Did You Vote Against Gay Marriage?

[quote]joe_r wrote:

do you still believe the earth is flat too? or is that science also bad? carbon dating is accurate to a certain range. because not every step in the human evolutionary process has been found, that means that it doesn’t exist? there is a pretty good record of the evolution humans from apes. there are also scientists working on recreating the origins of life in a lab.[/quote]

Carbon dating is as accurate as the carbon in the surroundings that the fossil is in. If it is not 100% than there are chances for errors! Add in a little presupposition from a biased scientist and there you go. Funny you should bring up a flat earth theory. It was a well known fact that in colombus’s day that the world was a sphere. The reason why most of us think that they believed it was flat was because their science books were out of date. Kind of like the ones we have now. That so called evidence still has one problem a missing link. So while you may think there is good evidence, it is still purly specualtion that is missing and solid proof. Maybe one day we can call it the found link until then there is only a theory.

I can tell that you did not read the article I sent on presupposition. Too bad it might have helped you not have such a bias against another theory.

“creation is not a theory or science, it is a dogma with no evidence supporting it.”

Creation and evolution are the same thing, We evolved from basic elements of the universe. I’d say this constitutes creation of something. Did it happen in the blink of our eyes? Does it have to, if it takes me a week to make a lump of clay into a pot did I still not create it? In terms of the age of the universe and the time it took for humans to evolve, it was less than a blink of an eye.

Quite the complex interaction of law and culture…

The New York Times

Caution in Court for Gay Rights Groups
By ADAM LIPTAK

Published: November 12, 2004

Fearful that aggressive action could backfire and generate public hostility, gay rights groups are planning to limit the scope of their legal challenges to the constitutional amendments banning gay marriage that were passed by 11 states last week.

The groups are making a temporary retreat from their most fundamental goal, winning the right for same-sex marriages, and focusing instead on those measures that addressed civil unions in some way. The groups say that broader suits seeking the right to marry could add fuel to President Bush’s efforts to create a federal prohibition on gay marriage. Many of the state amendments passed by overwhelming margins, and Karl Rove, the architect of Mr. Bush’s re-election, said this week that there was a broad national consensus that marriage is between a man and a woman.

So challenging the new state amendments by arguing that gays have the right to marry under the federal Constitution is unlikely anytime soon. Instead, gay rights groups will move cautiously, mostly on procedural matters in states whose measures appear to infringe on civil unions and benefits for same-sex couples.

Matthew Coles, the director of the American Civil Liberties Union’s lesbian and gay rights project, said that groups like his would adopt a measured pace in filing lawsuits.

“The consequences - the risks - of losing are great,” Mr. Coles said. “And we’re unprepared for the consequences of winning.” In his eyes, he said, winning in court too soon could mean losing in the court of public opinion, in Congress and under the United States Constitution.

The challenge now, gay rights leaders said, is to change public attitudes.

“There is no putting lipstick on this pig,” said Matt Foreman, who is the executive director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and who will give the keynote address on Friday morning at the group’s conference in St. Louis. “Our legal strategy is at least 10 years ahead of our political and legislative strategy.”

His adversaries also expect that court cases will embolden their ranks. Mathew D. Staver, president and general counsel of Liberty Counsel, a public interest law firm that represents religious causes, said that challenges in the federal courts were losing propositions for gay rights groups - whatever their outcomes.

“If the same-sex marriage advocates win,” Mr. Staver said, “that will be like pouring gasoline onto the fire for purposes of the federal marriage amendment.”

Even without such litigation, he said, work would continue for more gay marriage bans at the state and federal levels. The 11 states that passed the amendments join a handful of states that had previously done so, including Louisiana and Nebraska, where challenges are pending.

“You may see as many as 20 more state constitutional amendments in the next two years,” Mr. Staver said. “And you’ll see an accelerated effort to move forward with a federal constitutional amendment because of the marriage and morality mandate the president received in the election.”

In some ways, the new amendments are mostly symbolic, gay rights advocates say. About 40 states already have so-called defense of marriage statutes, including 10 of the 11 that passed amendments last week. The amendments make it more difficult to overturn those laws, but may add little substance.

Gay rights groups also said they had not expected to win in the 11 states, with the possible exception of Oregon.

“If you take out Ohio, Michigan and Oregon,” Mr. Coles said, “these are deeply conservative places where everyone agrees it will be many years before there is any recognition of same-sex relationships.”

Gay rights advocates said they would pursue two kinds of relatively oblique challenges to the amendments because they present low risks. Some of the amendments, they say, violated state laws on how questions are presented to voters; others are simply unclear.

Eight of the 11 new state amendments address both gay marriage and civil unions. But several of those states require that ballot initiatives consider a single issue at a time. Amendments that bar both gay marriage and civil unions arguably run afoul of such requirements.

Furthermore, surveys of voters leaving the polls suggest that many who disapprove of gay marriage are not opposed to civil unions, and the combined question did not allow that compromise.

A judge in Louisiana struck down an amendment passed in September on that ground; the state’s Supreme Court will soon hear the case. Groups supporting gay marriage say they have filed or will soon file similar challenges in Arkansas, Georgia and Oklahoma.

But even the prospect of winning such procedural challenges may give gay rights advocates difficult tactical choices.

“It’s a limited victory,” said Andrew Koppelman, a law professor at Northwestern University. “It’s on the ballot the next time. There are strategic questions: Do you really want same-sex marriage on the ballot again the next time?”

A second kind of relatively low-risk lawsuit would seek clarification of ambiguous language. The language in the Ohio amendment, for instance, said David Buckel, the director of the marriage project at Lambda Legal, a national gay rights group, “really makes you scratch your head.”

The amendment says the state “shall not create or recognize a legal status for relationships of unmarried individuals that intends to approximate the design, qualities, significance or effect of marriage.”

“We presume that this law will be interpreted to be as harmful as it can be to gay families,” Mr. Buckel said, citing the possibility that the law could, for instance, bar a member of a gay couple from visiting his or her partner in the hospital. “We will be filing suit to seek a narrowing construction of the law.”

Questions concerning whether states and their agencies, including state universities, may continue to offer health insurance to gay partners are likely to arise in Ohio, Michigan and Utah, legal analysts said.

Mr. Foreman said, “People are deluging us with calls about whether they are going to lose domestic partnership health benefits, about whether they can complete the adoption of a child, about whether they have to change their living wills.”

The amendment that passed in Oregon will probably not void the 3,000 marriage licenses issued to same-sex couples in the state in March, legal analysts said. But those licenses are in jeopardy for other reasons, and the Oregon Supreme Court is considering the matter.

For now at least, gay rights groups say filing suit in federal court arguing that the new amendments violate the federal Constitution would be treacherous.

“This area of constitutional law, it’s really not an exaggeration to say, is in its infancy,” Mr. Coles said. “That leaves a lot of leeway for hostile or timorous judges to rule against you. When the law develops better and when attitudes begin to change, if you pile up losses now, it’s much harder to get courts to take things back later.”

Moreover, victories in the lower courts, he said, are unlikely to be sustained on appeal.

Legal scholars say that the Supreme Court is not prepared to recognize a constitutional right to gay marriage.

“I don’t think the court is ready to go there yet,” said Douglas Laycock, a law professor at the University of Texas at Austin, “and with Bush appointing new Supreme Court justices it’s even less likely.”

Even a long-shot Supreme Court victory could be fleeting, Mr. Coles said.

“If the U.S. Supreme Court in the near term says that the United States Constitution requires same-sex marriage or that states can’t protect themselves from same-sex marriage,” he said, “the likelihood of the federal constitutional amendment is great. I also think it would set off a barrage of bad legislation in Congress.”

The upshot of the election, Professor Koppelman said, is that the forum for the debate over marriage has shifted.

“The gay marriage issue is being fought primarily in the culture,” he said, “not in the courts.”

So in effect the state has outlawed common-law marriage, and will only legally recognize religious ceremonies. Can’t imagine any legal challenges there.

Since we’re talking about creationism, I wanted to mention my favorite theory. In ancient Egypt it was believed the was only a primordial ocean. Atum created himself from it and seeing nothing else around, did what any guy would do; he started beating off. His divine spooge made all the other gods and goddesses who helped make the physical earth, sky, etc.

Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to go into the bathroom and try to create a new world.

To-Shin Do

hoosierdaddy:

There is no accuracy or understanding in your portrayal of Greek culture. It contributes nothing.

DI

[quote]KnightRT wrote:
hoosierdaddy:

There is no accuracy or understanding in your portrayal of Greek culture. It contributes nothing.

DI[/quote]

oh really?

http://www.utexas.edu/courses/cc348hubbard/

but then again what does a major university know? they are littered thru out latin and greek texts, it’s almost common place, again I urge you to do some research before you make a point

so there’s my accuracy, make sure you read the section about how spartan solider used “anal insemination”… =)

again you say it has no contribution, yes my friend, it does, because you like to draw the comparison that because the Greeks and Romans were ok with homosexuality, that we should to? my question to you is, does that mean that we as a society, should be ok with pederastic relationships as well? do you beleive that it would be ok to send our young boys off to soldiers and successfull men, so that then can, pardon the pun, have their knowledge rub off on them? if you beleive that homosexuality is fine, because it is your personal feeling, then i respect it! just don’t try to base if off of a history that you don’t understand.

anyways, im going to go ahead and state it, i agree with Boston Barrier and his views, especially about adopting the ruling Vermont has as a state, take that for what you will.

I voted for it before I voted against it.

There is in fact evidence towards a genetic disposition for homosexuality. In a study, it was shown that straight males have a preoptic hypothalmus twice the size of straight women. In gay men, however, it was the same size of women. No studies were done on homosexual women. Also, women relatives of homosexual men on average have 2.6 kids, as opposed to straight women, who average about 2.4 kids. Not a big difference, but certainly a difference. Also, if homosexuality is unnatural, why is it found in so many animals? Must be liberal bastards.
I have no qualms with churches not accepting gay marriages. It’s the government, which regulates marriage licenses, which is the problem. There is no real basis for the government to define marriage as between a man and a woman. And there are plenty of gay couples which make much better parents than many bad single straight parents. If the kids get grief for it, that is intolerance and that is the problem of the society.

whew. time to play smear the queer.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
BTW, in case you read the last post and wonder about my own position: I am for legislatively establishing (don’t even get me started about the proper role of the judiciary in a tripartate system) a civil union along the lines of what Vermont has initiated, which extends the economic benefits of marriage to homosexual couples. That would cement the legal status of many current practices and would not threaten the institution of marriage as it stands, and could be defined on its own terms to apply only to two adults of legal age to contract.[/quote]

if the end result is the same, why have two different names for them? i would rather see the government no longer recognize any marriage, and have the legal status a civil union no matter if it is a heterosexual or homosexual couple. if people want to get married, that is between them and their church.

[quote]joe_r wrote:

if the end result is the same, why have two different names for them? i would rather see the government no longer recognize any marriage, and have the legal status a civil union no matter if it is a heterosexual or homosexual couple. if people want to get married, that is between them and their church.[/quote]

No fair making sense.

[quote]doogie wrote:
joe_r wrote:

if the end result is the same, why have two different names for them? i would rather see the government no longer recognize any marriage, and have the legal status a civil union no matter if it is a heterosexual or homosexual couple. if people want to get married, that is between them and their church.

No fair making sense.[/quote]

This kind of reasoning is what happens when you’re not homophobic. Sorry conservatives, that’s what it is. You can say you don’t mind gay folks at all, but if you are afraid of what happens when you treat them as equals, then, by definition you’re a homophobe. Now you may not be the violent or sick kind, but you’re still a homophobe. It’s okay… homophobe is just another harmless label, like “ultra-liberal”… right? :slight_smile:

lothario:

You might be a bit confused (join the club). If someone is afraid of a gay person then they can be called “homophobic.” If someone is afraid of gay marriage devaluing heterosexual marriage they would be called “newtypeofmarriageaphobic.”

Finally, if someone feels just a bit nauseous relative to gay activities they are “homorepugnant” (where have I read that?) Hey…labels are not so bad when they are accurate! :slight_smile:

http://www.truthtree.com/pederasty.shtml

Have an alternate view. And take a closer look at your source:

“Read as illustrations of the historian’s own ideology (or those of his sources or audience), these stories have greater value than as records of historical fact.”

“hey if you want to let your 9 year old get pummeled in the ass by Ray Lewis”

This is kneejerk crap. I can’t imagine how you think sensationalism promotes your view.

DI

[quote]KnightRT wrote:
http://www.truthtree.com/pederasty.shtml

Have an alternate view. And take a closer look at your source:

“Read as illustrations of the historian’s own ideology (or those of his sources or audience), these stories have greater value than as records of historical fact.”

“hey if you want to let your 9 year old get pummeled in the ass by Ray Lewis”

This is kneejerk crap. I can’t imagine how you think sensationalism promotes your view.

DI[/quote]

i read your resource, and to be honest, it further supported my point then your own… yes i understand that there was a larger subculture to it, but at the end of the day, this is what came from YOUR source

If an eromenos accepted a gift, his erastes could initiate sexual relations with him. Not desiring to engage in sexual relations, then, provided the eromenos another reason not to accept a gift. Initiating such a relationship, the erastes commonly started by standing in front of his eromenos, who was also standing, and lightly used his fingers to stimulate the genitals of the boy underneath his tunic, which hung to just above his knees. A little wine could break down the reluctance of a hesitant boy. If the eromenos were receptive, he may have removed his tunic once he had become fully aroused, or he may have only pulled up the lower hem. The erastes had the same options, and then he took a seat in a chair. The eromenos straddled his lap, facing him. A vial of oil would already be at hand on a nearby side table.

later on…

If an eromenos did not want his erastes to penetrate him, an additional popular option presented itself. The erastes could engage his eromenos in intercrural intercourse, whereby the man slid between the boy?s thighs in contact with his scrotum and perineum. Jewish boys seemed to favor this option, for their religion had stricter prohibitions against male-male penetration than did the various pagan Greek pseudo-religious cults. 8 Other than Jews, younger boys frequently found intercrural intercourse more acceptable and less frightening than penetration because of the greater difference in size between themselves and a mature young man.

!!! um, im still confused as to how this dissproves what i said…?

again, while my comment might have been harsh and on the “knee-jerk” side as you like to put it, it was said only so that I could gurantee your attention to a different point, just because the ancients greeks did something, doesnt neccessarily validify it’s naturalness and therefore must be acceptable in modern society, times change, today, a relation between and older man and a younger boy, even if mutual, is considered to be a serious moral crime. Now, i still don’t have a problem with homosexuality, again my beliefs fall along the same line as Boston Barrier, my only problem is you using a history you don’t understand falsely to validify your points.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
lothario:
If someone is afraid of gay marriage devaluing heterosexual marriage they would be called “newtypeofmarriageaphobic.”
[/quote]

I don’t know, buddy, that’s kinda splitting hairs about the issue. I’m guessing that the problem that you have with gay marriage is not that it’s new, but it’s between queers. Case in point: marriage between different races. This was unheard of until recent years, and the strict conservative sectors of both black and white races of our society railed against it. But has interracial marriage devalued the marriages of non-interracial couples? I know you can make the argument that gender and race are different, but I think that this is a good analogy for our purposes here. Maybe… just maybe… it’s a queer thing and not a marriage thing.

Six thousand words in that article, HD, and you reduce it to fucking. The functional details where never the point.

Pederasty had cultural value as a bonding experience, particularly among the Spartans and similarly militaristic societies. Heroism on the battlefield was, and continues to be, based on care for the fellow man. The intimacy afforded by pederasty promoted this trait in a population groomed for war from the very beginning.

In our current culture, it has no place. But to hold the practice to modern standards of black and white is deliberately misleading, and I abhor the attempt.

At no point have I intended this argument to support same sex marriage.

DI

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
lothario:
If someone is afraid of gay marriage devaluing heterosexual marriage they would be called “newtypeofmarriageaphobic.”

I don’t know, buddy, that’s kinda splitting hairs about the issue. I’m guessing that the problem that you have with gay marriage is not that it’s new, but it’s between queers. Case in point: marriage between different races. This was unheard of until recent years, and the strict conservative sectors of both black and white races of our society railed against it. But has interracial marriage devalued the marriages of non-interracial couples? I know you can make the argument that gender and race are different, but I think that this is a good analogy for our purposes here. Maybe… just maybe… it’s a queer thing and not a marriage thing. [/quote]

If that were the case then it would be: “Homomarriageaphobic” as it is not the Homosexual which one is afraid of, but the marriage of said Homosexuals.

What do you think? No?

[quote]KnightRT wrote:
Six thousand words in that article, HD, and you reduce it to fucking. The functional details where never the point.

Pederasty had cultural value as a bonding experience, particularly among the Spartans and similarly militaristic societies. Heroism on the battlefield was, and continues to be, based on care for the fellow man. The intimacy afforded by pederasty promoted this trait in a population groomed for war from the very beginning.

In our current culture, it has no place. But to hold the practice to modern standards of black and white is deliberately misleading, and I abhor the attempt.

At no point have I intended this argument to support same sex marriage.

DI[/quote]

knight, you are still missing the point completely

a) i never assumed you were for gay marriage, that wasn’t the point

b) the comment wasn’t dirrected at you, but at DLM and Mr. Chen, you however, decided to answer for him and deffend him

c) you are upset at me for drawing the modern comparison of pederasty against modern culture in black and white… WELL NO SHIT, that was the whole point of me posting in the first place, i didn’t think homosexuality in general should be compared, in black and white, against modern culture, and to prove my point I showed how the entire subculture of pederastry was at once accepted in ancient times. yes i know it was considered an honorable and favorable thing for a young boy, but the point was that they did engage in sexual relations, something which in today’s society is considered morally wrong. Now, is it reasonable for that to be compared to modern culture, NO! then why did i do it? to show that it wasnt fair to compare homosexuality from a specific time period and relate it to modern culture. You can’t pick and choose which practices you think were acceptable because the ancient civilizations dabbled in them and supporting one will also support your argument. It’s illogical and even more misleading.

Boston,

If you have the time or inclination, maybe you could expand upon this point. Is the problem that the judicial branch misinterpreted legislation, made a decision in the absence of legislation or interpreted the legislation based on the way things are considered now as opposed to the time the law was written?

I mean, isn’t this natural? Does not the legislature now have the power to address this issue and change the nature of the law? Isn’t this what is supposed to happen when the judicial system interprets laws in a way that the legislature (the people) do not support?

Isn’t this the way the checks and balances between the three branches are supposed to work – a back and forth process between them while staying within the confines of the constitution?

Why the big stink about the judicial system? Simply get the legislations to write the laws with unequivocal language that won’t be prone to improper interpretation. It’s not like there isn’t room for the judicial system to try to figure out just what the heck the laws actually mean sometimes. As a lawyer, I’m sure you are familiar with the principle.

Anyway, I’d appreciate it if you could let me know what I’m missing.