Did You Vote Against Gay Marriage?

[quote]Roy Batty wrote:
You are right, Zeb, I am not meaning to come off like I am attacking Christianity. I do have some issues with all organized religion, and that was more the point of my thread. The main point is that I wouldn’t really care what anyone believed if they didn’t feel obligated to convert everyone else. I really do “live and let live”… It is my philosophy. But I have to get up in people’s faces when they challenge my (or anyone’s) right to do so by imposing their narrow interpretation of moral behavior as deemed by their diety. Some orthodox Jews or conservative Christians don’t think that they should ever have sex unless they are attempting to procreate, and they shouldn’t enjoy themselves either, hence some use a blanket with a hole in it. How sad is that? Now, by their definition, just about everyone in here is a filthy, immoral sinner. I don’t have a problem with people’s moral beliefs as long as they don’t want to force me to live by them.[/quote]

There are extremes on both sides. There is a problem with morals. You either have too many or not enough. If gay marriage is allowed because moral beliefs are not a good reason to keep it, then what is next. How can we out law polygamy, or under age marriages? To most of us the idea of a 10 year old getting married is wrong. Why is it wrong? Because most people would say it is morally wrong(or ethically wrong). Well who are we to force our beliefs on them? It is a huge gray area, that once marriage is not defined opens the way for any type of union to exist.

I am not saying that once it happens that every moral will cease to exist. I am just trying to point out that once this can of worms is opened then all sorts of things could happen that cannot be reversed.

I have to add my two cents here…The enforcement of killing someone for not believing in God or other such laws in the Bible are Mosaic Law meant only for Jewish people to govern their own society at that specific time and place. Also, the Sabbath was and still is on Saturday, as you stated, changed by Constantine, which essentially means it was never changed.
As for the comparison of your wife giving you a hummer, unless this hummer is given in public, it is not a fair comparison. Marriage is, in most cases, public information. I understand you saying that it doesn’t bother you if two men or women get married and it will not affect you in any way, it won’t affect me either, but, the nations that have already instituted gay marriage have had a decline in traditional marriage. According to the article above, our government has an interest in increasing traditional marriage, in the interest of a more stable society. This issue is bigger than people want to believe, it is bigger than just you or me.

To some Science is a religion.

Me Solomon Grundy

[quote]Roy Batty wrote:
Zeb,
I didn’t say that wasn’t odd. Personally it grosses me out because I know what I like and it is just a foreign concept to me. My point is, I don’t judge people for prefering that to what I personally prefer, just like I don’t prefer to have sex through a hole in a blanket. Everyone has varying levels of morality. Where do you suggest that the lines be drawn? To you gay acts are immoral, to a quaker, you are immoral. To some gay people, oral sex is immoral. We come in all shapes and sizes. I am just saying that I am not one to judge people for that.[/quote]

I understand Roy, you are a live and let live sort of guy.

It’s just that some people (not you) who say they are like that will accept anything that comes along. As long as they don’t feel the short term consequences they simply don’t care.

What I would like to see is more people questioning why gays want to change a heterosexual institution. If you look at this issue from the other way around it makes more sense. What if heterosexuals attempted to impose their will on various gay rituals and traditions?

Gays would then cry foul, and they would have every right to do so. Therefore, it’s not the heterosexual community that does not have an open mind. It’s the gay community expecting heterosexuals to change five thousand years of history for a tiny part of the population. It’s unreasonable and discriminates against the majority of Heterosexuals who would like marriage left alone. It will also be voted down time after time if left up to the people.

I think Chen is really gay himself.

I think he’s so far in the closet he’s in danger of being garment bag.

If he were any more gay he’d be shitting rainbow’s and skittles.

Only someone that far in the closet would profer such stupendously ridiculous views of gays and gay marriage.

Does this message count as inflammatory?

[quote]SHITKICKER wrote:
the nations that have already instituted gay marriage have had a decline in traditional marriage. [/quote]

Which nations have approved gay marriage? I didn’t think any had.

[quote]rubberbubba wrote:
I think Chen is really gay himself.

I think he’s so far in the closet he’s in danger of being garment bag.

If he were any more gay he’d be shitting rainbow’s and skittles.

Only someone that far in the closet would profer such stupendously ridiculous views of gays and gay marriage.

Does this message count as inflammatory?[/quote]

Uh, yeah, that’s pretty inflammatory. We’re not going to make much progress in effective communication if we don’t at least try to meet eachother in the middle and keep from dropping stink bombs on people. Not that we were making progress, but we should try. We are a very divided forum, just like the rest of the nation, and we have a lot of work to do if we are ever going to repair this rift. Maybe if we can make progress in here we can pass it on.

Zeb, your analogy makes sense I guess. Like I said though… It really doesn’t effect me since I’m straight. Just like it wouldn’t effect me if divorce were illegal because the woman I fell in love with 15 years ago is still with me and I plan to grow old with her, but that doesn’t mean that don’t think it should remain legal. I just try to imagine things from another person’s perspective. I don’t feel like I am in a position to sit in judgement of anyone (based on my wild teen years alone!).

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
joe_r wrote:
it is a preference.
As I said so is drinking and driving, drug dealing, etc.

Your logic is a little lose Joe, have you had a tree fall on your head recently or something. Better take it easy for awhile.[/quote]

drinking and driving can cause others harm. homosexuality does not.

if my logic is loose, yours is nonexistent. did they ever teach you to think in your taliban-like christian madrassas?

[quote]haney wrote:
jnd wrote:
ZEB wrote:
jnd:

If evolution is just a theory, and so far that is all it is. Then why does it belong in a science class and the theory of creation does not? [/quote]

creation is not a theory or science, it is a dogma with no evidence supporting it.

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
“THINGS YOU MAY NOT KNOW ABOUT EVOLUTION”

  • BTG No. 160a April 2002
    by John D. Morris, Ph.D.*
    ? Copyright 2004 Institute for Creation Research. All Rights Reserved.

Science has to do with careful observations in the present. Unlike true science, both evolution and creation are, at best, historical reconstructions of the unobserved past since no one can empirically observe either. [/quote]

are you kidding me? what about the fossil record? that is pretty good empirical evidence. that sentence makes this whole article worthless.

[quote]joe_r wrote:

are you kidding me? what about the fossil record? that is pretty good empirical evidence. that sentence makes this whole article worthless.[/quote]

The fossil record which is based largly off of carbon dating which is highly foulable. Is hardly rock solid evidence.

The amazing thing about evolution is that it is mathmatically impossible for the amino acid structure of one protein to form by random chance in the “4.5 billion years” that the world has been around.

Evolution could be true, but it could also not be true. Since it is not 100% proven (i.e. there is a missing link) lets not start swearing by the science of evolution that creation can’t be true.

Since creation is not proven I will not tell you it is 100% true. I think there are some really interesting points on both sides, so why not teach both sides, and let those who really want to find answers to this question look.

Just look at the discussions that have come from this one topic. Most everyone has had something worth while to say. Since both are theories why shut both of them down? Once we have proven one of them, then we can move on.

[quote]joe_r wrote:

creation is not a theory or science, it is a dogma with no evidence supporting it.[/quote]

Sure there is! The same evidence that Evolutionist use. The problem is that they do not look at the evidence in an unbiased way, neither do most creationist. Presuppositions run a muck all over science.

[quote]vandystudent18 wrote:
Haney,
Well first of all, let me say that you come across as a humble and courteous person. For that, I would gladly appreciate talking with you on a PM some day or whatever (even aim if it saves you time). I am a strong believer in several ethics; just not Christian moral. I also believe there are many things that are unexplainable and unknown about our existance and the capacity of our knowledge. You said “The Biblical answer is God did not create man to be imperfect. He created a perfect place with a perfect life, and a perfect body. Gave us free will(i.e. the image of God) and told us we could choose to obey or not. We chose to not obey. God had already told us what would happen if we did not obey Him, and that is why those things happen.” See, I am having a hard time with this free will concept, because even if it did/does exist, God still gave us the CAPACITY to choose. It seems fairly rational that if he made the perfect environment and life for us, he should have just given us the perfect mindframe (or choice). And why would he give us choice, when he would know that the only other option besides a perfect decision was the decision to shy away from him? So it seems as if he almost intended that. I also don’t see why if everything was perfectly laid out, we would have any reason to digress from his order? Now onto a more scientific point of view, determinists believe everything is due to a cause. And several stimuli do play into our attitudes; genetics, lifestyle, experiences, etc are not the only things that play into our personality and decisions, but also such factors as neurophysiology and a certain amount is still unattributed. I just do not see how humans would have nor should have been responsible if an event like that ever did play out. Thanks though for your input.[/quote]

I sent you a PM through the t-nation forum, but I don’t know if you actually use it. If you don’t use the forum pm, than I can send it to you in an email. Let me know.

Haney

[quote]DLM wrote:
Mr. Chen wrote:
Bob423 and KnightRt-

I’m not afraid to be honest, your right. I don’t believe there is a T-Man out there, on his first exposure to 2 men French-kissing, wasn’t disgusted by it. That is the natural reaction. If you want to let the media brainwash you, help yourself.
If everyday from the day you were born until you graduated high school you saw two men kissing would you be repulsed? This is learned behavior not “natural”.

Homosexuality has always been considered outside the scope of normal behavior. Only in recent decades has the media been able to change this.

Actually only in recent centuries had homosexuality been denounced. The Greeks and early Romans had no qualms about homosexuality, it was widely practiced and not considered outside the scope of normal behavior.[/quote]

yes you are right, the greeks beleived that as a reward for excellent athletic performance and battlefield performance, the men should be rewarded with young boys.

hey if you want to let your 9 year old get pummeled in the ass by Ray Lewis, then that’s your initiative man, especially since the Greeks thought it was normal.

that being said, i don’t feel like stating which side im on, because frankly, i don’t feel like getting into it. I just hate psuedo history buffs that don’t give the full scope or explaination behind a cultural phenominon.

Homosexuality occured in Greece and Rome because they beleived that women were inferior and there was no way a man could have a love between himself and an inferior creature, therefore by nature the strongest love could only be between two men. Boys were often sent to those of successfull men who took them under there tuteledge in whatever aspect, sports, government, poetry. Come nightime, they used the little boys as a place to insert their tuteledge. I guess that because the Greeks and Romans thought homosexuality was acceptable, then so must be pedophilia.

I’m not arguing about wether or not homosexuality is ok or not, or whether or not they should be able to marry. Just stop trying to base your arguments on history that you don’t completely understand yourself.

[quote]squattin600 wrote:
Well, It wasn’t on the ballot but here is my view (hopefully more articulated than other political posts of mine):

In the eyes of our government,since we have separation of church and state, marriage is nothing more than a legal contract binding two people. Thus Gay’s should be allowed the same right of union.

Now if you have a problem with gay people being married, under god (not in the legal contract sense), do not fret because chances are your church, or the church that marries you, will not marry gay people.

Thus the sanctity of marriage will be protected by your church and does not need protection from the state.

I will not even wander into the discriminatory issues involved.[/quote]

Here’s the best post in this entire thread. Props to squattin600. I particularly like this passage:

“Thus the sanctity of marriage will be protected by your church and does not need protection from the state.”

I think that pretty much sums it up very nicely. Anybody who cannot see this is simply tying together their emotional involvement with the institution of marriage and is failing to recognize that the issue here is simply this:

Is marriage a legal contract between two people? Yes.

Do those two people have to be different gender? Well…

I’m going to re-post something I wrote on another thread arguing basically this same topic months ago:

I think most of you do not understand the concerns about the legal impact of [judicially] legalizing gay marriage. It has nothing to do with the Bible - it has everything to do with the worry that such a legalization will weaken or destroy the construct of heterosexual marriage as it currently exists, with a particular focus on the male-female union for child-raising purposes (which is the main reason that marriage enjoys its special legal status).

The laws as they currently exist define marriage as the union between a man and a woman. The rationale that has been adopted for broadening that definition to include same-sex couples unfortunately cannot be stopped there. Lisa Simpson, the actual argument here is not that your relationship is being compared with a bestiality relationship – rather, it is that if one accepts the rationale offered to expand the definition of marriage to a homosexual relationship, that rationale cannot logically be stopped there, and would extend to relationships of bestiality and polyamory. There is a huge difference between the that and the comparison you implied, which I’m sure you comprehend.

The rationale to which I’ve referred above is the rationale that any consenting adults who decide they want to be in a legally recognized relationship should be allowed to do so. There is no logical or legal (believe me, the two are not always coincident) reason why this should be limited to two persons. More troubling still, there is no legal or logical rationale for not extending this argument to closely related adults (incest) or to an adult and a creature whose consent is not required for humans to act upon it (bestiality).

First, examine polyamorous relationships – especially as there is already an interest group lined up to argue for this extension the moment that any sort of gay marriage based upon the two-adults rationale is passed. Without the rationale of marriage between one man and one woman for child-rearing purposes, there is no premise on which to limit the number of consenting adults in a union to two. That number, without the rationale, is arbitrary and capricious.

Second, examine incestuous relations. While it might be argued from a utilitarian perspective that society has an interest in preventing siblings from procreating, it is problematic in that we do not stop people with genetic predispositions to birth defects from procreating. This rationale would also not hold for same-sex incest.

Thirdly, examine bestiality. While some will argue this will not hold because the animal is not a consenting adult, this does not matter. We do all sorts of things to animals that do not require their consent – such as kill and eat them. The only argument against bestiality is a moral one, and the consent principle would not necessarily serve to limit a “marriage” between a man and an animal (incidentally, this also applies to the invalidation of sodomy laws – the rationale is easily transferred to these other “moral” laws).

As you can see, it is the rationale behind marriage defined as between one man and one woman for child rearing that is the limiting factor. Any sort of rationale that tries to encompass “consenting adults” threatens to fall down a very slippery slope indeed – and one that only requires one step (not your common logical fallacy slippery slope argument of if this then this then this then this so watch out).

The above is just from memory from some articles I have read on the subject. I suggest you do the same to understand what you are arguing about. The main author I have read is Stanley Kurtz – just do a Google search with his name and same-sex marriage and you should turn up some interesting debates – Kurtz’s articles always link to the articles he argues against, usually by Andrew Sullivan, a gay conservative who argues for expanding marriage to include same-sex couples.

BTW, in case you read the last post and wonder about my own position: I am for legislatively establishing (don’t even get me started about the proper role of the judiciary in a tripartate system) a civil union along the lines of what Vermont has initiated, which extends the economic benefits of marriage to homosexual couples. That would cement the legal status of many current practices and would not threaten the institution of marriage as it stands, and could be defined on its own terms to apply only to two adults of legal age to contract.

[quote]haney wrote:
joe_r wrote:

The amazing thing about evolution is that it is mathmatically impossible for the amino acid structure of one protein to form by random chance in the “4.5 billion years” that the world has been around.

Evolution could be true, but it could also not be true. Since it is not 100% proven (i.e. there is a missing link) lets not start swearing by the science of evolution that creation can’t be true.

Since creation is not proven I will not tell you it is 100% true. I think there are some really interesting points on both sides, so why not teach both sides, and let those who really want to find answers to this question look.

[/quote]

do you still believe the earth is flat too? or is that science also bad? carbon dating is accurate to a certain range. because not every step in the human evolutionary process has been found, that means that it doesn’t exist? there is a pretty good record of the evolution humans from apes. there are also scientists working on recreating the origins of life in a lab.

creation is not science. it is one religion’s story of how the earth began, before there was any modern process of scientifically investigating it. if you want to discuss it in church or in private groups, fine, but it dies not belong in school.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I’m going to re-post something I wrote on another thread arguing basically this same topic months ago:
I think most of you do not understand the concerns about the legal impact of [judicially] legalizing gay marriage.
[/quote]

you make some interesting points, but look at it this way: why does it matter?

i can understand your points on child raising, but nowadays it is irrelevant. there are tons of single parent families, and passing this law won’t help that. same with unmarried parents.

if three people want to get married together, how does that bring anyone down, or unfairly lift them up over anyone else? it may even add someone else to look after a child.

for incest, as troubling as the idea is, the statistics of negative side effects aren’t as scary as you’d think. and again, marriage rules do not prevent them from having kids and living together anyway.

bestiality wouldn’t be regulated by this either - that would be cruelty to animals, and already covered under laws.

[quote]joe_r wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
I’m going to re-post something I wrote on another thread arguing basically this same topic months ago:
I think most of you do not understand the concerns about the legal impact of [judicially] legalizing gay marriage.

you make some interesting points, but look at it this way: why does it matter?

i can understand your points on child raising, but nowadays it is irrelevant. there are tons of single parent families, and passing this law won’t help that. same with unmarried parents.

if three people want to get married together, how does that bring anyone down, or unfairly lift them up over anyone else? it may even add someone else to look after a child.

for incest, as troubling as the idea is, the statistics of negative side effects aren’t as scary as you’d think. and again, marriage rules do not prevent them from having kids and living together anyway.

bestiality wouldn’t be regulated by this either - that would be cruelty to animals, and already covered under laws.

[/quote]

Now you’re getting into the sociology of it – we can have some interesting discussions on what’s best for child rearing, or why so many societies have frowned upon incest. Or to look at why “easy divorce” laws have been such a problem for society.

Those arguments are perfect for the legislature – in fact, that’s what the legislature is for: to make decisions as to public policy.

The problem with this whole issue is that it was born of judicial activism. That’s why you saw so many ballot initiatives to amend state constitutions – that is the only way the people have to rein in the judiciary from making its own public policy decisions, which it is not supposed to be doing. The judiciary should give deference to the legislature in matters of public policy – the legislature is constructed to make public policy decisions – to have hearings, take in the opinions of experts and the community, weigh costs and benefits, etc. Judges are supposed to confine themselves to the interpretation of existing law, and protecting individual liberties that receive higher protection than simple legislation.

Think about it this for a second: Would we be having this huge reaction if it had been the Massachusetts legislature that passed a law, solely applicable in Massachusetts [as befits our federalist system], creating civil unions? Or is it a reaction against the activist court, and also the Mayor of San Francisco, who attempted to enforce their own public policies? The answer to that question can be found by looking at the nationwide reaction against Vermont’s civil unions: There wasn’t one…