You must be nuts if you think mr.science man can accurately date something. We have no idea how old the earth is.
Define accuracy. Science has done best job so far in these things.
And it is hard to have super accurate models to 4+bilj. years old events. We know somewhat accurately when the earth formed.
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Iām not interested in debating the existence of a god (at least not right now), but I will say scientists are pretty damn good at dating things. Radiometric dating is very powerful. It involves using unstable isotopes, whose half lives are well known, and comparing their ratio to stable isotopes. (Iām a PhD chemist, so Iām not trolling or making this up).
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Iām actually still sort of a Catholic despite having distanced myself from organized religion, but I donāt enter discussions trying to rationalize faith because itās beyond rationalization. I cannot justify this belief other than the fact that not believing will make my life worse than believing. Itās a personal thing, so I donāt preach, nor try to convert others either.
I donāt buy the morality argument. My ethical and moral code is derived from the evolution of Traditional Chinese ethics spanning from Confucianism to non-secular Buddhism to social rules derived from Anti-Qing Government revolutionaries. Any similarities with Christianity is incidental, and more of a reflection of a human need for self-organization, social order, values and hope during times of terrible suffering than a divine entity itself.
What Catholicism really did was instill horrible guilt in me that I wish I could let go off. However, I am self-aware enough to conclude that rejecting a god because of this isnāt a refutation of the existence of a god.
This isnāt a good argument at all because you are asserting the need for a god, which has nothing to do with the existence of a god. We can apply this to secular ideologies, cults, fringe hate groups, and populism in politics which normally ends up in totalitarianism.
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Monty Python?
I do believe in God and I can see the influence he has in my life and in the world around us as @The_Myth alluded to up thread. It took me a while to reconcile my scientific nature with the spiritual realm (I am engineer by trade and therefore that kind of logical reasoning leaks into most of my thinking) but I have come to realize not everything can be explained by science. Science has done a great job describing how a large number of things behave, but most of the theories about the origins of the universe are still just that - theories. At this point, they no more or less valid than any intelligent design theory/belief/faith.
I donāt buy into the young earth idea perpetuated by some sects of Christianity. The earth may well be a few billion years old. There is a verse in the Bible that mentions that to God āA day is like a thousand yearsā - well, a thousand years could very well be a million or billion years since when that verse was written, humans did not have a good understanding of large numbers.
Here is my bottom line: If I am wrong in my faith and it turns out there is no God, what have I lost? Maybe a few hours of my life in church, but if those from my church provide me with friendship and a kind of second family, was the time really wasted? If i am right (and faith makes me believe I am) I gain eternal life in a paradise. This situation is win-win in my book.
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I can accept the concept of a superior creator, engineer etc. But I have trouble thinking heās still there. I really have trouble believing in heaven and hell. I mean, according to the Bible etc a non-baptised infant, letās say he died at birth, is going to purgatory (or hell I canāt remember) so what? They stay there forever, as a useless being who canāt speak, form complex thoughts, forever in a baby shape? Nice work bro God, thatās fair! What about feral children, that despite many tries, never developped langage or social habits? Are we then really chosen, different than animals? Protected and watched and nurtured by God?
āGod works in mysterious waysā right, in that case if there is a larger purpose for all the injustices, diseases, wars, innocent killed or crippled, then heās very cruel/evil/does not care, and āthe end justifies the meansā.
Believe it or not this statement is not actually in the Bible. It has been perpetuated by some denominations of Christianity based on our āsin natureā. Most modern interpretations now see this as there is an āage of accountabilityā where once humans are old enough to understand their actions and the potential consequences thatās where āliving in sinā can lead to hell. Itās a gray area and one of those aspects of faith that no one has good explanation for.
This link does a decent job of explaining the Christian view on suffering. (There are similar treatsies on suffering written by Jewish scholars - which is the same God).
I think the fact that God permits suffering when he could stop it is something that humans may not ever understand.
Itās an interesting coincidence that you posted this on (or on the eve of) Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the year in Judaism, and observed continuously for some 3300 years or so. We fast for 25 hours, pray and repent of sins of all kinds, but most especially for things weāve done against our friends and families.
Did you know the timing? Or was this a strange accident?
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Not arguing with you, I know that youāre right that people do make this change and attribute it to God. I would point out, though, that many more have this conversion experience with God, do better, and then eventually fall back into old habits, e.g. drug addicts who feel themselves saved but then when they encounter the problem substance on a bad day fall back into use and the behaviors that support use, such as theft.
I will also point out that people have this experience in response to other influences, such as the classic āgood womanā who saves the disreputable blackguard; kids whoāve grown up without morals, then are pulled into loving families somehow (through boyfriends/girlfriends or social services) and step up to make them proud. I know that when I worked with kids, even my good opinion was enough sometimes to prompt better behavior.
Sometimes someone is given another chance unexpectedly, and rises as a result. I work with a couple of former substance abusers (one older guy alcoholic, one young woman with a heroin history, both years into recovery). Iād call both agnostic, and say that their higher powers probably boil down to their own futures. Both are scrupulously honest and upright now. Kind of rigidly so, actually. I have to talk them each down from moral peaks occasionally.
Technically they would be. Along with millions of other things that donāt have to do with anything you said. I acknowledge our (humans) weaknesses and flaws but choose to focus on things outside of that ā¦ YOU on the other hand, seem to focus on and amplify the negative and miserable things that humans do, and it comes across in your posts. Iām sorry you choose to be a miserable personā¦also, donāt put words in my mouth toolbag
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Pascalās book too.
I am missing the context here (though I feel I shouldnāt be).
What you are describing is known as āPascalās Wagerā
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You do come off as happy.
Thanks, I didnāt think my way of thinking was brand new regarding this. Hadnāt heard of that argument until now. The approach works for me though.
I always figured an omnipotent being would see through it compared to actual faith. Sorta like the difference between being loyal to a spouse out of love vs out of fear of being caught.
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This would the case if there was one religion, but how do you know youāre putting your faith in the correct religion? I would guess it has something to do with where you were born and what your parents believed, which is usually the case.
Iām very curious what you mean by no idea. My understanding is we have a good general idea for the age of the earth as well as the universe.
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I guess i donāt see the philosphy and faith as mutually exclusive. I have a fairly strong faith and seek to live out the morals and tenets set forth in the Bible.
Itās more of what I use to answer non-religious/of other faith people when they ask āwhat if youāre wrong?ā.To me, if I am wrong (again, I donāt believe this), at the end of my life I wonāt know it.
This is the inherent nature of faith. Some group is going to be right or we, as humans, are all collectively wrong.