We Surrender!
What an awesome thread! Very interesting stuff, except for – as has been noted – Tim. Het Tim, thanks for ruining what had been an outstanding debate.
Everything I posted is TRUE. eggnog and yourself have your head so far up Bush’s Ass that you don’t want to hear the truth. Most republicans I know are the typical ChickenHawk type those that talk tough but when their country calls they are no where to be found just like the current administration. So if you call making up stories about the bravery of the Bush family, something that eggnog knows nothing about, a good discussion then you are sadly misinformed. I am not going to let all this BS about how great republicans are go by without a response. Why don’t you tell me what I said that isn’t true?
I served my country have you or eggnog or how about aztec, if not why aren’t you down at the recruiters signing up? We have a saying where I’m from and it goes “Talk is Cheap” republicans are good at talking but will they back it up?
I lost friends in Nam, and I got wounded myself while your hero Bush couldn’t even honor his commitment to the Texas National Guard, He has dishonored all the men who have served with honor. If this is the kind of man you and eggnog support then I would say that you shouldn’t call yourself T-Men.
I support our troops 100% I just don’t support Bush, and that is the right of every American.And anyone who opposes that right is Un-American.
Firstly,an article about the Bush government’s attempt to manufacture consent:
http://cryptome.org/dodd3600-1.htm
Next, I’d like to state that as far as terrorism goes, there are some countries that the USA should bomb before Iraq for fostering terrorism. These are (1) Britian for harbouring Khalistan militiants, (who’ve being shooting and bombing Indian civilians since 1982, and who assasinated late Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi), ‘Azad Kashmir’ terrorists, sponsoring attacks on India since 1988, and Lankan Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) for killing Sri Lankan citizens and the late Indian Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi(2) China for supporting the Bodo and Naga militiancy in India’s Northeast, resulting in the death of tens of thousands of Indian citizens (3) Pakistan for harbouring Jaish-e-Mohammed and Laskhar-e-Toiba, sections of the Taliban, devoted to the destruction of India and the USA (4) Israel for training and arming the LTTE to carry out political assinations, and attacking civilians. (5) Canada for giving political assylum to the LTTE
I’m sure since Americans get all their information from the American TV channels, (which in turn is controlled by a few powerful people like Murdoch), a lot of concerns of the ‘rest of the world’ are never articulated to them.
It would make a lot of sense to occassionally read the newspapers of other countries, to get a perspective from the other side.
Oil. The inflation adjusted price of a barrel of oil has been about $20 in today’s dollars since after WWII. All this crap about cheap oil is just that. Maybe a little investigation into how world oil prices are set and what a high versus low barrel price means to the US is in order.
The second largest source of US government revenue is offshore oil drilling leases. Those monies are received as a percentage of the barrel price of the oil recovered there. If oil prices go up then domestic drilling increases and the tax revenues go way up. Cheap foriegn oil is not a good thing for the US government. Places that pay $4 a gallon for gas do so because of very high self imposed taxes, not because the raw material or refining costs them any more than anyone else. The per barrel price of oil on the “open market” is not simple supply and demand as most would think. There is plenty of collusion among the 7 largest international (note the word international, not US) petroleum companies to manipulate the oil prices to keep them high enough to make money but low enough to keep it flowing. The world is not as simple as many people assume it to be.abbadon, thanks for your response. You mentioned that Republican’s can be “pigheaded.” I agree that they can. However, I would call this conviction. They stand by what they think is right. Let me give you an example of the difference. bill clinton used to take polls to determine his vacation location. Therefore, he was dependant upon polls for just about everything he did. I ask you this: Can you imagine if bill clinton had been our leader during the Revolution? I’ll tell you what would have happened. He would have taken a poll and found that most (estimates range from 70-80%) of the population were against the war with Great Britain. Therefore, instead of doing what needed doing, he would have meekly submitted to any abuses that England heaped upon us. I’ll take conviction any day.
Now for the distasteful part of this post, tim. I’m not going to waste much time here. However, your garbage about George H.W. Bush’s patriotism and courage disgusts me. Here is the official Navy historical website, "www.history.navy.mi/faqs/faq10-1.htm. President Bush won the Distinguished flying cross and completed 58 combat missions. His plane, in the mission you talking about, actually was on fire PRIOR to commencing his bombing run. He completed his bombing run and had enough skill and courage to fly 2 miles off shore before bailing out. Tell me, pal, does that sound like the actions of a man who is panicking? Sounds pretty clear-headed and deliberative to me. Do you know what happened to many American POW’s in the Pacific Theatre? He gave his crew the best chance for survival that he could. FIFTY-EIGHT COMBAT MISSIONS!?!
Your knowledge of the bush history is thin, there are witnesses who swear his plane was not in danger, and that he panicked unfortunately we can’t ask the 2 crewmen that perished, so if Bush took all this time before bailing out how come the other crewmen didn’t have a chance to bail out? If you bother to actually read what people post instead of being busy composing the drivel that you post you would have seen that I didn’t question Daddy Bush’s patriotism just his Bravery. Now what about your other hero AWOL, I guess you approve of his actions during Viet Nam and on 9/11. I would think any T-Man would be ashamed by his actions. Your ridiculous rants against Democrats reminds me of the old saying “An Empty Barrel Makes The Most Noise”
Hey, I haven’t posted on this thread before, but I guess you have me all figured out.
Thanks for lowering the level of the discussion even further.
For God’s sake, now is the time to pick sides. PICK A FUCKING SIDE! You can’t fence sit-whichever side you choose, you go with all the way. I know which side I’m on. I love my people, my culture and my religion. I want it all to still be around in 50 years. Anyone who wants to take that away can burn in hell. I will feel NO compassion for women and children burning in the streets of Baghdad, or any other of our enemies’ cities. Its us or them. If you want to hinder our efforts to defend ourselves, you’re welcome to leave anytime. I’m sure the skinnies will welcome you with open arms, respect your daughters and wives as human beings, and allow you freedom of worship. So what are you waiting for? Fuck off.
Most of you have done an excellent job of arguing your opinions in an intelligent manner. It’s good to see people using thier heads and thinking about important world issues. It’s also sad to see some people making snap judgements, or basing thier opinions more on feelings than fact. The really sad thing is that no matter who is right, I can see this war between the US and Iraq happening. Sadaam is in a no-win situation, admitting arms would have brought a war, denying arms is still going to bring a war. I feel bad for the innocent Iraqi’s that are suffering under Sadaams rule because ultimately they will be the ones that suffer the most during the war and in the following aftermath. At least they may find life more enjoyable once a new democratic government is in place and they have had a chance to rebuild and recover from the chaos. I also feel bad for the american soldiers that will have to give up thier freedoms and possibly thier lives in order to carry out this war. I feel sorry for thier families that will have to be without thier fathers, sons, and brothers and may lose them entirely.
In simplistic terms it is my opinion that this war really is about controlling oil. Taking Sadaam and his regime out of power is in my opinion an added necessity because of his sordid history of abusing his position to commit atrocities and to perpetuate the suffering of the Iraqi people. I believe that the US government is looking to use this opportunity to take further control over the worlds oil resources, but I don’t know if that is necessarily such a bad thing. It certainly has the potential to be abused but we will have to see how the US government handles it. The intricacies of global politics are very complex and much is kept secret from the public, on that basis it is hard for any of us to truly grasp exactly what is going on. I can only hope that the powers that be can find the best possible solutions to the ever present and ever escalating problems that we as a species will have to face. Thanks to modern technology, no man or society will be able to hide from the world and with all of these very different groups of people coming crashing together I think we can expect far worse problems in the near future. A fatalistic view I admit, but it appears that mankind isn’t evolving on a social or moral level fast enough to keep up with our technological ability to destroy each other. Just my thoughts on the subject, I welcome any flames, arguments, or agreement that you may have to offer. Everyone have a happy holidays and remember to appreciate your time spent with loved ones. Finally and most importantly TRAIN HARD!
I think that a counterview is vital to democracy. These people have that right to use their celebrity to present an alternative to the conventional wisdom. It’s sad that they HAVE to do it because the average American gets their information from Dave Letterman and Jay Leno, but it’s good that someone has the balls to challenge the administration in what I think is a ludicrous foreign policy stance toward Iraq. The propaganda carrot dangling before our American public jackass has switched from Al Qaeda to Saddam Hussein (who have NOTHING to do with one another), with no one batting a hypnotized eyelash.
It’s Orwellian.
It’s damn creepy.
“When everyone is thinking the same, no one is thinking.” Not mine, but I forgot who said it.
Harkonnen before you go too deep into moralizing just a reminder.My 20year old neighbour was killed by Serbian aerial bombs 10 years ago.All he wanted was freedom for Slovenia, just like I did. I also regret victims on your side. Have you protested then too?
Oh man, I just can’t hold back any longer on this…
Anyone who looks closely at this political situation must acknowledge several points. 1)the people in our government and media who are the most pro-war (Bush, Cheney, Rice, Limbaugh, various ‘think-tankers’) are mostly the folks who bailed on their military service during their younger years. I call ‘em ‘Chicken-hawks’. Most of these folks bought or sneaked their way out of the Armed Services. G.W. Bush and Dick Cheney especially come to mind here. 2) If any of you truly believe this is about fighting terrorism or saving the downtrodden, you are kidding yourselves. This is about control of oil and money, Bush and Cheney’s future profits. 3) It’s the middle class and poor of this country who will fight and die to increase the assets of these Chicken-hawks and their supporters. I don’t see Jenna or Barbara Bush heading for boot camp - they’re off somewhere elegant having cocktails. Those who want this oil war should have to put their own asses on the line! Now. Like my nephew is doing. 4) Al Gore at least performed his military duties. Bush seems to have spent chunks of his service time AWOL, whacked on booze and drugs. (Although we can’t get any straight answers about those things - that’s too private a matter for the party that tried to impeach a former President for getting some head!) 5) Notice how many veterans are opposed to these conflicts Bush keeps getting fired up about? Some of our good military minds are not supportive of this regime. 6) If this administration, and by extension, it’s cheerleaders, is so all-freakin’-righteous, why do they feel the need to read our e-mails, tap our phones, steal our votes and sell weapons materials to dictators? Doesn’t that make those good 'ol boys terrorists also?
And just how smart can this President and these “leaders” of ours be when most of them can’t even enunciate the word ‘nuclear’ correctly?
Keep heading for war, folks! Down in Texas I believe they call it “thinning the herd”.
- Celebrities should be expected to say stupid things. While some, I am sure, are masters of their crafts who have worked hard for years, most just hit the genetic lottery. How many of us would go see Cameron Diaz if she was ugly? This aside, why would you expect someone whose job is to sing or pretend to be someone else to be intelligent in other areas? Would you expect poly sci majors to sing?
- As for the war, I am bothered by the constant saber rattling, primarily by those who have never been in harms way. Also, the only time I personally have been involved in anything clandestine, the crap in Time, Newsweek and the major papers was so far from what I knew to be the facts, it was laughable. I would imagine that the circle of people that really know all that is going on and why is small indeed. Am I saying this is a conspiracy? No, this is just the way it works. For my part, I don’t trust anyone inside the beltway, and I seriously doubt that many there have anything on their agenda but cash, sex and personal power.
War War War!!! Yeah baby kilL,kill,Kill.Kick Sadams ass! When we’re done with him we can go kick North Korea down the shitter.Who do these people think there messin with. No-one should have weapons of mass distruction sept us.USA USA USA!!! Yeah baby! Then vee can rowl into Poland and France and Blizt England. To further the master race! WE SHOULD JUST RULE THE WORLD AND SUBJUGATE VERY ONE TO OUR WAY OF THINKING. Good idea,like the way you think. By the way,Bush senior OKed the sale of Biological material(weapons)to Sadam in the 80’s.It’s a matter of public record. That doesn’t matter anyway right? KILL KILL KILL-like the way you think
I saw a celebritiy demonstration the other day and I am all for it. It was Pamela Anderson demonstration on Tommy Lee.
Celebrities don’t have real opinions, because they want you to come to their flicks, buy their Cd’s and come to their concerts. Think of it this was; how many celebs have you seen taking a unpopular stance on a subject? Most of the time celebs just take the easy way that most people will accept. Sure, as members of the USA, they have a right to voice their opinions, but if you’re willing to say that Republicans have a hidden agenda you must also admit that celebs have one too. Do you really think that they are voicing their opinions because they are humanitarians? With that out of the way; doesn’t anyone think Saddam is way out of line? He lost the war. LOST the WAR. In all truth, he has no right to say anything because he got spanked and only by a huge mistake is he still breathing. I’m not a super-bush supporter, I think if we are gonna come down on Saddam; we should also come down on Saudi Arabia. Well, I know I haven’t changed any minds. See ya later. bye
Here’s a question why aren’t we acting upon North Koreans? Not to say that I don’t agree Sadaam needs to be stop…
Good point Fitone. Maybe that answers the question as to whether or not N. Korea has nukes?
I’d like to thank 95% of you for this thread, as I’ve been reading it for the last 3 hours and it’s made me a lot wiser. A special exception is made for Apollo, who confirmed himself, in my opinion, as an ignorant, myopic retard.