Did Noahs Arc Really Happen

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

The issue isn’t even about the topic at all. Just that one man thinks he is somehow more than others because of his opinion. Just like it is derogatory for people of faith to think that athiests “just don’t get it” it is also so if someone thinks those that have faith in the supernatural “just don’t get it”, that they are somehow chained to childish, “comfortable” ways of thinking.

Listen, I was raised Catholic but I currently don’t believe in any religions. I went through that phase where I started reading Dawkins and Hitchens and I thought that religious people were stupid. But I’ve come to realize that those that don’t believe in anything supernatural aren’t enlightened, they’re just wired differently. Due to complicated molding by events in one’s lifetime, region, culture, books read, interests and role-models along with differences in brain chemistry and personalities people will be inclined to stand on different sides of the same issue even with similar levels of knowledge and access to information.

Even as an athiest, the thought of a god tugs at that natural longing for something that is beyond tangible.

102

As a “man of science” (I gag as i write that, I hate when people reference science as if it’s some club you join, or some set of commandments you live by. Take note one person in this thread) you can’t advocate that since there is no evidence of a god that we can measure, there can’t be one. For how long have we been able to record electromagnetic radiation?

Not nearly as long as it has been around, note: always. Who knows if in the next decade we may discover a new force of nature that binds all things that exist together, similar to The Force in the Star Wars Universe. That could be God or at least the derivative of him that we can observe in our universe. We could never measure it before but thanks to some new breakthrough or paradigm shift, we can.

But anyway, a fundamental flaw in human reasoning is that the certainty of one’s belief that something is true does not affect whether something is true or not. Just as a person of faith is absolutely sure there is a God won’t effect his actual existence, an atheist’s suredness in his non-existence will not make him un-exist.

103

Peeps are starting to get angsty in this thread. :slight_smile: Personally I don’t want to insult anyone or their beliefs. We all believe what we believe and this thread isn’t likely to change anyone’s opinion. I personally throw little insults at the church or make fun of Jesus etc a bit because I am a confirmed catholic so I think I can get away with it.

I don’t insult or mean to insult believers. It’s kinda like a black man using the N word. He can. As an insider I have a little more wiggle room on the issue to say what I think than say a Jew or Muslim ragging on Christianity. I would find that more insulting.

I realize the issue at hand is from the old testament and is therefore derived from Judaism but you get my point.

I have no idea or not if there is a god. But if there is a supreme being/creator, I don’t believe that he/she/it gets involved in the day to day issues of man.

104

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]JSMaxwell wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]JSMaxwell wrote:

[quote]clip11 wrote:

“I’m sorry, but when did we start a conversation about disproving the existence of God? I am responding to your own comments that belittled the intelligence of everyone who believes in God.”

-You did when you pointed out that people of greater intelligence than me believe in god implying that greater intelligence = correctness on this matter.

"You are equating religion once again with children’s fairy tales…which of course is your right as a human being, but once again is a tactic used to act as everyone who believes in God is somehow so foolish that they match the intellectual level of a child. I will ask you again, how does your lack of belief make you better than me?

How does it make you an intellectual adult in terms of religion and how does it make me a child?

How arrogant does someone like you have to be to judge someone like me as less than you for believing in a higher power?

Nothing you have written has indicated any sort of intellectual prowess over anyone else in this thread. With that in mind, how did you arrive at the conclusion that my belief makes me childlike compared to you?

What have you done in life that puts you above all people who believe in God?

Please list your attributes that put the rest of us to shame."

-Yes, I do equate biblical stories with fairy tales because when examined I see no real difference between the two. Both are just stories, created by humans, designed to teach lessons and help people feel better about themselves. I see no reason that Jack and the Beanstalk should be considered just a fairy tale but that stories of the magic apple should be taken seriously.

-I do not think I am better than people that believe. I think that on this particular issue I am right and level headed and they are wrong and irrational, just as they think they are right and I am wrong. You may think me arrogant, but doesn’t it seem silly for an adult to think that on Sunday a cracker and some wine magically change into the body and blood of a 2000 year old dead guy?

"Wait, who in this thread directed any words like this towards you? You are the one who came in insulting anyone like me, not the other way around.

So again, how are you better than me?

Who pushed their beliefs on you?

You may get some responses YOU may not like either."

-Nobody pushed their beliefs on me and frankly, I don’t think I insulted anyone. I did not call out anyone by name. I pointed out that, to me, biblical stories are on the same level as fairy tales and I asked why people still believe in them. If anyone chooses to be insulted by that, they may do so.

-Of course I will get some responses I don’t like, which is why I then post counter arguments. This is how a debate/discussion works. Please have a look at this thread and see which side descended into nasty name calling. I didn’t call anyone an “arrogant cocksucker.”

-As far as what qualifies me to talk about this, fine…

I began studying this topic in 1995. I have read the thoughts, arguments, counter-arguments, and counter-counter-arguments from people throughout history. Philosophers like Spinoza and St. Thomas Aquinas, the debates and discussions of people throughout history. I have studied modern discussions between people like Richard Dawkins, Chirstopher Hitchens, Dinesh D’Souza, Boteach, and Douglas Wilson. I actively seek out arguments from both sides of the issue, study them, challenge them, and think through them. I have had face to face discussions, Q&A sessions, and debates with believers, non-believers, members of every faith I can find, scholars, and members of the clergy. I am a science teacher that spends every day immersed in critical thinking and skepticism…trying to teach children to examine the universe and ask questions about it rather than just accept what we have always been told. After 15 years of study, practice, and experience with this particular subject yes…I claim some authority on the matter.

105

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]JSMaxwell wrote:

Don’t quote mine me. I said, “…foolish and less intelligent than me ON THIS ISSUE.” I fully acknowledge and respect your superiority over me in the arena of scoring with multiple women.
[/quote]

Women and whether or not scoring with them is part of the equation have nothing to do with one whose mouth is so wadded up with his own cock that he is willing to say, "Furthermore I want to clarify. I believe that people who believe in the existence of a god are foolish and less intelligent than me ON THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE… "

No quote mine there and again no typos.

You are no maestro when it comes to the disproving of God. You have developed no theory of relativity in regards to the divine. You have not synthesized an invincible formula of Truth.

Instead you are just a simple little man like the rest of us. Quit waving to the crowd, climb out of your self-constructed popemobile and take your seat with the unwashed masses. You are nothing special.[/quote]

-Your accusations of arrogance fall short as you are the one throwing the nastiest of insults and deeming me unworthy of logical responses.

-No maestro when it comes to the disproving of God? This topic has been covered. It isn’t possible to prove that something doesn’t exist. Burden of proof is on the person making the claim of existence. Therefore, I await your symphony of logic establishing the existence of such a being.

-Theory of relativity in regards to the divine? Your attempt to be impressive by combining words of science with words of religion does nothing for me. It is the same stuff I have heard from people since I was in high school. As there is no divine, such a theory is not possible to develop.

-Invisible formula of truth? I’m not even sure what this means, and I have a feeling neither are you.

-Of course I am just a man and nothing special. Just like everyone else here. We are all just primates. The arrogance is displayed by those who suggest they have some knowledge of otherworldly concepts. Your use of the “popemobile” to symbolize arrogance is appropriate…who is it that rides around in one?

106

[quote]clip11 wrote:
I was wondering is the biblical story of Noahs ark really true. I mean for one, an impossibly old man, Noah, who was 500 years old when he started building the ark and 600 when he finished. And two of every animal in the world being rounded up is also impossible…that in itself raises alot of questions.

Is there any independent evidence of this happening?[/quote]

I believe there’s a lot of evidence of it, not the least of which is the government of Turkey having a national park at the site they believe the ark to be resting at. A site which has what appears to be the “spine” and “ribs” of a boat hull. Another piece of evidence in my book is that just about every culture on earth has a flood “legend” in which a single family boards a boat with animals and saves humanity.

It’s odd that such a thing would be repetitive in so many societies… unless they all sprang from said family and took that knowledge with them. If you actually READ the Biblical text on Noah and the ark, it’s not 2 of every animal. It’s two or seven of every KIND of animal. A smaller number if you consider all domesticated dogs come from a common ancestor (this was verified by DNA mapping). If you break animals down into kinds, there are far less to load.

Also, only animals with “breath in their nostrils” were on the ark. No bugs because they breathe through their skin, and no fish either. And since someone will undoubtedly bring up size with no real knowledge to back it up… if you convert the ark’s size from Egyptian cubits (which Moses would use having been educated as a Pharoh’s son), you’d find that the ark is a little over 2/3 the size of the Titanic.

107

According to modern creationism, change/evolution can happen on a small scale but only for the ‘worse’; they say new ‘information’ cannot be created. Or, in other words, all changes are degenerative.

If all the species were created in the instant of six days, the earth could not support the kind of biomass, it is believed. They would cover up the world.

The entire geological column spanning over a billion years was supposed to have been laid down in days in the flood. Somehow more ‘primitive’ animals and plants ended up on the bottom and more ‘advanced’ kind closer to the top. As if flowering plants are better at escaping the flood waters than amphibians for example.

All the human, animal and plant diseases, all the protozoa and all the invertebrate animals, including species specific parasites that people of Noah’s time did not know to exist, must have survived and been catered to. Creationists can claim that it was just de-evolution and that the information was already intact.
In other words, God must have created all the diseases and parasites and given them incredible phenotypic/genetic plasticity so they could blossom into the incredible diversity which scientists are still unraveling.

Here’s a 1983 article discussing the various problems with the Flood.

108

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]wigsa wrote:
Please tell me that was a troll post.Please.

And please tell me everyone who’s trying to say it could have happened is also trolling.Please.

I mean for fuck sake you’re not serious are you?It’s the most ridiculous story every invented and the only people who believe it happened are those creationist museum freaks who believe humans lived among dinosaurs.[/quote]

You seem very closed minded. Just because a story in the bible isn’t filled with scientific studies of proof doesn’t erase its relevance. As others noted, there is a flood story similar to Noah in every ancient civilization even before the estimated time that story was written.

Think about this for a second, in spite if the Bible being filled with allegory as it is meant to TEACH a lesson, how do you think ancient man would describe a devastating flood that erased all that he knew of the world? Do you really think this story was meant to say that every single possible living creature ever created could fit on a boat of that size?

People who try so hard to “disprove” the Bible that they ignore the intent of what is written completely miss the point.

It makes about as much sense as those who literally believe the Tower of Babel was a huge sky scraper.

Misconceptions like this make me wonder how you think ancient man would describe a tv. Do you think anything electrical or mechanical would be a part of his description?

The Bible was written in a way to reach a very large number of people using poetry, allegory and history. It wasn’t written like a textbook.

So, yes, there could have been a “Noah” and No, this does not mean the ENTIRE PLANET was necessarily under water.[/quote]

Well said.
Besides, fact checking is a convenient way to miss the point. The point is what matters, not how many cubits long the arc was.
The audience this was written for and when it was written is a huge factor.

109

[quote]Htowner wrote:
I think theyve decided that a massive flooding event occurred in that area of the world at around the time when this story could have theoretically happened. I saw something about it on the History Channel (which by no means makes it true, but it was still interesting).

If I recall they claimed that there was a valley (where pieces of Noah’s Ark have supposedly been discovered) in that location that was protected from a sea on one side by mountains, and that a seismic event eventually led to that valley being flooded. Something along those lines. You have to remember that what seems somewhat trivial to us (a valley being flooded) always seemed more grandiose to ancient people because they lacked the over knowledge that we have today. So if you flood their little patch of land, then the world is flooded. Also, if you collect some cows, pigs, chickens, dogs, and cats thats “all the animals in the world” because well…thats all they had in their area. You have to remember people in ancient times thought on a very small scale because globalization hadnt even begun to occur yet.

All that being said 90% of the stories that go down in the Bible are pretty dubious. People getting eaten by whales and spit out later, large groups of people building towers mysteriously starting to talk different languages, etc. To me its an essentially a book of tall tales and fables that for some reason has gone down as fact to a large number of people. [/quote]

Having claimed to have received direct and specific instructions from the Almighty himself is a bit more than a “trivial” event. That an isolated valley may have flooded would now be considered “trivial” by no means explains Noah’s prior knowledge of the event, as told in the Bible. Don’t get me wrong - I have no position per se on this, but I’m pointing out the problem I have with your post.

110

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]JSMaxwell wrote:

[quote]clip11 wrote:
I was wondering is the biblical story of Noahs ark really true. I mean for one, an impossibly old man, Noah, who was 500 years old when he started building the ark and 600 when he finished. And two of every animal in the world being rounded up is also impossible…that in itself raises alot of questions.

Is there any independent evidence of this happening?[/quote]

Of course it happened. The tooth fairy was the first mate, bigfoot was in charge of ship security, the Loch Ness Monster was the activities director, and the aliens were in charge of navigation. The aliens had some trouble because all of their crop circles were covered with water, but they managed. Oh yeah…I almost forgot…Santa was in charge of the animals. His experience with the reindeer helped.

Someone please explain to me why, in 2010, we are still dealing with these stories. How can people that presumably use logic and critical thinking to make decisions for their job switch off their brains when it comes to stories about magic gardens, talking snakes, and people getting swallowed by big fish?[/quote]

People smarter than you and more accomplished than you believe in God. What bothers me is the arrogance that allows some of you to walk around believing that a lack of belief somehow makes you smarter or superior.

I have yet to see this superior intelligence from any of you.

Simply not believing isn’t enough for you. You have some need to throw insults at those who do believe in some lame effort to let us know how wonderfully grounded you are.

I believe in God. Please show me how this makes you better than me.[/quote]

While I don’t agree with the arrogant position that most atheists (most often lazy agnostics whom refer to themselves as atheists to appear intellectual) have, you seem to be rather hypocritical. You just stated that you’ve never met an atheist that is as smart as you and come off as having the same major superiority complex that you accuse these atheists of having. What I’m saying is that everyone does indeed have the right to believe what ever they choose to until they trespass upon the rights of others which happens far too often. Obviously you’ve recognized that this happened just now, but you don’t come off all that high and mighty when you turn around and do exactly what the others guys did, insulting the other group’s intelligence.

111

[quote]Alffi wrote:

If all the species were created in the instant of six days, the earth could not support the kind of biomass, it is believed. They would cover up the world.[/quote]

remember that a day to god is as long as he wants it to be.6 days to god might not be 6 days to people.it could have been billions of years.

112

[quote]Mackk wrote:

While I don’t agree with the arrogant position that most atheists (most often lazy agnostics whom refer to themselves as atheists to appear intellectual) have, you seem to be rather hypocritical. You just stated that you’ve never met an atheist that is as smart as you [/quote]

Bullshit. Show me where I wrote that I have never seen an atheist as smart as me. Please, I’ll wait.

Since this was not said, where is the hypocrisy?

[quote]

and come off as having the same major superiority complex that you accuse these atheists of having. What I’m saying is that everyone does indeed have the right to believe what ever they choose to until they trespass upon the rights of others which happens far too often. Obviously you’ve recognized that this happened just now, but you don’t come off all that high and mighty when you turn around and do exactly what the others guys did, insulting the other group’s intelligence. [/quote]

Where is this insult?

Find it.

Quote it.

113

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Mackk wrote:

While I don’t agree with the arrogant position that most atheists (most often lazy agnostics whom refer to themselves as atheists to appear intellectual) have, you seem to be rather hypocritical. You just stated that you’ve never met an atheist that is as smart as you [/quote]

Bullshit. Show me where I wrote that I have never seen an atheist as smart as me. Please, I’ll wait.

Since this was not said, where is the hypocrisy?

Remember that big part where you said I have yet to see this superior intelligence from any of you? That’s where it is. Superior of course must be in relation to something, and since you are asking to see said intelligence from atheists you clearly and undeniably are comparing their intelligence to the intelligence of believers…but it’s ok…find a straw man and play defensively and you’ll eek a win out of this one.

114

[quote]Mackk wrote:

Remember that big part where you said I have yet to see this superior intelligence from any of you? [/quote]

Oh, you mean where I questioned where the people are who are smarter than every person who believes in God. I asked you to QUOTE IT for a reason. I know exactly what I wrote and what I wrote was not what you wrote. Nowhere did I relate this to MY OWN intelligence.

[quote]

That’s where it is. Superior of course must be in relation to something, and since you are asking to see said intelligence from atheists you clearly and undeniably are comparing their intelligence to the intelligence of believers…but it’s ok…find a straw man and play defensively and you’ll eek a win out of this one.[/quote]

Straw man? You lied. That’s all there is.

115

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Mackk wrote:

Remember that big part where you said I have yet to see this superior intelligence from any of you? [/quote]

Oh, you mean where I questioned where the people are who are smarter than every person who believes in God. I asked you to QUOTE IT for a reason. I know exactly what I wrote and what I wrote was not what you wrote. Nowhere did I relate this to MY OWN intelligence.

Well correct me if I’m mistaken but you are a believer of god, therefore you are relating it to your own intelligence. And what exactly did I lie about? I don’t believe I lied at all, I gave my interpretation of what you wrote. Or are you relying on your tactic of making short, seemingly profound statements to convince me you’re correct?

116

Some minor events happened in the middle east some years ago, someone blew the stories out of proportion, to sell their god. These days the bible is one big metaphor.

117

[quote]Mackk wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Mackk wrote:

While I don’t agree with the arrogant position that most atheists (most often lazy agnostics whom refer to themselves as atheists to appear intellectual) have, you seem to be rather hypocritical. You just stated that you’ve never met an atheist that is as smart as you [/quote]

Bullshit. Show me where I wrote that I have never seen an atheist as smart as me. Please, I’ll wait.

Since this was not said, where is the hypocrisy?

Remember that big part where you said I have yet to see this superior intelligence from any of you? That’s where it is. Superior of course must be in relation to something, and since you are asking to see said intelligence from atheists you clearly and undeniably are comparing their intelligence to the intelligence of believers…but it’s ok…find a straw man and play defensively and you’ll eek a win out of this one.[/quote]

Wow, talk about trying way too hard. Let me explain.

He said that many atheists/agnostics bash Christians and claim they are superior in intellect to said Christians.

He then said, I have yet to see this superior intelligence from any of you.

If you think logically, this means that ALTHOUGH MANY ATHEISTS BELIEVE THEY ARE SUPERIOR TO CHRISTIANS, HE HAS YET TO SEE THIS SUPERIORITY. NO WHERE DOES HE SAY OR IMPLY THAT HE IS SUPERIOR TO ATHEISTS. HE IS SIMPLY DEBUNKING THE NOTION THAT ATHEISTS ARE SUPERIOR TO CHRISTIANS.

Also, using words like “clearly” in an argument is a dead giveaway that whatever you’re about to say is shit.

118

[quote]espenl wrote:
Some minor events happened in the middle east some years ago, someone blew the stories out of proportion, to sell their god. These days the bible is one big metaphor.[/quote]

One big metaphor? Have you read the Bible? What is such a big metaphor about it?

119

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]espenl wrote:
Some minor events happened in the middle east some years ago, someone blew the stories out of proportion, to sell their god. These days the bible is one big metaphor.[/quote]
One big metaphor? Have you read the Bible? What is such a big metaphor about it?[/quote]

It was an ironic commentary on how every “fact” in the bible that is disproved is defended with “its just a metaphor”.

120

[quote]espenl wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]espenl wrote:
Some minor events happened in the middle east some years ago, someone blew the stories out of proportion, to sell their god. These days the bible is one big metaphor.[/quote]
One big metaphor? Have you read the Bible? What is such a big metaphor about it?[/quote]

It was an ironic commentary on how every “fact” in the bible that is disproved is defended with “its just a metaphor”.
[/quote]

OK, so are you saying that facts of the Bible are being disproved? Or just that people that don’t have any real substance to their arguments call the Bible “stories” metaphors?