.

The more that science evolves, the less legs “supernatural forces” have to stand on.

222

[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
Why must you have someone watching "over you’. Why not just an idle observer, like a kid with an ant-farm and a microscope?
And if said observer is truly idle, does his existence matter to you?

And do you want Him to be truly idle or do you selectively ask for either interference or no-interference depending on your state of mind and being?

RSGZ wrote:
Right now though, this planet is way too fucked up for me to believe that someone is up there “watching over us”.

[/quote]

Because the bible says that he is “watching over you”.

What would be the point in praying and suicide bombing if the observer is just idle?

Knowing for a fact that there is a god would be great - I’d still live my life as I am - being a honest person and respecting others where I can. I don’t see what having a god there to make sure you don’t step out of line has to do with being a good person - that sounds like an excuse for bad behaviour.

223

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:

Okay, there you go. This paragraph details exactly where we part ways:

“Skeptics always want proof, To them I say I dont have proof.”

Right there… You choose to believe things without proof of their existence. Using this type of thinking, ANYTHING is possible. ANYTHING. If you do not require proof before you believe in something, you must accept EVERY claim you hear. All of them.

Also, whether or not you are a credible person means NOTHING. This is a logical fallacy called the Argument from Authority. A credible person is not immune from making mistakes. Just because health advice comes from an MD does not make it true.

Facts are the ONLY things that matter. That is it. Opinions, credibility, degrees, speculation, faith… worthless. [/quote]

Did you read my earlier ghost story? I can’t PROVE that it happened. What is the scientific explanation for two people in the same bed, having the same dream on the same night without any preparatory, prejudicial discussions beforehand?

And credibility has a shitload to do with whether or not I believe what a person tells me. Sure, credible people make mistakes, but are you going to say that a compulsive liar is no more reliable a source than someone you know to be trustworthy?

Your last paragraph gives some insight as to where you are coming from psychologically. I honestly feel sorry for people who can only rely on facts and totally disregard everything else.

Seriously, it seems like a very gloomy existence. How do you love? Feel loved? Are emotions to you anything other than a physical manifestation of a learned response to a given stimuli? Laugh all you want at me, but that’s no way I would want to live.

DB

224

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Gerg wrote:
I have never seen a ghost. But I find it interesting that people talk about theoretical higher dimensions, time travel being possible, worm holes, etc. and no one looks at them like they are crazy.

But you mention the idea of a Ghost and you’re nuts. That is because scientists are talking about theoretical stuff… As in “We dont accept this as fact because there isnt enough evidence for it yet.”

One man’s magic is another man’s science. Maybe there is an explanation for things that we don’t understand. Look up the posting that examined the 10 dimensions. How can you ever prove such a thing?

Wrong. Science is science. Magic is magic. I will most certainly grant you there are explanations for things we dont understand, that is why scientists still have jobs.

Everyone has to come up with an answer for themselves; but everything, including science, spirituality, and aetheism, boils down to the same thing: this is what I beleive with the information I have and I hope I’m right. The only wrong choice is to not allow yourself to be open to new information.

(steps off soapbox)

Science is not a belief system, it is a method of discovery. Science eliminates the middle man (human error) as much as possible, and for this reason you do not need to “hope you are right.” We did not “hope” we would hit the moon when we sent a ship to it, we landed on it exactly where we thought we would. No guess work.

There is more than one wrong choice. Of course being open to any and all possibilities is good. However, when something is so far removed from the real world as to be false, and you still accept it as real, then you are wrong.

Why dont any skeptics ever get haunted by ghosts or abducted by aliens?[/quote]

I don’t want to derail this by going off topic, so I will try and post something along this line in the near future. I’m just swamnped and can’t dig into the old resources I want to bring to the table. (i.e. books) But your argument is not without merit.

225

[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:

Did you read my earlier ghost story? I can’t PROVE that it happened. What is the scientific explanation for two people in the same bed, having the same dream on the same night without any preparatory, prejudicial discussions beforehand?

And credibility has a shitload to do with whether or not I believe what a person tells me. Sure, credible people make mistakes, but are you going to say that a compulsive liar is no more reliable a source than someone you know to be trustworthy?
[/quote]

Yes, being a credible person LENDS credence and weight to your claim, but credibility alone does not prove a claim. That is all I was trying to say earlier. Stephen Hawkins is someone I would consider a brilliant, credible, authority on cosmology, and if he told me something I would be much more inclined to believe it than if my roommate told me something.

However, if Stephan Hawkins tells me something that is patently false, all the credibility in the world wont change that fact.

[quote]
Your last paragraph gives some insight as to where you are coming from psychologically. I honestly feel sorry for people who can only rely on facts and totally disregard everything else.

Seriously, it seems like a very gloomy existence. How do you love? Feel loved? Are emotions to you anything other than a physical manifestation of a learned response to a given stimuli? Laugh all you want at me, but that’s no way I would want to live.

DB[/quote]

I cant speak for others, but I am not laughing at anyone (except TribunalDude). I think you are mistaken, albeit honest, in you world view, and am trying to show you another way of thinking about things you may not have thought of before.

I certainly had no idea what Occams Razor, Logical Fallacies, the Scientific Method really were until I got into skepticism. Couple that with the known ways people can be deceived by their own brain, the fallibility of human memory, and a few other nifty nuggets of information and you start looking at things a little different.

I dont ever recall denying things like human emotions. To use a slippery slope to connect "I need proof before I accept a to “Love is not possible because it does not have a physical manifestation” is just out of left field and has no logic behind it.

Do you take me for someone who goes out to a bar and orders a drink, and then grills the bartender to proove that they gave me a beer and not beer colored/flavored water?

I hope not. I go out on weekends, I play softball with my friends, I play computer games, I have a job… We are very much alike, I just dont believe in unsubstantiated claims.

226

[quote]RSGZ wrote:
DB,

I think Lonnie did a good job of answering a lot of what you said/asked.

I will say one more thing - you are Catholic because you were raised that way. You remained so because of personal reasons and beliefs and that is your right. BUT, if you were raised a Muslim/Jew/Buddhist you would very likely have the same train of thought as you do now.

My point is that your beliefs are based on what you were taught by your parents/relatives/priests - these would vary greatly if you were born and raised in another part of the world.

Who is right? No one knows for sure. I do know that being an atheist/agnostic is a lot more peaceful that any other “organised religion”. Please no one tell me Stalin or Hitler were Athiest’s - that is NOT my point.

If you think I am opposed to the idea of a god then that is also wrong - I’d love for it to be true. Logical thinking and the world around me just keep telling me that it’s seems unrealistic. But I digress.

The more that science evolves, the less legs “supernatural forces” have to stand on.[/quote]

Great points, especially in relation to the last sentence. The Greeks used to use Gods to explain EVERYTHING from the motion of the ocean, to the rain, to love, to fire, to the sun… It goes on and on. As more information came in we have whittled the number of Gods down to one. Soon I believe this will be too many as well.

227

[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
Ghost hunters are legit.
We are mobilised from time to time to deal with “occurrences” that are recognized as ‘unacceptable’ (not palatable for the general public. Those who self-categorize as “expendable” stand to earn more. I’ve been there.

Hardcore skeptics and sensationalists are equally annoying, but sensationalists are actually funny - while the "skeptics’ are painfully boring (no offence, nurse)

in short -

  1. Spiritual presences that do not manifest corporeally do exist and make their presence felt. The percentage of reported occurrences that are genuine and/or untampered with is pathetically low, though.

[/quote]

Hey look… We finally agree on something.

I have no doubt the PHOTO is genuine, we just have different interpretations of what it might be. I was not there when the photo was taken, do not what it was taken of, nor do I have any other information about it, therefore I am unable to make a statement about the contents of the photo. Thats really all any rational person could say about it.

Isnt it curious that spirits have the exact same kind of emotions that humans do? And they look just like us? Doesnt that interest you in the slightest?

[quote]But more likely (according to those who pay us), our own corporeal manifestations (our bodies) are little more than our self-awareness manifesting itself in our minds (translation:: we are what we think we are. Ghosts may have bodies that we just can’t see with our eyes)

I’ll pack my bags before nurse boy posts more boring drivel and clutters up the thread. I’ll resurface with the photograph i promised.[/quote]

This is probably the 3rd, if not more, time you have mentioned me being an RN. I’m not really sure the point of this line of attack, but I find it curious if nothing else… You caught me.

I studied the life sciences and then got an education in basic medical knowledge including disease processes, their manifestations, and how to treat them. I’m not really sure what bearing that has on a talk about ghosts, but it seems to be very important to you, perhaps you could clarify for me.

228

I’ve got some stuff to do tonight, and then work tomorrow, so I’ll be back later. Everyone else have fun. RSGZ hold down the fort brother.

229

Dude, get a fricking sense of humor. Its cheap…even an RN can afford it :d

230

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Isnt it curious that spirits have the exact same kind of emotions that humans do? [/quote]

Yes, it is. When did I say this was an exact science? The reptilian brain (now you see where i come in) that we all possess does not have emotional centers, not the ones causing the emotions we recognize.

But modern scientists wrongly assume that chemicals in the brain are the CAUSE of these, or so we believe (qualified spirit monitors and demonologists).

We believe that emotions are in the MIND (something related to the consciousness I mentioned in the second post, which is well explained in Eastern existentialist thought) which is not the brain.

It is the mind that (we believe) causes a ghostly manifestation IF the mind chooses to linger on rather than go to 'sleep mode".

But eastern thought suggests that there are two "minds’ (the individual and the shared) so in a sense, the spiritual presence could be the result of either the individual mind lingering on…or someone ELSE (living) forcing the person to linger on.

“Que es un fantasme?” well explored in Devil’s Backbone as well as 'what dreams may come", and
the concept of the Mind choosing to either;

  1. Linger on in the original reality
  2. Sleep/shut down
  3. Conjure up heaven/hell based on the individuals perceptions of pain and pleasure (while alive) as well as faith and justice.

[[This is also believed to be the reason Christians believe that Jesus ‘died’ for our sins. Eastern thought suggests that He did this so that our “faith” would overwhelm our feelings of guilt and fear of divine retribution and prevent our minds from conjuring up a 'personal hell" for ourselves.]]

  1. Re-incarnate into the reality of the 'living".

In a sense, ghosts exist because they force themselves to - and everything we have seen has convinced us about that.

[quote]And they look just like us? Doesnt that interest you in the slightest?
.[/quote]

To be honest what they look like depends on somethign in between what they WANT to look like and what WE expect thm to look like.

In a sense, you see what you want to see…to explain THIS, I will need to get back into a stretched out discussion on eastern existentialist thought, so lets discuss this by PM instead. I’ll send you the actual references and shit.

So anyway, back to the photograph. Give me some time…

231

[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
I honestly feel sorry for people who can only rely on facts and totally disregard everything else.
[/quote]

As do I.

I prefer to rely on deceptive lies and ill-informed opinions. Relying on facts… that would be just downright… logical.

232

Edited, better reply below

233

[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
Lonnie123 wrote:
Isnt it curious that spirits have the exact same kind of emotions that humans do?

Yes, it is. When did I say this was an exact science? The reptilian brain (now you see where i come in) that we all possess does not have emotional centers, not the ones causing the emotions we recognize.

But modern scientists wrongly assume that chemicals in the brain are the CAUSE of these, or so we believe (qualified spirit monitors and demonologists). [/quote]

So if it isnt an exact science, why do you seem to sure of the results?

What qualifies someone to be a spirit monitor or demonologist?

[quote]We believe that emotions are in the MIND (something related to the consciousness I mentioned in the second post, which is well explained in Eastern existentialist thought) which is not the brain.

It is the mind that (we believe) causes a ghostly manifestation IF the mind chooses to linger on rather than go to 'sleep mode".

But eastern thought suggests that there are two "minds’ (the individual and the shared) so in a sense, the spiritual presence could be the result of either the individual mind lingering on…or someone ELSE (living) forcing the person to linger on.

[/quote]

I’ve yet to see any convincing evidence a “mind” exists. There is a mountain of evidence to suggest that the brain is sufficient to explain our thoughts and behaviors. For instance, when a persons BRAIN structure/chemical makeup is altered during a disease like Alzheimer or Schizophrenia, predictable things happen to their THOUGHT process. I suppose you could explain this by saying the “mind” now has a broken machine to work with, but Occams razor shaves that idea off quite nicely.

Also, appealing to the mystique of the orient earns you no points in the fact department. I dont care if Einstein thought of the idea, the truth of the claims are all that matter.

[quote]“Que es un fantasme?” well explored in Devil’s Backbone as well as 'what dreams may come", and
the concept of the Mind choosing to either;

  1. Linger on in the original reality
  2. Sleep/shut down
  3. Conjure up heaven/hell based on the individuals perceptions of pain and pleasure (while alive) as well as faith and justice.

[[This is also believed to be the reason Christians believe that Jesus ‘died’ for our sins. Eastern thought suggests that He did this so that our “faith” would overwhelm our feelings of guilt and fear of divine retribution and prevent our minds from conjuring up a 'personal hell" for ourselves.]]

  1. Re-incarnate into the reality of the 'living".

In a sense, ghosts exist because they force themselves to - and everything we have seen has convinced us about that.

And they look just like us? Doesnt that interest you in the slightest?
.

To be honest what they look like depends on somethign in between what they WANT to look like and what WE expect thm to look like.

In a sense, you see what you want to see…to explain THIS, I will need to get back into a stretched out discussion on eastern existentialist thought, so lets discuss this by PM instead. I’ll send you the actual references and shit.

So anyway, back to the photograph. Give me some time…
[/quote]

That ghosts look like what THEY want to look like and what WE want them to look like is not possible. The two are mutually exclusive.

Again we agree… The human mind sees what it wants to see. The reason you see ghosts is because you want to see ghosts. However, I cannot NOT see things that are there by choice.

About the photo, what exactly do you need time to do? Photochop a face into it? Throw a nursing hat and a stethoscope onto it while you are at it :slight_smile:

And a final question, which I should have asked earlier:

  • What would it take to change your mind?

If the answer is “Nothing would change my mind” then we are effectively done talking. I am willing to be convinced of ANYTHING provided there is sound proof for it. Holding to that principle though, it is necessary to withhold my belief for those claims which have not met that standard.

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OMG!

Do you guys see what I see?

235

[quote]RSGZ wrote:
OMG!

Do you guys see what I see?[/quote]

I shit thee not… I can genuinely see what appears to be the risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ the Almighty. Thank you for this compelling evidence RSGZ… I cant explain this any other way than to say God is making his presence known to me in this photo.

236

[quote]ktennies wrote:
dollarbill44 wrote:
I honestly feel sorry for people who can only rely on facts and totally disregard everything else.

As do I.

I prefer to rely on deceptive lies and ill-informed opinions. Relying on facts… that would be just downright… logical.[/quote]

Best comment yet.

237

[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
ktennies wrote:
dollarbill44 wrote:
I honestly feel sorry for people who can only rely on facts and totally disregard everything else.

As do I.

I prefer to rely on deceptive lies and ill-informed opinions. Relying on facts… that would be just downright… logical.

Best comment yet.[/quote]

Not really. Lonnie had many far better comments. This is just a a quick, sarcastic response that doesn’t leave any room but for absolutes. Then again, that was the point I was making. I don’t have time today to continue debating the subject, so I will be brief. I don’t espouse denying facts and relying on lies and ill-informed decisions. In fact, my job requires me to do the exact opposite. My opinion is that there is a lot more to life than cold, hard facts. Humans interact mostly in the gray, non-factual area. Let’s say you have a friend (hypothetically, of course, because you can’t prove that you have one) and the two of you are supposed to meet for a beer. He doesn’t show, but he calls and tells you that he’s not coming because ____ (fill in the blanks). Do you make him prove it? Do you throw out what he tells you because he can’t prove it? Or do you believe him and accept his apology?

This is a simple example. Given more time, I know I can come up with better ones. My point is that there is a lot more out there than facts and a lot of times we have to rely on imperfect information or (gasp) INFORMED opinions. There isn’t always time to get all of the facts. Some people have developed very reliable gut feelings.

DB

238

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
RSGZ wrote:
OMG!

Do you guys see what I see?

I shit thee not… I can genuinely see what appears to be the risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ the Almighty. Thank you for this compelling evidence RSGZ… I cant explain this any other way than to say God is making his presence known to me in this photo.[/quote]

I think your flippant disrespect and self-assured “right thinking” only shows your inflated sense of yourself. You have presumeably figured it all out and obviously feel you are an authority on how all things in the universe work and interact. I can assure you that there are many people who were and are more intelligent than you, who have come to the conclusion that there must be a God.

You better hope that you are right.

239

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
RSGZ wrote:
OMG!

Do you guys see what I see?

I shit thee not… I can genuinely see what appears to be the risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ the Almighty. Thank you for this compelling evidence RSGZ… I cant explain this any other way than to say God is making his presence known to me in this photo.[/quote]

Well, God tricked your ass, because that dude ain’t Jesus!!

Jesus was of Jewish parentage and so was clearly of semitic appearance. That means he was most likely brown skinned. The style of men’s hair at that time was Roman, so his hair was most likely cut short.

When the Church contracted artists of the middle ages to depict Jesus, the Jews were despised as an inferior race of people. To paint or sculpt Jesus as a Jew would have been unthinkable, hence the the Aryan look.

240

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
So if it isnt an exact science, why do you seem to sure of the results?[/quote]

What results? Our problem is how we interpret the “presence” communicating with us. Your problem is how you interpret the Hi-definition photograph I posted afew pages back.

We undergo a period of severe fasting and meditation during which we
astrally project ourselves and communicate with the citizens of the astral plane. While our material bodies are in a state of waste and hunger, our astral bodies are free to engage in debauchery in astral space. Those of us who choose to return to the material plane are then trained in the secret arts of the ancient reptilians who inhabited the planet and killed the dinosaurs and will exterminate the cockroach race in the 22nd century. After a few years of self reflection and mixed martial arts, we are trained to speak in tongues and a variety of chinese dialects. After that period, we are absorbed into the master-school of psychodemonologists for a period of 4 years. During this, we learn the 56 secret arts which i will not reveal and spend 2 years in residency. Those who complete the required credits and submit the dissertations are allowed to graduate magna cum laude and practise the twin subjects of clinical demonology and neo-patho-demonology (differs slightly as I will reveal in later messages) eitehr individually or as part of a team, the dynamics of which i have described in my earlier messages.