Some real nut-jobs on the internet…
[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
Lonnie123 wrote:
As I asked before, why dont skeptics ever get abducted…?
I’m not supporting or discrediting that alien abductions exist, but, if a skeptic were to be abducted or see a ghost or have some other paranormal event happen, that person would cease to be a skeptic, would they not? Hence the reason you can’t find a skeptic who has been abducted. If someone were to claim having been a skeptic, the other skeptics would be skeptical about his professed skepticism.[/quote]
A skeptic is not someone who doubts, but someone who requires (good)evidence before they will accept a claim as fact. I’m open to the idea that ghosts exist, I’ve just never seen anything but “orb” photos (an artifact created by the flash of a camera)and “cold spots” and eye witness testimony, which is notoriously unreliable. When I see hard evidence for a ghosts I’ll accept their existence as fact, I wont need to “believe”
However, if I were “actually” abducted by aliens, I would have to rule out the much more likely possibilities that I was dreaming, in some altered mental state due to a substance, or a number of other possibilities.
[quote]Another question along these lines, since the discussion of the laws of physics has come up, why can’t the laws of physics be violated, since the laws as we know them have been codified by humans? Perhaps we just haven’t discovered that a given law has a loophole.
After all, scientific laws are recorded after a hypothesis has been repeatedly tested in various ways with the actual result always falling within the hypothesized range of values. Is there not a possibility that there is another way of testing that was not considered due to an incomplete understanding of the possibilities of the universe?
I think open-mindedness is a positive trait, even among scientists. Cynicism and skepticism can also be positive traits. The fool is the person that is over-reliant on any of the three.
DB[/quote]
Again I think you misunderstand what skepticism is. Its critical thinking, its evidence based, its science based thinking. It is NOT cynicism.
The laws of physics are not simply something humans came up with, but something we have discovered about the true nature of the universe. They have withstood test after test after test and continue to every day. It is so incredibly unlikely that something will break the laws of physics that any reasonable person can say it is impossible. The fact that we are able to predict things with such precision tells us we are right.
If a person says that they can travel faster than the speed of light… Well, sure, lets test them. But if I were a betting man I would put my entire net worth on him failing. I’m sure you would too.
[quote]entheogens wrote:
For my part, I believe in ghosts, having had a few experiences myself, but I am not sure what they are. I do not necessarily agree that they are disembodied spirits of those who have passed on. They may be spirits, I am just not sure.
I have read a few things by Colin Wilson who writes intelligently on the subject.
In any case, I found the below story to be interesting. It appears in Wilson’s book, “Mysteries”. Obviously, it could all be explained away with the word, “coincidences”. Enjoy:
"The Porsche racing car in which film star James Dean was killed in 1955 seemed to have the power to cause accidents even when dismantled. Bought by a garage owner, George Barris, it slipped as it was being unloaded from the breakdown truck and broke both a mechanic’s legs. The engine was sold to a doctor, who was killed when the car in which it was placed went out of control during a race.
Oddly enough, another car in the race contained the drive shaft from the Porsche; its driver was injured when the car turned over. The battered shell of Dean’s car was used in a display on Highway Safety; in Sacramento it fell off its mounting and broke a teenager’s hip. Weeks later, en route to another display, the the truck carrying it was involved in an accident; the driver was thrown out and killed by Dean’s car as it rolled off the back.
A racing driver who bought the heavy duty tires from the car was almost killed when both tires exploded simultaneously, causing the car to swerve off the road. In Oregon, the truck carrying the car slipped its handbrake and crashed into a store. In New Orleans in 1959, it broke into eleven pieces while on stationary supports. Finally, in 1960, it finished when being sent by train back to Los Angeles…"
[/quote]
Okay… Lets just go ahead and assume ghosts are real and that they are the spirits of humans (how convenient you never get attacked by the ghost of a dead bear or lion).
What is James Dean trying to tell us here? He didnt want people driving his porche after we was dead? He is able to reach across from the spirit world and KILL people so they didnt get to ride in his old car? He could conceivable explore the entire universe, search for other life forms and visit other galaxies… But he hangs around to make sure no one fucks with his car?
[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
RhunDraco wrote:
dollarbill44 wrote:
Is there not a possibility that there is another way of testing that was not considered due to an incomplete understanding of the possibilities of the universe?
What might this other way of testing be and how do we verify its results?
My point was that humans might not have a complete enough understanding yet to know what other testing methods may exist. That is where open-mindedness comes into play.
I believe you said something along the lines of open-mindedness being stupid when it means believing in something that goes against the laws of physics (my apologies if this wasn’t you or wasn’t exactly what you said).
One of my points was that we may not have a great enough understanding to entirely dismiss the idea that our laws are incomplete.
Maybe we’re right and there are no other means of testing and our laws are truly the laws of the universe. I just don’t think we’ve got it all covered as much as we think we have.
DB[/quote]
“Its great to keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out.”
I’m not really sure which laws you are questioning, but the fact that they have been elevated to the status of a law means they have been so thoroughly proven by both math and physics that to deny them would be absurd.
Sure, maybe…maybe there is something we missed, but the chances of that being the case are infinitely small that it can pretty much be discounted.
There are many things we dont know, this is true. But the things that we do know are so well established that it would be foolish to think they are false.
[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
No. thats the face of a spirit we “spoke” to in Bethlehem, PA earlier this year. We have a video of it as well but I am not going to upload it. I have some other pics of it as it changed mood, and ill be happy to share them.
[/quote]
Funny how these spirits always speak YOUR language, isnt it? How curious that spirits should have “moods” just like humans do, and that you would be able to recognize when they change moods.
I also have plenty of videos of ghosts, and I have a video of me speaking to Jesus Christ last week (he even turned some water into wine on the video). I have this great clip of me soaring over mountain tops with my magical sneakers too… But I’m not going to post them.
Since you refuse to share the video, please entertain us with the pictures of the “spirit changing its mood.”
Thats why I used the quotes “”. A spirit cannot talk to people the same way as we can, since it doesn’t have vocan cords. Anything else? And i call BS on you meeting my homeboy JC. When we smoked pot together last weekend, he didn’t even mention you.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
tribunaldude wrote:
No. thats the face of a spirit we “spoke” to in Bethlehem, PA earlier this year. We have a video of it as well but I am not going to upload it. I have some other pics of it as it changed mood, and ill be happy to share them.
Funny how these spirits always speak YOUR language, isnt it? How curious that spirits should have “moods” just like humans do, and that you would be able to recognize when they change moods.
I also have plenty of videos of ghosts, and I have a video of me speaking to Jesus Christ last week (he even turned some water into wine on the video). I have this great clip of me soaring over mountain tops with my magical sneakers too… But I’m not going to post them.
Since you refuse to share the video, please entertain us with the pictures of the “spirit changing its mood.” [/quote]
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
dollarbill44 wrote:
Lonnie123 wrote:
As I asked before, why dont skeptics ever get abducted…?
I’m not supporting or discrediting that alien abductions exist, but, if a skeptic were to be abducted or see a ghost or have some other paranormal event happen, that person would cease to be a skeptic, would they not? Hence the reason you can’t find a skeptic who has been abducted. If someone were to claim having been a skeptic, the other skeptics would be skeptical about his professed skepticism.
A skeptic is not someone who doubts, but someone who requires (good)evidence before they will accept a claim as fact. I’m open to the idea that ghosts exist, I’ve just never seen anything but “orb” photos (an artifact created by the flash of a camera)and “cold spots” and eye witness testimony, which is notoriously unreliable. When I see hard evidence for a ghosts I’ll accept their existence as fact, I wont need to “believe”
However, if I were “actually” abducted by aliens, I would have to rule out the much more likely possibilities that I was dreaming, in some altered mental state due to a substance, or a number of other possibilities.
Another question along these lines, since the discussion of the laws of physics has come up, why can’t the laws of physics be violated, since the laws as we know them have been codified by humans? Perhaps we just haven’t discovered that a given law has a loophole.
After all, scientific laws are recorded after a hypothesis has been repeatedly tested in various ways with the actual result always falling within the hypothesized range of values. Is there not a possibility that there is another way of testing that was not considered due to an incomplete understanding of the possibilities of the universe?
I think open-mindedness is a positive trait, even among scientists. Cynicism and skepticism can also be positive traits. The fool is the person that is over-reliant on any of the three.
DB
Again I think you misunderstand what skepticism is. Its critical thinking, its evidence based, its science based thinking. It is NOT cynicism.
The laws of physics are not simply something humans came up with, but something we have discovered about the true nature of the universe. They have withstood test after test after test and continue to every day. It is so incredibly unlikely that something will break the laws of physics that any reasonable person can say it is impossible. The fact that we are able to predict things with such precision tells us we are right.[/quote]
The laws of physics have absolutely been observed and codified by humans, unless you want to posit that they were given to us by some other, more intelligent being. The fact that we have yet to observe an anomoly during a test that contradicts these laws doesn’t mean that the possibility doesn’t exist that it can happen. What then happens to the codified law? It gets changed to include that latest anomoly. Taking it further, what if someone or something were to come up with a way to manipulate the physical world in a way we never thought possible beforehand because we didn’t have a full understanding of what it takes to test and/or observe the occurrence? Just because something isn’t feasible to us now doesn’t mean it isn’t feasible to a more intelligent being. I firmly believe that there is a hell of a lot more out in the universe that we can’t explain than what we have been able to explain thus far.
Humanity has made quantum leaps throughout history that have forever altered the future. A lot of these advances were unintended consequences of actions undertaken for a different purpose, but nonetheless created a “whoa, what just happened? See if you can do it again” moment that completely changed the way we look at things. I don’t think we’ve exhausted the supply of these kinds of moments. Now, can I scientifically prove that this will happen in the future? No. But in 1700, could anyone have proven the possibility of future space travel? They could have dreamt about it, but actually proven it?
The greatest scientific minds in history have been the ones that dared to go against the conventional scientific theories of their day.
DB
I can’t post the video because its classified. I will post the pictures as soon as I can. I’l also put up some vids my buds captured of poltergeists (the main type of presences found in the midwest).
I suppose you do not believe in Astral projection either? You skeptics are amusing.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Since you refuse to share the video, please entertain us with the pictures of the “spirit changing its mood.” [/quote]
[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
RhunDraco wrote:
dollarbill44 wrote:
Is there not a possibility that there is another way of testing that was not considered due to an incomplete understanding of the possibilities of the universe?
What might this other way of testing be and how do we verify its results?
My point was that humans might not have a complete enough understanding yet to know what other testing methods may exist. That is where open-mindedness comes into play.
I believe you said something along the lines of open-mindedness being stupid when it means believing in something that goes against the laws of physics (my apologies if this wasn’t you or wasn’t exactly what you said).
One of my points was that we may not have a great enough understanding to entirely dismiss the idea that our laws are incomplete.
Maybe we’re right and there are no other means of testing and our laws are truly the laws of the universe. I just don’t think we’ve got it all covered as much as we think we have.
DB[/quote]
I agree with you that we don’t know everything. Someone who claims to, most certainly doesn’t. That’s what I like about human ingenuity and curiosity, combined with the scientific method. We figure stuff out and put that knowledge to the test.
I like to think that eventually, we’ll have ways of testing just about anything and humanity will stand back and slap its collective forehead and exclaim “duh! How come we didn’t see that before?”
Yeah, maybe I need to clarify that statement I made. I will try to get back to that later, as I’m goofing off at work way too much today. 
You are right, humans did codify the laws of physics, but it wasnt like we did it out of thin air. We did it after an exhaustive supply of testing methods was used. Sure, its feasible that one day we could think of something to try, or an alien civilization much smarter than us will reveal great truths to us… But “ghosts” do not fall into this realm, I assure you.
In 1700 I’m sure people thought that we would make it into space one day. It wasnt available to them of course, but there is nothing inherently impossible about it. This is vastly different than breaking an established physical law.
The hallmark of a great scientist is not “going against the conventional wisdom” (actually, for much of the last 2000 years “science” was whatever the church said was the case), but rather its following the evidence wherever it leads you. If this means that the laws of physics are breakable, so be it. It just hasnt happened yet, and given the sheer volume of testing on the topic, its reasonable to assume it wont happen.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
You are right, humans did codify the laws of physics, but it wasnt like we did it out of thin air. We did it after an exhaustive supply of testing methods was used. Sure, its feasible that one day we could think of something to try, or an alien civilization much smarter than us will reveal great truths to us… But “ghosts” do not fall into this realm, I assure you.[/quote]
I don’t believe I said the laws were pulled out of thin air. How can you assure me of this when you say that ghosts violate the laws of physics but you just said it’s feasible that these laws could change if we get different information in the future?
My point was that they couldn’t prove that it was possible, not that no one could imagine it.
I never said that the “hallmark” of a great scientist is “going against the conventional wisdom”. What I said was many of the greatest scientific minds did go against conventional wisdom at the time. Great strides in history were not made by the people who followed along with everyone else and gave up on an idea because their peers said it wasn’t possible.
The volume of testing on what topic? Do we even have all of the topics established yet? I don’t think we do, therefore, I think it is more reasonable to assume that new laws will be written and that some of those might even alter the existing laws.
DB
Tribunaldude, you must be making a fair amount of money off sume gullibles if you keep pushing those sort of stories…
[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
I can’t post the video because its classified. I will post the pictures as soon as I can. I’l also put up some vids my buds captured of poltergeists (the main type of presences found in the midwest).
I suppose you do not believe in Astral projection either? You skeptics are amusing.
Lonnie123 wrote:
Since you refuse to share the video, please entertain us with the pictures of the “spirit changing its mood.”
[/quote]
Who classified the video and for what purpose?
[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
I can’t post the video because its classified. I will post the pictures as soon as I can. I’l also put up some vids my buds captured of poltergeists (the main type of presences found in the midwest).
I suppose you do not believe in Astral projection either? You skeptics are amusing.
Lonnie123 wrote:
Since you refuse to share the video, please entertain us with the pictures of the “spirit changing its mood.”
[/quote]
So, what, spirits are classified as secret by some agency? Who declared the footage classified? I’m gonna go out on a limb here and call BS.
As for astral projection, provide some links to reputable references that can confirm it’s anything besides dream, hallucination, or fabrication. Since you are convinced it’s real, then you must be capable of doing it. Let’s set up an experiment!
What’s really amusing is how someone can suggest they have proof of supernatural occurrences and all we get in return are grainy photographs and reports of “classified” footage.
As a skeptic, I think you’re just pulling our collective chain, however, if your footage turns out to be factual, and can be proven so, then I’ll gladly redefine my concept of reality.
[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
I can’t post the video because its classified.
[/quote]
Oh, of course. Fair enough, I’ll take your word for it.
DB, I think we are getting a bit off topic so I’ll just bullett point a few things:
-
Nothing in science is 100%, but there are things that are 99.99%. Physics is in that realm more so than other other field. It is conceivable that we are totally wrong and some alien civilization could provide us with a wealth of information that overturns everything we currently know, but its such a long shot that I think its as close to being impossible as anything else.
-
I dont recall saying ghosts violate the laws of physics, if I implied this I was mistaken or mispoke. What I meant to say was physics has behind it a wealth of evidence and can make predictions with incredible accuracy, whereas ghosts have only Anecdotal human observation, which is notoriously fallible.
-Science delivers the goods. Computers, electricity, men on the moon, cell phones, medicine, and newly the Large Hadron Collider. I’m still waiting to be shown good evidence for a ghost other than grainy youtube videos, cold spots, and “Well, how do you explain this…” type of stories.
And further more, if they have the ability to open doors and make lights go out that would just be even easier to test. Yet it never seems to work out.
I’ll equate it to Big Foot. For some reason this legend has lived on, but no actual (read: non hoax) evidence for it has been found. Where is the body? Hundreds/thousands of search expeditions have gone in search of this thing, surely we would have found it by now, no?
In a case like this, it is reasonable to assume that Big Foot does not exist, although there is still a slight, minute possibility that he does.
Ghosts, in my opinion, fall into this category as well. Its POSSIBLE they exist, but the evidence is so overwhelming that they dont, a prudent critical thinking person must assume they do not until hard evidence comes in that they do. Anecdotes do not qualify as scientific evidence.
[quote]Molotov_Coktease wrote:
michael2507 wrote:
Long story short: To me, ghosts are most likely a product of the human mind based on wishful thinking (death is not “the end” after all), a temporal lack of scientific explanations for certain phenomena and maybe the appeal of the supernatural.
See, I’m not inclined to be reassured by the existence of ghosts…in fact, quite the opposite. If anything they represent the idea to me that death brings no peace. That there is no end, but rather than taking solace in that… I fear going on more…going on and being trapped in some place in time. Like a nightmare lived over and over.
[/quote]
I find this interesting in that I feel much the same way. First of all, I find the idea of ghosts to be somewhat of a logical jump. Why should our energy immediately dissipate at death?
As for the idea of consciousness after death, I find it abhorrent. In fact, even the concept of heaven is somehow horrifying. I’m with Molotov Cocktease…I hope to one day cease. Any other concept is as mind numbing as contemplating eternity.
[quote]RhunDraco wrote:
As for astral projection, provide some links to reputable references that can confirm it’s anything besides dream, hallucination, or fabrication. Since you are convinced it’s real, then you must be capable of doing it. Let’s set up an experiment!
What’s really amusing is how someone can suggest they have proof of supernatural occurrences and all we get in return are grainy photographs and reports of “classified” footage.
As a skeptic, I think you’re just pulling our collective chain, however, if your footage turns out to be factual, and can be proven so, then I’ll gladly redefine my concept of reality.[/quote]
I’m almost getting the feeling he IS a versed skeptic and knows exactly what to say/show to get us going.
- Grainy photo: Check
- “Proof” I cant show you(the video): Check
- Another Woo-woo idea unsupported by evidence (astral projection): Check
Look, its very simple. I will write a word on a piece of paper tonight. You astral project over to my place and tell me what the word is. You get it right, I’ll be much more inclined to believe in astral projection. You get it wrong, you were mistaken. Fair enough?
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Look, its very simple. I will write a word on a piece of paper tonight. You astral project over to my place and tell me what the word is. You get it right, I’ll be much more inclined to believe in astral projection. You get it wrong, you were mistaken. Fair enough?[/quote]
Is it, antidisestablishmentarianism?
You see, I’m psychic - which means I already know what you were going to right on that piece of paper.
That information is classified as well. This project is actually dead, and the investigation results have been sealed away at the highest level.
And give me some time to present the mood-changing spirit baby face, ok! And you can find legit poltergeist vids around, for fuck’s sake. I’ll put up my top 10 list soon.
You guys don;t have to believe in the video, I just mentioned it in passing. The photographs are evidence enough. To the trained eye, the facial features are apparent in the first one, as they will be in the scond one.
and astral projection doesn’t take place in this realm, you project yourself into the astral plane. This takes years of practice, and only very young children (under the age of 2 usually) can project themselves without training/guidance.
I know this because you can only see the imaes of children and some animals in the AP each time you project. In fact, I used to teach a course on astral projection at the college level before it was cancelled by government interference (I assume).
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
tribunaldude wrote:
I can’t post the video because its classified. I will post the pictures as soon as I can. I’l also put up some vids my buds captured of poltergeists (the main type of presences found in the midwest).
I suppose you do not believe in Astral projection either? You skeptics are amusing.
Lonnie123 wrote:
Since you refuse to share the video, please entertain us with the pictures of the “spirit changing its mood.”
Who classified the video and for what purpose?[/quote]