One night I was driving home and I saw the ghost of a coyote running on it’s back two feet at 45 mph and push a car into a fucking ravine!!
Ghosts of coyotes do this kind of thing for fun. I caught it all on tape and would like to show you guys, but unfortunately it’s all classified.
[quote]RSGZ wrote:
Lonnie123 wrote:
Look, its very simple. I will write a word on a piece of paper tonight. You astral project over to my place and tell me what the word is. You get it right, I’ll be much more inclined to believe in astral projection. You get it wrong, you were mistaken. Fair enough?
Is it, antidisestablishmentarianism?
You see, I’m psychic - which means I already know what you were going to right on that piece of paper.[/quote]
Damn… Foiled by another form of woo. I should have seen it coming (I’m guessing you did, right?)
Oh gosh, what have i done? haha
the thread is almost 9 pages long, with so much content. Very thought provoking.
Lonnie, I like the way your critical mind works. Do you think any logical falacies have come into play (here) in this thread?
If there are human ghosts & animal ghosts, I wonder if objects, such as a chair, table or iPod has an after life? That info is prolly classified by SOMEBODY, SOMEWHERE
Just a couple thoughts.
Lonnie.
First, physics is definitely not a concrete theory. There are also several different theories on physics; newtonian, quantum, etc… and numerous yet to be either proven or disproven theories in the realm of physics. Science is actually finding that newtonian physics (which is the way most of us generally think about physics) are actually most likely not correct in many ways.
The thoery of ghosts is not a violation of the theory of physics. Just perhaps a theory which has yet to be proven or disproven.
Secondly, what would you consider evidence of the existence of ghosts? Pictures? There are plenty out there. Video? There is also a fair amount of that. Audio? Yup, lots of that as well. Thermal imaging? Yup. And that doesn’t even include personal experience.
Watch those Ghost Hunter videos that were posted earlier. Or heck, just watch that show.
Finally, ghosts do not always speak your language. There were several Ghost Hunters International episodes where the TAPS investigators capture EVP’s of ghosts talking in a bunch of different languages and needed to have natives translate for them.
In the US it makes sense in a lot of cases because english has been the dominant language since the country’s birth.
Isn’t the electromagnetic spectrum essentially huge? What I mean is that we can only see/experience a certain amount of light?
Therefore we wouldn’t be able to see ghosts?
Also haven’t Quantum Physicists determined that matter can exist in the same place as other matter as long as their in different states.
Man…Science is still very, very primitive. We still don’t really understand how the universe was created and a lot of scientists don’t even believe in aliens(but if you look at the odds in terms of how many galaxies we know of there must be).
[quote]TheOlympian wrote:
Oh gosh, what have i done? haha
the thread is almost 9 pages long, with so much content. Very thought provoking.
[/quote]
This is a sweet thread, you should be proud.
I believe that there are things that our minds can’t understand, or actually I believe that our mind could and does understand its just we’re not able to use or acess that part of our mind. Sometimes things don’t make sense to us, especially weird things such as ghost, ufo’s, etc.
Who is to say that if I said the star spangled banner backwards at 1223am on tuesdsay while standing in my kitchen sink that I wouldn’t start to float across the kitchen, or gain some weird ability??..hmmm you don’t know because you’ve never tried it as silly as it may be.
Point is I guess sometimes you have to think outside the box to come up with solutions, ideas, or technologies. I think to some point we have become to analytical in our thinking. I think if an individual is able to put what he can reason as all he can accept aside, then much more possibilties come into existence.
[quote]TheOlympian wrote:
Oh gosh, what have i done? haha
the thread is almost 9 pages long, with so much content. Very thought provoking.
Lonnie, I like the way your critical mind works. Do you think any logical falacies have come into play (here) in this thread?
If there are human ghosts & animal ghosts, I wonder if objects, such as a chair, table or iPod has an after life? That info is prolly classified by SOMEBODY, SOMEWHERE[/quote]
Logical fallacies… Sure. Argument from ignorace comes to mind quite readily: “I cant imagine what else it could have been…” or “I cant think of another explanation…” Well, thats all well and good, but that doesnt mean there isnt one.
Well, iPods and chairs dont “die”… they just become trash. Humans just cant fathom an idea of not being here any more, so we use ghosts as a way to an after life. I wonder if Christians believe in Christian ghosts… Shouldnt their spirit ascend quickly to heaven?
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Just a couple thoughts.
Lonnie.
First, physics is definitely not a concrete theory. There are also several different theories on physics; newtonian, quantum, etc… and numerous yet to be either proven or disproven theories in the realm of physics. Science is actually finding that newtonian physics (which is the way most of us generally think about physics) are actually most likely not correct in many ways.
The thoery of ghosts is not a violation of the theory of physics. Just perhaps a theory which has yet to be proven or disproven.[/quote]
Again, I dont know where I implied that ghosts violate the laws of physics, but it wasnt my intention. I dont hold that view under most circumstances.
On physics… The WHOLE of physics is indeed not settled or concrete, but there are ideas inside the realm of the science we call physics that are established quite well. So well as to be called fact or law. This really has no bearing on ghosts other than to say things can be proven quite well.[quote]
Secondly, what would you consider evidence of the existence of ghosts? Pictures? There are plenty out there. Video? There is also a fair amount of that. Audio? Yup, lots of that as well. Thermal imaging? Yup. And that doesn’t even include personal experience.
Watch those Ghost Hunter videos that were posted earlier. Or heck, just watch that show.
Finally, ghosts do not always speak your language. There were several Ghost Hunters International episodes where the TAPS investigators capture EVP’s of ghosts talking in a bunch of different languages and needed to have natives translate for them.
In the US it makes sense in a lot of cases because english has been the dominant language since the country’s birth.[/quote]
Shows like ghosts hunters are heavily produced to achieve a desired outcome. If you think they are “real” you are fooling yourself. Oh yeah, the contestants on MTV dating shows are also really in love.
Look…Set a shitty tape recorder out and hit the record button and you will catch all kinds of weird noices. The human mind will attempt to make sense of them and ANYTHING that even resembles a voice or a word will get picked up. This is behind alot of the “back masking” phenomenon in the music industry.
What would I consider good evidence? Unfortunately with the advent of computer technology, photos and videos are basically out. I would like to see a ghost that is reliable viewed by human eyes. Examined to be genuine by people who do not accept such things as fact without a seconds notice.
This sounds a tad unreasonable I will grant you, but given the fact that the same ghosts tend to be seen over and over again at the same place (assuming you know to look for the ghost…), I dont think its impossible. I dated a girl who’s family was totally credulous and we stayed on the Queen Mary one year, magically their room had all sorts of spooky shit happen and mind had none.
Also, I knew people who claim to be able to talk to ghosts and get them to do things in the physical world. Well, if thats your claim, lets pony up. I’ll lock the front door and stand on one side and have a person/camera on the outside.
If your ghost can unlock the door and let you in I’d be much more likely to accept something is going on. Or hell, just move things around while I am there to witness it.
I’d like to see claims stand up to the scrutiny of both scientists and magicians, as odd as that sounds. Magicans are well known to be great skeptics because they know/can figure out all the little tricks being used by supposed “ghost hunters” and physicist can explain why finding a “cold spot” or an area of slightly active EMF activity does NOT mean a ghost.
James Randi offers 1 million dollars to anyone who can prove a paranormal phenomenon to be genuine under appropriate conditions. No one has won the money in 10 years even though it is a well known prize in the community.
Ghosts are very difficult because they are so often a fleeting, unique, unrepeatable experience. I suspect this is because the brain quickly comes back to reality and finally fills in the gaps that need to be filled in. Things like Big Foot, Remote Viewing, Psychics, and Aliens are much easier to deal with.
However, when we take the “paranormal” as a collective and find nothing credible, its generally safe to assume that the rest of it is bunk as well. Thats a tad bit of a logical fallacy, but the burden of proof is on the claim, not the lack of a claim.
[quote]gckid74 wrote:
I believe that there are things that our minds can’t understand, or actually I believe that our mind could and does understand its just we’re not able to use or acess that part of our mind. Sometimes things don’t make sense to us, especially weird things such as ghost, ufo’s, etc.
Who is to say that if I said the star spangled banner backwards at 1223am on tuesdsay while standing in my kitchen sink that I wouldn’t start to float across the kitchen, or gain some weird ability??..hmmm you don’t know because you’ve never tried it as silly as it may be.
Point is I guess sometimes you have to think outside the box to come up with solutions, ideas, or technologies. I think to some point we have become to analytical in our thinking. I think if an individual is able to put what he can reason as all he can accept aside, then much more possibilties come into existence.[/quote]
Richard Dawkins has a great video called “Queerer than we can imagine” (look it up, seriously) which talks about how not only is the world stranger than we DO imagine, it is stranger than we CAN imagine because our brain evolved to deal with the world we interact in. Medium size objects moving as slow speeds. Who could have possible conceived of bacteria, or near light speed travel time dilation before it was discovered? UFO’s do not even begin to scratch this category. We are well equipped to handle seeing a large object flying in the sky.
Having said that, we must live in reality. 2+2=4, okay? Its never going to equal 5. It just isnt. It doesnt matter if you sing the star spangled banner and play the trumpet section with your ass, it wont change that. There is a reason mathematicians dont sit around all day trying to make it work. It would be a colossal waste of time.
Yes, think outside the box. Yes, go against the grain. But dont deny MOUNTAINS of EVIDENCE in the process. Do I think that there is life on other planets somewhere in the universe? Sure, odds are good. Do I think they have visited earth, abducted its people, and put probes in their asses? Not a chance in hell.
Also, If ghosts were real, why arent they just all over the planet? What makes someone turn into a ghost? Why isnt my grandmother visiting me every night for coffee and yours visiting you every night? Why isnt every pet I’ve ever had just hanging out with me in ghost form… I mean, what happens to them when they die? Ghosts like the hang around here on Earth right? And they look just like they did when they were alive, yes? Then where are all the ant ghosts? The bee ghosts? bacterial ghosts? bird ghosts? Tiger ghosts? Surely they have “unfinished business” just like we do right? Wouldnt it be cool to study the ghosts of extinct species? Lets get a few of them in the lab.
I hear you mate.
Think of all the parents that would love to see their kids one more time, the parents who lost their child(ren), surely they would dearly love to see their mothers & fathers one more time. The widow that lost her partner, she’d love to spend time with him.
How come we only see some ghosts? That’s assuming, that they are there. Maybe they can all visualize themselves to us, but not all of them want to. Please see my above paragraph. Maybe it takes so much energy for them to become known, that they can’t do it. But, since ghosts are dead, obviously running out of energy isn’t fatal haha
[quote]TheOlympian wrote:
I hear you mate.
Think of all the parents that would love to see their kids one more time, the parents who lost their child(ren), surely they would dearly love to see their mothers & fathers one more time. The widow that lost her partner, she’d love to spend time with him.
How come we only see some ghosts? That’s assuming, that they are there. Maybe they can all visualize themselves to us, but not all of them want to. Please see my above paragraph. Maybe it takes so much energy for them to become known, that they can’t do it. But, since ghosts are dead, obviously running out of energy isn’t fatal haha[/quote]
That sounds like a ton of excuse making in the second paragraph. Maybe this and maybe that…Or maybe they dont exist and thats why you cant see them. Just a thought.
If anyone is interested in furthering their critical thinking, I highly recommend looking up The Skeptics Guide to the Universe on iTunes or in google. Check out a few episodes and you will see what being “a skeptic” is all about.
tribunaldude is like the guy that claims to deadlift 650lbs but doesn’t have a camera of any kind.
Not that posting a grainy, pixelated and blurred photo would change any reasonable thinking persons mind.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING.
Just like there is no santa, no easter bunny, no god, no little green men, no fairies and certainly no ghosts. All religions are peoples ways of dealing with life and death and a large number of them are destroying the very planet we live on.
People see and believe what they want to - how come Muslim’s or Hindu’s never claim to see Jesus Christ, or Christians never claim to have seen Buddha? They’d probably get killed for opposing their faith.
Believe what you want to, but don’t expect us to think you’re sane.
Here is another great video about critical thinking by Brian Dunning, creator of Skeptoid, a weekly skeptical podcast:
http://herebedragonsmovie.com/
40 minutes long. Well worth it.
James Randi:
He’s dispelled tons of these so called “truths”.
He also carries around a cheque for $1 000 000 to give to anyone who could prove anything paranormal or supernatural. I think 15 years now - and he’s still got the cheque.
What don’t you prove him wrong, and get rich in the process?
Ha! Genius! I should have known…
I’ve always despised that word. A completely useless conjugate of other, ugly locutions that “smart” kids use to impress their peers.
[quote]RSGZ wrote:
James Randi:
He’s dispelled tons of these so called “truths”.
He also carries around a cheque for $1 000 000 to give to anyone who could prove anything paranormal or supernatural. I think 15 years now - and he’s still got the cheque.
What don’t you prove him wrong, and get rich in the process?[/quote]
A kindred spirit and fellow skeptic right here on T-Nation huh?
The million dollars actually goes off the market in 2 years (it would have been a dozen years at that time). The foundation feels they can better put the money to use rather than have it sit in a fund. So all you ghost hunters better get on the ball.
I’m just hoping to reach a few of the people in the middle of the road here, no amount of evidence will convince the true believers.
[quote]First, physics is definitely not a concrete theory. There are also several different theories on physics; newtonian, quantum, etc… and numerous yet to be either proven or disproven theories in the realm of physics. Science is actually finding that newtonian physics (which is the way most of us generally think about physics) are actually most likely not correct in many ways.
The thoery of ghosts is not a violation of the theory of physics. Just perhaps a theory which has yet to be proven or disproven.
Secondly, what would you consider evidence of the existence of ghosts? Pictures? There are plenty out there. Video? There is also a fair amount of that. Audio? Yup, lots of that as well. Thermal imaging? Yup. And that doesn’t even include personal experience.
Watch those Ghost Hunter videos that were posted earlier. Or heck, just watch that show.
Finally, ghosts do not always speak your language. There were several Ghost Hunters International episodes where the TAPS investigators capture EVP’s of ghosts talking in a bunch of different languages and needed to have natives translate for them.
In the US it makes sense in a lot of cases because english has been the dominant language since the country’s birth.[/quote]
Physical theories are logical constructions that build on previous knowledge to offer a concrete explanation of various phenomena. Supposed “theories” on the existence of ghosts are conjecture built on a bed of hick stories and old wives tales.
Nothing is physically impossible. But if something is sufficiently improbable we can disregard it.
Ghost Hunter is not hunting for ghosts… it’s hunting for ratings. They aren’t going to get many viewers if every episode ends with he caption “And as we expected… the story was a crock of shit”.
Also there are not several different theories on physics. There are several different theories IN physics… each applicable in its own situation. One would not use newtonian physics when dealing with atomic interactions; one would not use quantum mechanics when examining a bus taking a corner. Sure we’re still searching for that that magic theory of everything… but look at everything we’ve achieved without it. The mark of a good theory is that it explains and implies more than is asked of it. Ghosts don’t build spaceships…
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Just a couple thoughts.
Lonnie.
First, physics is definitely not a concrete theory. There are also several different theories on physics; newtonian, quantum, etc… and numerous yet to be either proven or disproven theories in the realm of physics. Science is actually finding that newtonian physics (which is the way most of us generally think about physics) are actually most likely not correct in many ways.
The thoery of ghosts is not a violation of the theory of physics. Just perhaps a theory which has yet to be proven or disproven.
Again, I dont know where I implied that ghosts violate the laws of physics, but it wasnt my intention. I dont hold that view under most circumstances.
On physics… The WHOLE of physics is indeed not settled or concrete, but there are ideas inside the realm of the science we call physics that are established quite well. So well as to be called fact or law. This really has no bearing on ghosts other than to say things can be proven quite well.
[/quote]
Agreed.
Clearly you have not watched the show, nor have you heard any actual EVP’s. These are not just random weird noises that the human mind is interpreting, these are easy to hear and understand human voices which appear to have no visible or physical source. They are also generally not audible to the human ear, but come out quite clearly on the digital voice recorder when it’s listened to, and are often times responsive to questioning.
Again, you should really watch Ghost Hunters and not write it off so quickly, because this is basically what the whole show is about. They go to places where ghosts are known to frequent/haunt and try to catch physical evidence of their presence. They use everything from video cameras, to still cameras, to digital voice recorders, and EMF (electromagnetic field) detectors to try to gather evidence. They also try to disprove or explain away the claims that people make about the ghosts (like if a certain ghost supposedly likes to knock a stool of the bar, they will try to see if anything else might explain this happening).
If you look (I think that clip I posted has a lot of good evidence) you can find some pretty hard to write off evidence. Things like flash lights turning themselves on (only when asked mind you), picture frames moving on their own, and that’s just the clips on youtube.
Yeah, I’m not talking about stuff like that. I’m not saying that I’m 100% sure there aren’t any such people, but I’ve never seen someone who could do something like that.
Cold spots or slightly active EMF activity doesn’t mean there is paranormal activity going on, but cold spots (picked up by infra-red cameras) where there should not be cold spots and drastically increased EMF readings which increase in conjunction with other paranormal activity (like EVP, audible noise, or physical manipulation) would be a little harder to explain away.
What would one have to do to prove a genuine paranormal phenomenon? Would Randi actually have to experience it for himself, or just see evidence?
[quote]
Ghosts are very difficult because they are so often a fleeting, unique, unrepeatable experience. I suspect this is because the brain quickly comes back to reality and finally fills in the gaps that need to be filled in. Things like Big Foot, Remote Viewing, Psychics, and Aliens are much easier to deal with.
However, when we take the “paranormal” as a collective and find nothing credible, its generally safe to assume that the rest of it is bunk as well. Thats a tad bit of a logical fallacy, but the burden of proof is on the claim, not the lack of a claim.[/quote]
What would you define as paranormal? And again, IMO it’s tough to say that nothing has been found credible, when there is some pretty convincing evidence out there.
[quote]RSGZ wrote:
tribunaldude is like the guy that claims to deadlift 650lbs but doesn’t have a camera of any kind.
Not that posting a grainy, pixelated and blurred photo would change any reasonable thinking persons mind.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING.
Just like there is no santa, no easter bunny, no god, no little green men, no fairies and certainly no ghosts. All religions are peoples ways of dealing with life and death and a large number of them are destroying the very planet we live on.
People see and believe what they want to - how come Muslim’s or Hindu’s never claim to see Jesus Christ, or Christians never claim to have seen Buddha? They’d probably get killed for opposing their faith.
Believe what you want to, but don’t expect us to think you’re sane.
[/quote]
Do you really think the Catholic Church would have me killed if I converted to Buddhism? Christ/God/Mary/Angels have appeared to non-believers, the thing is, they became believers and the skeptics dismissed them as insane or having been unconscious (ever hear the story of the conversion of St. Paul?). Btw, temporary insanity or unconsciousness has always been a convenient rationalization for skeptics.
I believe science explains a lot of what occurs, but not all of it. I have faith in God and the 8 pounds 6 ounces baby Jesus, new born, not even spoken a word yet, that covers a good portion of the rest. I have incomprehension of the unkown to fill in what isn’t covered by the other two. But at least I acknowledge this massive void of the unknown, whereas I don’t think everyone on here does.
DB