Disturbing Picture

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]CharlesStaley wrote:
As far as the “choice vs genetics” issue goes, just apply some common sense: If gays are gay by choice, straights would ALSO be straight by choice, but are they?

Any straight person would tell you that they’re straight by birth (not by choice), and therefore, I can only assume that gays would tell you that they’re that way by birth as well.

But maybe we can take a poll here: regardless of your sexual orientation, is anyone here straight or gay by CHOICE? Anyone? In other words, did you actually decide your orientation? Or are you just they way you are from birth?

It’d be interesting to see.
[/quote]

I think this “by choice” term needs some serious clarification.

One can consciously choose (as an adult) to participate in an act. That has to be considered choice. I don’t think that this happens in the case of homosexuals. Although no one knows for sure, I seriously doubt it.

However what if someone is in some way “changed” as a child (call it nurture) to prefer to have sex with someone of the same gender. There have been many studies regarding the homosexual man who grew up with a domineering mother and a distant father.

"(4) Although he has “defensively detached” from his father, the young boy still carries silently within him a terrible longing for the warmth, love, and encircling arms of the father he never did nor could have. Early on, he develops intense, nonsexual attachments to older boys he admires - but at a distance, repeating with them the same experience of longing and unavailability.

When puberty sets in, sexual urges - which can attach themselves to any object, especially in males - rise to the surface and combine with his already intense need for masculine intimacy and warmth. He begins to develop homosexual crushes. Later he recalls, “My first sexual longings were directed not at girls but at boys. I was never interested in girls.”

http://www.narth.com/docs/pieces.html

I am not claiming (this or)any of the studies to be true, as we have no way of knowing at this point. However, if this were the case is this a choice? I don’t think so. This also, by the way, means that the Gay Lobby should stop presenting it’s “born that way” argument as fact.

102

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Elkhntr1 wrote:
Just a quick observation from Zeb’s posts on this thread and the other gay thread. He’s really got a hard on for homosexuals… no pun intended.

It’s a shame if you might actually believe that statement!

Just seeing if the Zebster would bite… you did. [/quote]

See if I would bite?

Um…yea whenever my views are mischaracterized I “bite.”

I think that holds true for you as well.

103

[quote]buffalokilla wrote:
CharlesStaley wrote:
As far as the “choice vs genetics” issue goes, just apply some common sense: If gays are gay by choice, straights would ALSO be straight by choice, but are they?

Any straight person would tell you that they’re straight by birth (not by choice), and therefore, I can only assume that gays would tell you that they’re that way by birth as well.

But maybe we can take a poll here: regardless of your sexual orientation, is anyone here straight or gay by CHOICE? Anyone? In other words, did you actually decide your orientation? Or are you just they way you are from birth?

It’d be interesting to see.

I’d say by birth AND choice. I likes the women - I happen to think that female breasts and butts are attractive. I don’t think that men are attractive, though like most here I can appreciate a well-built male physique without any sexual association. I’ve liked women from the beginning, but now that I am past the hormonal rampage of puberty, I continue to choose women over men because I find women much more attractive for a great many reasons.

-Dan[/quote]

Dan it seems that you’ve never had to choose, it’s just the way that you are…

I cannot see how a cognizant choice can be made concerning which side of the plate you swing from. Unless, of course one is making that decision based on trying to hide something, gain some sort of advantage, or find themselves in a desparate enough situation.

But just under the surface one knows if they’re gay or hetro.

104

Oh, hey, I’ll be expecting royalties for the use of the term “mischaracterized”…

105

It cannot be wholly genetic. There are quite a few women in porn, and yes men, who are not attracted to the same sex. Yet because of monitary pursuasion they choose to engage in acts that would be considered “homosexual.” What about people in jail just looking to get off and resorting to the same gender for this? Is that not a choice? Looks to me like environment plays a role there. There is a whole spectrum of how a child is raised that could influence the direction of the child’s preferance.

Some are probably genetic but some are DEFINITLY choice. To say otherwise is a great slap in the face in the most amazing piece of “hardware” in the world, our brain. Our brain is a wonderful beast and can without a doubt influence choices that are not genetically based.

106

[quote]vroom wrote:
Someday I hope I wake up and hear on the news that someone stuffed a .45 in this ugly cocksucker’s mouth and capped one off. Even better, I’d like to be picked for jury duty for that trial, assuming there were even charges filed.

Sure, the guy is a prick, but isn’t the whole point of your country about freedom of speech and rule of law?

[/quote]

I do NOT know how freedom of speech works in the US. Can anybody help me with the following questions ?

1/ Does freedom of speech allow you to insult someone in public ?

2/ Are insults considered harmful ?

I know that in other countries you can sue someone when he insults you in public.

107

PGA,

Given your scenario, it could be genetic and choice…

Genetics would cover

  • like men only
  • like women only
  • like anything

Then, for those that have the ability to like whatever is available, they can make a choice.

Having this element of choice in no way would invalidate the concept of genetics being a determinent all on it’s own.

108

Recent research seems to show that homosexuality is not always a choice.

Read this
X Chromosome Methylation Pattern in Mothers Causing Some Male Homosexuality :
http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002449.html

and this
Biological Basis For Sheep Homosexuality Discovered :
http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/001979.html

109

[quote]PGA200X wrote:
It cannot be wholly genetic. There are quite a few women in porn, and yes men, who are not attracted to the same sex. Yet because of monitary pursuasion they choose to engage in acts that would be considered “homosexual.” What about people in jail just looking to get off and resorting to the same gender for this? Is that not a choice? Looks to me like environment plays a role there. There is a whole spectrum of how a child is raised that could influence the direction of the child’s preferance.

Some are probably genetic but some are DEFINITLY choice. To say otherwise is a great slap in the face in the most amazing piece of “hardware” in the world, our brain. Our brain is a wonderful beast and can without a doubt influence choices that are not genetically based.[/quote]

With women its different your body doesnt have to coperate for you to have sex.

A man has to achieve an erection to have sex, and I dont think I would have that happen in the presence of a man. It wouldnt happen in the presence of a really obese woman either, whether or not I want it to or not.

I have never been to prison but I cant imagine any length of time making without a women making me able to be turned on by another male.

So here is a direct question, How many people feel they could choose to have sex with a man or women any time they wanted?

110

I think your point is plausible Zeb, just as I think you can be born that way.

Remember the movie American Beauty with Kevin Spacey? Remember the Marine Corp Colonel?

Do you think that some that get all hell bent for leather fired up over this could be suppressing their own latent homosexual impulses that they were born with?

Can you say “well sure he won’t be in heaven with me and will be cast in a lake fire, but while he’s here on earth sharing this existence with me, he and his partner can share health benefits and if they are responsible adults adopt a baby wasting away in an orphanage,”. Are is it your christianly duty to make sure he or she suffers in this life as well as the next?

111

[quote]PGA200X wrote:
It cannot be wholly genetic. There are quite a few women in porn, and yes men, who are not attracted to the same sex. Yet because of monitary pursuasion they choose to engage in acts that would be considered “homosexual.” What about people in jail just looking to get off and resorting to the same gender for this? Is that not a choice? Looks to me like environment plays a role there. There is a whole spectrum of how a child is raised that could influence the direction of the child’s preferance.

Some are probably genetic but some are DEFINITLY choice. To say otherwise is a great slap in the face in the most amazing piece of “hardware” in the world, our brain. Our brain is a wonderful beast and can without a doubt influence choices that are not genetically based.[/quote]

I see your points, but what about this take. There are sexual deviants and like you said they will look at anything with a pulse to get themselves off, but is that the same as someone who loves another of the same sex which on a whole sex is just one aspect of that love?

112

[quote]vroom wrote:
PGA,

Given your scenario, it could be genetic and choice…

Genetics would cover

  • like men only
  • like women only
  • like anything

Then, for those that have the ability to like whatever is available, they can make a choice.

Having this element of choice in no way would invalidate the concept of genetics being a determinent all on it’s own.[/quote]

Environment plays a huge role. What about the “bitch” jail scenario? They are forced to be someone’s “bitch.” Thats being forced and neither a choice nor a genetic trait.

What about a poor child that was raped by his or her mother or father and ends up “homosexual?” There we have environmental influences affecting someones “decisions.”

Like I said earlier, look at the porn industry to see an overwhelming display of choice not genetical influence.

To say its wholly genetic is wrong and to say its wholly choice is wrong.

113

[quote]k.elkouhen wrote:
vroom wrote:
Someday I hope I wake up and hear on the news that someone stuffed a .45 in this ugly cocksucker’s mouth and capped one off. Even better, I’d like to be picked for jury duty for that trial, assuming there were even charges filed.

Sure, the guy is a prick, but isn’t the whole point of your country about freedom of speech and rule of law?

I do NOT know how freedom of speech works in the US. Can anybody help me with the following questions ?

1/ Does freedom of speech allow you to insult someone in public ?

2/ Are insults considered harmful ?

I know that in other countries you can sue someone when he insults you in public. [/quote]

Looks like this site may answer some of your questions.

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/comm/free_speech/default.html

114

[quote]Jersey5150 wrote:
So here is a direct question, How many people feel they could choose to have sex with a man or women any time they wanted?
[/quote]

I’m sure most men would grab their ankles for the right amount of money.

115

[quote]000 wrote:
Isn’t this sad? These same signs show around here (Colorado Springs) occasionally from a family of 12 from Kansas (Westboro Baptist Church). I’m not exactly sure what they’re trying to accomplish as around here Focus on the Family is the big anti-gay hitter and these people have even alienated them.[/quote]

Where in 'Springs? I’ve got a 3-man water balloon launcher just begging for action if you get my drift…

116

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
PGA200X wrote:
It cannot be wholly genetic. There are quite a few women in porn, and yes men, who are not attracted to the same sex. Yet because of monitary pursuasion they choose to engage in acts that would be considered “homosexual.” What about people in jail just looking to get off and resorting to the same gender for this? Is that not a choice? Looks to me like environment plays a role there. There is a whole spectrum of how a child is raised that could influence the direction of the child’s preferance.

Some are probably genetic but some are DEFINITLY choice. To say otherwise is a great slap in the face in the most amazing piece of “hardware” in the world, our brain. Our brain is a wonderful beast and can without a doubt influence choices that are not genetically based.

I see your points, but what about this take. There are sexual deviants and like you said they will look at anything with a pulse to get themselves off, but is that the same as someone who loves another of the same sex which on a whole sex is just one aspect of that love?
[/quote]

Sex (actual or fantasizing) is what makes “homosexuality” homosexuality. I love my family and close friends which consists of males and females does that make me homosexual? Not in the least bit.

117

[quote]CharlesStaley wrote:
As far as the “choice vs genetics” issue goes, just apply some common sense: If gays are gay by choice, straights would ALSO be straight by choice, but are they?

Any straight person would tell you that they’re straight by birth (not by choice), and therefore, I can only assume that gays would tell you that they’re that way by birth as well.

But maybe we can take a poll here: regardless of your sexual orientation, is anyone here straight or gay by CHOICE? Anyone? In other words, did you actually decide your orientation? Or are you just they way you are from birth?

It’d be interesting to see.
[/quote]

I’ve liked girls ever since I can remember. Even as a boy I didn’t understand why all the other guys thought girls were “icky.” As I hit puberty, I grew up in a somewhat conservative environment where it was “not okay to be gay.” However, I doubt seriously that if the message was that it IS “okay to be gay” that I would have switched preferences. Today, no way in hell could someone “convince” me to go gay. I like women and that’s that.

I think like the Prof mentioned, homosexuality is based on several variables, one of which is biological. Someone brought up prisoners as an example of chosing to be gay. I’m no expert on criminal psychologist, but the prison population isn’t exactly your most mentally stable cross-section of society. Whether an inmate who was heterosexual on the outside decides to engage in homosexual acts while in the slammer will not conclusively answer the nature vs. nurture question.

Keep in mind too that prisoners often rape each other. Rape is not so much about fulfilling a sexual urge (although it does play a part of it) as it is about gaining control over and degrading the victim. Ever see “Deliverance?” The mountain men weren’t after Ned Beatty’s ass; they wanted to humiliate him.

The nature vs. nurture debate, unfortunately, has implications outside of the gay community. For instance, I once had a friend who was really concerned about letting his daughter watch football because “that’s not what girls are supposed to like.” Similarly, girls that do well in sports are labelled “dykes” by some. Somehow I doubt that getting girls involved in strength training and sports will cause them to turn gay.

118

[quote]k.elkouhen wrote:
I do NOT know how freedom of speech works in the US. Can anybody help me with the following questions ?

1/ Does freedom of speech allow you to insult someone in public ?
[/quote]
In general, yes.

[quote]2/ Are insults considered harmful ?
[/quote]
What does “harmful” have to do with anything?

[quote]I know that in other countries you can sue someone when he insults you in public.
[/quote]
Not here. For more information, do a google search on “butt-head astronomer”.

119

Ok, since I’m sure there is at least one other Gay T-Mag reader out there (other than just me) that is also looking at this thread much like we would look at a train wreck…

First of all, I don’t give a shit if I like boys because it is genetic or social, or a little bit of both, or if I choose to or if its an innate part of my existance. I JUST DO.

Secondly, I REALLY don’t care if the Bible says I am a sinner because I like dick or not. It probably does, after all when Christianity was gaining power in Europe and other parts of the world, often the poly-theistic religions were not only gay friendly, but were lead by trans-genders (you know someone part man part woman who could represent all of humanity, rather than a male god).

So its highly likely a religion trying to replace another popular religion would demonize the leaders of the older religion (also while adopting some of their fabulous style, doesn’t anyone else think the pope dresses a bit fruity?)

What I do care about, is having gotten bashed a couple of times, being afraid as hell growing up in a small conservative town, even as I was a star athlete and very lucky to not be all that flamboyant. Having threats to other gay people who have adopted kids that they would be taken away, never being sure if I meet someone, what they would really think of me, if they knew… reading horribly offensive bullshit on forums for manly me about how I can get bigger muscles…

well you get the picture.

120

[quote]vroom wrote:
whenever my views are mischaracterized I “bite.”

Oh, hey, I’ll be expecting royalties for the use of the term “mischaracterized”…[/quote]

If that were the case and you added up all of the times that you mischaracterized others view points you would be quite wealthy indeed!