DNC 2012

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
221

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
And the “you didn’t build that” thing is another ridiculous non-issue. Bad word choice, and in terms of contemporary politics, abysmal word choice. But he was making a point that every single person on this board and in this country knows to be true. It is such a fucking self-evident platitude that it’s almost stupid that it was even spoken out loud in the first place, but apparently that point needs to be made in these times of screaming hysteria.[/quote]

I agree it shouldn’t be an issue, but disagree that it’s not an issue. The president made it an issue. Yes we all use the road, school, etc…, but we also all paid for the roads, schools, etc…

The “you didn’t build that” was a direct attempt to demonize someone like Romney, while galvanizing the poor/working class that voted for him last to get “free stuff.”

That’s how I took the comment anyway. [/quote]

Every successful businessman should be proud of their success, and it should never be diminished by anyone out of envy or spite. But every person who has succeeded in a cooperative society should acknowledge and understand that the road to prosperity in contemporary America, especially in a globalized economy, exists in large part because of things the government has done over the past century.[/quote]

You mean the things that taxpayers have paid for like roads, bridges, highways and other such infrastructure.

And who pays the most taxes?

Uh huh…

222

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
And when he said that “the wealthy are not paying their fair share” (even though the top 1% pay 37% of all income tax)[/quote]

And in many cases a smaller percentage of their total annual earnings than people who can barely pay the college tuition of their children.

Taxes should be flat or progressive, not regressive. Warren Buffet shouldn’t pay 17% when his secretary pays 30%.

If you disagree, then forget arguing about it because there’s no point.

223

[quote]smh23 wrote:
And the “you didn’t build that” thing is another ridiculous non-issue. Bad word choice, and in terms of contemporary politics, abysmal word choice. But he was making a point that every single person on this board and in this country knows to be true. It is such a fucking self-evident platitude that it’s almost stupid that it was even spoken out loud in the first place, but apparently that point needs to be made in these times of screaming hysteria.[/quote]

No offense, but at this point, with this many “miss-speakings” you are the one with screaming hysteria if any of us have it.

Obama said it, how he said it to fuel class warfare, it worked, and worked perfectly. It was amazing really.

But yeah, I’m the crazy one. Right.

Start a business, struggle, and when you go under and put your entire family in poverty trying to feed your 80 employees families for an extra 2 months, then come back to this comment of yours.

224

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
And the “you didn’t build that” thing is another ridiculous non-issue. Bad word choice, and in terms of contemporary politics, abysmal word choice. But he was making a point that every single person on this board and in this country knows to be true. It is such a fucking self-evident platitude that it’s almost stupid that it was even spoken out loud in the first place, but apparently that point needs to be made in these times of screaming hysteria.[/quote]

No offense, but at this point, with this many “miss-speakings” you are the one with screaming hysteria if any of us have it.

Obama said it, how he said it to fuel class warfare, it worked, and worked perfectly. It was amazing really.

But yeah, I’m the crazy one. Right.

Start a business, struggle, and when you go under and put your entire family in poverty trying to feed your 80 employees families for an extra 2 months, then come back to this comment of yours.[/quote]

This has strayed from the original discussion.

The comment in question a was banal observation of the fact that while we don’t all belong to the rotary club or the environmentalist movement or the NRA or the Methodist Church, we do all belong to the government. Belong as in participate it. That’s it.

Like I said, my nephew belongs to the science club. Do you think that when I type that I’m implying that he is a slave to some fucking high school physicist?

225

[quote]smh23 wrote:

Taxes should be flat or progressive, not regressive.[/quote]

Please, I’m all ears, explain how the IRC is regressive.

He lives on Cap Gains. In a bad year, he might make zero dollars. She lives on salary. And if she is paying 30% effective rate, she is making like 350k+. And in a down year, she still gets paid.

I won’t even get into the concept of phantom income.

It isn’t about agree or disagree. Your talking points have prevented you from learning factual information.

226

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
And the “you didn’t build that” thing is another ridiculous non-issue. Bad word choice, and in terms of contemporary politics, abysmal word choice. But he was making a point that every single person on this board and in this country knows to be true. It is such a fucking self-evident platitude that it’s almost stupid that it was even spoken out loud in the first place, but apparently that point needs to be made in these times of screaming hysteria.[/quote]

No offense, but at this point, with this many “miss-speakings” you are the one with screaming hysteria if any of us have it.

Obama said it, how he said it to fuel class warfare, it worked, and worked perfectly. It was amazing really.

But yeah, I’m the crazy one. Right.

Start a business, struggle, and when you go under and put your entire family in poverty trying to feed your 80 employees families for an extra 2 months, then come back to this comment of yours.[/quote]

This has strayed from the original discussion.

The comment in question a was banal observation of the fact that while we don’t all belong to the rotary club or the environmentalist movement or the NRA or the Methodist Church, we do all belong to the government. Belong as in participate it. That’s it.

Like I said, my nephew belongs to the science club. Do you think that when I type that I’m implying that he is a slave to some fucking high school physicist?[/quote]

In your mind the goverment is equal to a science club?

227

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
And the “you didn’t build that” thing is another ridiculous non-issue. Bad word choice, and in terms of contemporary politics, abysmal word choice. But he was making a point that every single person on this board and in this country knows to be true. It is such a fucking self-evident platitude that it’s almost stupid that it was even spoken out loud in the first place, but apparently that point needs to be made in these times of screaming hysteria.[/quote]

No offense, but at this point, with this many “miss-speakings” you are the one with screaming hysteria if any of us have it.

Obama said it, how he said it to fuel class warfare, it worked, and worked perfectly. It was amazing really.

But yeah, I’m the crazy one. Right.

Start a business, struggle, and when you go under and put your entire family in poverty trying to feed your 80 employees families for an extra 2 months, then come back to this comment of yours.[/quote]

This has strayed from the original discussion.

?[/quote]

Actually, I would like to know what you would have said to my client, a 62 year old man, tears running down his face onto the paperwork, that looked up at you and said, “I lost everything I ever had for this place. I gave everything, my whole life.”

Would you have said, “Well don’t worry, main street is paved, the government has done such wonders for us. And everyone else too. Man are you lucky they kicked in $42 to help pay Sally School Teacher’s salary.”

228

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

In your mind the goverment is equal to a science club?

[/quote]

In my mind, the phrase “I belong to the government” has an intended meaning that is perfectly analogous to that of the phrase “I belong to science club” or “I belong to the NRA.”

It’s like Mitt Romney saying that corporation are people. He makes a valid and obvious point and everyone pretends to be indignant because the words themselves don’t sound great strung together like that.

229

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

In your mind the goverment is equal to a science club?

[/quote]

In my mind, the phrase “I belong to the government” has an intended meaning that is perfectly analogous to that of the phrase “I belong to science club” or “I belong to the NRA.”

It’s like Mitt Romney saying that corporation are people. He makes a valid and obvious point and everyone pretends to be indignant because the words themselves don’t sound great strung together like that.[/quote]

Fine.

But, is it really out of the question, given the other things the man has said and how he said them, that people heard it slightly different, and are upset about it?

Because, in my mind it was intended to say “we are property of the government”.

230

[quote]smh23 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
smh23 wrote:
And when he said that “the wealthy are not paying their fair share” (even though the top 1% pay 37% of all income tax)

And in many cases a smaller percentage of their total annual earnings than people who can barely pay the college tuition of their children.[/quote]

You do know the difference between capital gains tax and regular income tax right? If someone takes a risk in the markets and ends up winning they pay 15% on that gain. Whereas a salaried worker will pay straight income tax on their pay.

In essence the person who is taxed at 15% for their capital gains tax has been taxed twice on that money. Once at a regular rate when first earned and then again when it’s invested.

I agree he should be paying NOTHING as the money that he used to invest was already earned and paid at the regular income tax rate. You are comparing apples to oranges. That is good political fodder for the masses who buy into such tripe. And the democrats always score big with this class warfare nonsense. But in a debate where people actually understand how the tax system works it is utter nonsense.

Oh I wouldn’t say that there is no point. One can be extremely smart in certain areas yet not fully grasp or even have a preliminary understanding of how our system actually works. When that happens they cling to their leaders political talking points. And I dare say you are doing that right now.

231

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
And the “you didn’t build that” thing is another ridiculous non-issue. Bad word choice, and in terms of contemporary politics, abysmal word choice. But he was making a point that every single person on this board and in this country knows to be true. It is such a fucking self-evident platitude that it’s almost stupid that it was even spoken out loud in the first place, but apparently that point needs to be made in these times of screaming hysteria.[/quote]

I agree it shouldn’t be an issue, but disagree that it’s not an issue. The president made it an issue. Yes we all use the road, school, etc…, but we also all paid for the roads, schools, etc…

The “you didn’t build that” was a direct attempt to demonize someone like Romney, while galvanizing the poor/working class that voted for him last to get “free stuff.”

That’s how I took the comment anyway. [/quote]

Every successful businessman should be proud of their success, and it should never be diminished by anyone out of envy or spite. But every person who has succeeded in a cooperative society should acknowledge and understand that the road to prosperity in contemporary America, especially in a globalized economy, exists in large part because of things the government has done over the past century.[/quote]

The difference I see is that the governement didn’t do it, they just facilitated it. We the people did the work and we the people paid for it, right? (talking about roads and such)

I think the Presidents comments very much diminished the hard work of business creators.

232

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

In your mind the goverment is equal to a science club?

[/quote]

In my mind, the phrase “I belong to the government” has an intended meaning that is perfectly analogous to that of the phrase “I belong to science club” or “I belong to the NRA.”

It’s like Mitt Romney saying that corporation are people. He makes a valid and obvious point and everyone pretends to be indignant because the words themselves don’t sound great strung together like that.[/quote]

Fine.

But, is it really out of the question, given the other things the man has said and how he said them, that people heard it slightly different, and are upset about it?

Because, in my mind it was intended to say “we are property of the government”.[/quote]

I do understand. I just honestly don’t think that the immediate context warrants that kind of interpretation. But who knows for sure?

I will tell you that if he truly meant what you’re implying he meant, I’d be as disgusted as you are.

233

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
And the “you didn’t build that” thing is another ridiculous non-issue. Bad word choice, and in terms of contemporary politics, abysmal word choice. But he was making a point that every single person on this board and in this country knows to be true. It is such a fucking self-evident platitude that it’s almost stupid that it was even spoken out loud in the first place, but apparently that point needs to be made in these times of screaming hysteria.[/quote]

I agree it shouldn’t be an issue, but disagree that it’s not an issue. The president made it an issue. Yes we all use the road, school, etc…, but we also all paid for the roads, schools, etc…

The “you didn’t build that” was a direct attempt to demonize someone like Romney, while galvanizing the poor/working class that voted for him last to get “free stuff.”

That’s how I took the comment anyway. [/quote]

Every successful businessman should be proud of their success, and it should never be diminished by anyone out of envy or spite. But every person who has succeeded in a cooperative society should acknowledge and understand that the road to prosperity in contemporary America, especially in a globalized economy, exists in large part because of things the government has done over the past century.[/quote]

The difference I see is that the governement didn’t do it, they just facilitated it. We the people did the work and we the people paid for it, right? (talking about roads and such)

I think the Presidents comments very much diminished the hard work of business creators. [/quote]

When Obama goes off the teleprompter his actual beliefs begin to surface. We saw it with his “you didn’t build that comment” and again with the Joe the Plumber “I want to spread the wealth around” comment.

But when you look at his past there is nothing there to lead you to the belief that he understands business or how the economy works. He was a community organizer, a law professor and a two year senator with the most liberal voting record in the Senate. So, I have no problem believing that he meant what he said in those cases.

I will not call him a full blown socialist but if it were not for the republican congress I assure you he would steer even further left than he has. Case in point is the take over of 1/6th of the economy with Obamacare. THAT is what he’s capable of doing if given free rein.

234

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

In your mind the goverment is equal to a science club?

[/quote]

In my mind, the phrase “I belong to the government” has an intended meaning that is perfectly analogous to that of the phrase “I belong to science club” or “I belong to the NRA.”

It’s like Mitt Romney saying that corporation are people. He makes a valid and obvious point and everyone pretends to be indignant because the words themselves don’t sound great strung together like that.[/quote]

Fine.

But, is it really out of the question, given the other things the man has said and how he said them, that people heard it slightly different, and are upset about it?

Because, in my mind it was intended to say “we are property of the government”.[/quote]

I do understand. I just honestly don’t think that the immediate context warrants that kind of interpretation. But who knows for sure?

I will tell you that if he truly meant what you’re implying he meant, I’d be as disgusted as you are.[/quote]

Oh stop it, given his background and personal history of course he meant it!

235

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

In your mind the goverment is equal to a science club?

[/quote]

In my mind, the phrase “I belong to the government” has an intended meaning that is perfectly analogous to that of the phrase “I belong to science club” or “I belong to the NRA.”

It’s like Mitt Romney saying that corporation are people. He makes a valid and obvious point and everyone pretends to be indignant because the words themselves don’t sound great strung together like that.[/quote]

Fine.

But, is it really out of the question, given the other things the man has said and how he said them, that people heard it slightly different, and are upset about it?

Because, in my mind it was intended to say “we are property of the government”.[/quote]

I do understand. I just honestly don’t think that the immediate context warrants that kind of interpretation. But who knows for sure?

I will tell you that if he truly meant what you’re implying he meant, I’d be as disgusted as you are.[/quote]

For context, I’m a CPA in a small firm. I work 70% of my time for Private Equity firms, that are smaller players in the game, and the other 30% are small business. Before my client I mention went under, it was 50-50, and I was his right hand man, I talked to him 3-4 times a day, including Easter Sunday. I see how much it takes to run a business, and no business owner is going to reject the notion we live in a society where when everyone grows we all grow better. But the syntax, word choice, whatever, was way out of line, and would be utter only by someone who is a) clueless or b) doing it on purpose.

I also live in MA. So government instantly freaks me out, we have a fuck ton of it.

236

He didn’t misspeak. He was giving the lower-middle income/lower income sufficient justification to vote for a party prepared to go after the ‘wealthy.’ It was meant to allow those folks to feel ok about themselves as they targeted a smaller subset of fellow Americans. It was class warfare.

237

[quote]Sloth wrote:
He didn’t misspeak. He was giving the lower-middle income/lower income sufficient justification to vote for a party prepared to go after the ‘wealthy.’ It was meant to allow those folks to feel ok about themselves as they targeted a smaller subset of fellow Americans. It was class warfare.[/quote]

Bingo.

It was wonderfully done too. Worked perfect.

He is good, I’ll give him that.

238

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
The republicans are as guilty and a lot more culpable than the Dems[/quote]

Yes pitt, the republicans are the ones keeping race, race-baiting and racism alive and well in America.

fucking pathetic

239

[quote]Sloth wrote:
He didn’t misspeak. He was giving the lower-middle income/lower income sufficient justification to vote for a party prepared to go after the ‘wealthy.’ It was meant to allow those folks to feel ok about themselves as they targeted a smaller subset of fellow Americans. It was class warfare.[/quote]

This is in reference to the “build that” comments and not the “belong to the government” comment, yes?

240

[quote]Sloth wrote:

He didn’t misspeak. He was giving the lower-middle income/lower income sufficient justification to vote for a party prepared to go after the ‘wealthy.’ It was meant to allow those folks to feel ok about themselves as they targeted a smaller subset of fellow Americans. It was class warfare.[/quote]

Exactly. Re: “you didn’t build that”, it tracked (nearly verbatim) the comments made by Elizabeth Warren made during her campaign, and she didn’t misspeak. It is a theme, not a misstatement.