Thanks for the input everyone. I guess I’m still very confused about one thing. I completely understand that each person is different and will respond differently. I also get that it’s important not to be fixated on numbers sometimes and that it’s important to weigh how one is feeling despite numbers. But @dextermorgan you mentioned your E2 is 77. Despite you feeling great with these “high” numbers, isn’t it still harmful to have high estrogen? Read an article saying how low E2 leads to higher chance of osteoporosis and high E2 (above 34) leads to increased risk of heart attack and stroke.
My PCP told me i may feel great with a T level of 1800, but people on coke feel great too. Feeling great doesn’t make it right. Hahaha
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You are mistaken. I would bet a majority of guys here have E2 above 34. Probably a large majority. Up until a few years ago people were taking breast cancer medication to keep E2 at 22 because they read it somewhere.
I’ve been trying to figure out if Dr Rand knows his stuff. He says E2 should be between 15-25. Which is where i was before i started. Versus dr thomas o’conner who has a different opinion . So, it is so hard to know anything when the experts disagree.
Dr Rand sounds like he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. That’s the same bro science that was spewed everywhere for a while.
What’s more important is a ratio of T to E. I subscribe to the 15-25:1 ratio (15-25 T to 1 E).
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@dextermorgan you said you take 200mg…is that a week or two weeks. I’m at 200mg every two weeks. I’ve also heard from a few others that daily or EOD injections are ideal, esp for ppl with low SHBG, unfortunately due to my personal circumstances I really can’t do more than twice a week. It’s a long story.
So my math shows me at 14:1 ratio. When everyone says to me to wait another four weeks, is it possible my ratio will improve naturally?
@onelove4uk
I do 200mg/week doing daily injections of 28.6mg. A majority of people are totally fine doing once or twice a week injections. (not counting dose changes from 220mg down to 100 and up to 200mg and everything in between) I started with once a week, then twice a week, EOD, daily sub-q, back to EOD, and finally daily IM. I feel best at daily whether sub-q or IM.
Yes. That’s why people say don’t get blood work until you’ve been on a protocol at least 6 weeks.
Unfortunately that doesn’t make me feel better about all this. A lot of people in this forum, including me, are tinkering with things and creating protocols that aren’t studied very well yet. For example, like how it’s supposed to be for IM use only. I don’t think there’s a ton of research on subcutaneous injections probably because it’s not approved. That doesn’t mean subcutaneous is bad necessarily…it’s just not well researched. The majority of people in here that may be above 34 in E2…how long have they been doing this. I’m not sure there’s long term studies to show if the majority of people here will be okay 30 years from now. Like you, I’m in my 30s. Unfortunately the current research is lacking and many urologists seem to understand less than most the people in this forum. So to summarize, I have no idea where to go from here but anything at this point is better than the shit I was feeling for years before I started TRT, and hopefully it all works out long term. Really appreciate all your input! And damn that’s a lot of different injection protocols you’ve been through!
Well, he also says you can safely inject 600mg of test a week with no harm as long as you keep the E down. I like how he thinks!
@onelove4uk
Read this. Physiolojik is a very respected endo that posted here until his TRT practice and family got too big and he didn’t have time to post often anymore. This should help you
To answer your question, yes take half Arimidex each day of your shot and have bloods checked after 6 weeks of this protocol to see where you are. Everyone is going to be different.
I was injecting 200 mg split Monday and Thursday. Half a pill of Arimidex m/w/f. My E was at 48. I switched to injecting m/w/f and will see where i’m at. I will then adjust depending on the numbers.
Also, each of these people use other things in addition. That plays a part in the equation along with body composition and diet.
Women with breast cancer are treated with aromatase inhibitors at a level that takes their estrogen down to zero. They still die younger, but not from breast cancer, from heart disease.
Women do not have heart attacks at rates comparable to men. That is, until they hit 55-60, then they start catching up. Could that be because they’ve hit menopause and have lost their estrogen?
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@theinneroh thanks for the specifics and answering my question
@dextermorgan that was a very long but very interesting read. Thanks for posting it.
I guess another thing I’ve been wondering about is dosages. I’ve seen people in here take anywhere from less than 100mg/week to 200mg/week. How do people know where they should be? Based on how they feel? Are people trying one dose for 6-8 weeks and then increasing or decreasing the T if they need to? Is weight correlated at all? For example I’m 155 pounds…but if I was 250 pounds, would I have been started on something higher than 100mg/week?
Weight really isn’t a factor. If you’re a 270lb 10% bodyfat bodybuilder then you may need higher doses to retain all of that muscle but for strictly TRT it isn’t that much of a factor. If I were just starting TRT I would start at 140mg (I started at 220mg and had issues) and wait 6 six weeks and get blood work to see where that puts me. I would take the labs and how I feel and decide if I need to increase or decrease dose. Many would say to start even lower like 120mg and they are probably right. You are basically looking for the lowest dose that relieves pre-trt symptoms but also doesn’t cause negative side effects. I would tell myself to be patient because at 4 weeks I’m not going to feel ideal and want to change shit because “I know my body” but if I just wait another couple weeks there’s a good chance I’ll feel much better. It’s hard because our generation 20’s & 30’s want to take a pill and immediately be healed but TRT usually doesn’t go that way.
I would also inject twice a week (every 3.5 days). It’s debatable but I think it’s a good compromise for injection frequency.
Something I wish I did but was too lazy is to keep a log of how you’re feeling each week and any noticeable improvement or symptoms you experience and when. This can help you tremendously when trying to figure out what’s going on. Especially when you come here to ask for help. (I know you likely know much of what I’ve stated here since you are already on TRT although not dialed in)
No studies show any harm of estrogen, if combined with high testosterone. If some doctor says to me something like keeping a hormone in a magical range I would run away from him with 200km/h.
I know a lot of people on TRT with e2 above 80 and they do fine. Long before I learn anything about TRT but I was very fat I had 50 e2 and I was feeling awesome, great libido and so on but freee testosterone was a but above average
Unfortunately my doctor, or should I say nurse, isn’t proactive at all about anything. Doesn’t say where I should be, doesn’t call about labs, basically does nothing and probably knows nothing.
@dextermorgan I’m not even sure how I could do 120 or 140mg a week since I was prescribed 200mg vials for every 2 weeks. I don’t think this nurse is very flexible and would prescribe more but I haven’t tried. Anyways I was just curious about the origins of starting points for different people…I think I feel pretty good with the dose I’m on (energy is much better than pre-TRT, I don’t need energy drinks any more). I don’t have libido but I’ll give it more time and see how things feel before considering a change in dose. I agree that I’d want the minimum needed to feel right. I’m also worried that with more T comes more E2
If somebody can give you a fixed number where you should be, run away from him