Forgot to ask Pat and KO if you do the TEAM UNIVERESE Let me know so that we can met or if you need a place to train when your in NYC I can provide it…
http://www.hiiraantoday.com/risac2.htm
This may or may not prove anything but you draw your own conclusions. I suppose I am still making it all up. Like I said, unless you were there you have NO IDEA.
“As we are aware of that a failed nation is always inevitable that?s its sons are the one who?s responsible for that failure, and of course the warlords are the ones we should take into consideration of being the main suspect and the main terrorist.”–That was the most coherent sentence in that entire “article”. WTF?
Why do you assume all T-men are Republicans?
Everything in the article is very coherent. In fact you need to understand that it is not an American writting it but a Somlian reporter. Sorry he no speaky the way you do. I am sure others will understand what it is he is saying. So as you would say, WTF??
Eggnog, thank you for your kind words. Ru12nvme, you didn’t come here to make a point? You’re just expressing “your opinion??” Well, off the top of my head, one STATEMENT that you made was that, “Bush held stock in this company that held this contract.” STATEMENTS and OPINIONS are two different things. I asked you to PROVE that Bush owned stock, seeing that it would not have been possible, since he was the PRESIDENT, and you hemmed and hawed and said something like, “Well, someone else actually held the stock for him, Bush did what they wanted, and when the stock went up they did the ole’ switcheroo.” Nice speculation on your part, but again I ask, if you’re going to make assertions and allegations like that in a public setting, be prepared to back them up with evidence of FACT, not FANTASY. YOU HAVE SO FAR FAILED TO DO SO. George Bush Sr. sent the Marines to Somalia in December of 1993, AFTER he had lost the (November) election to Bill Clinton. Again I ask you, in order to properly understand your assertion, what good would it do Bush, or any stockholders in those oil companies, to have the oil workers (in an absoluately anarchic land, let’s remember) protected for FIVE MONTHS, and then NO LONGER PROTECTED (when the Marines were pulled out in May of ‘93)? HOW ON EARTH WOULD THEY PROFIT FROM THAT? Let’s delve further into the whole mission(s) in Somalia, shall we? (And, by the way, I WILL be sharing my opinions directly with you, as YOU brought the subject up, amid a flurry of bullshit. If you can’t take the heat, stay out of the kitchen). Between 12/92 and 5/93, it was NOT the US’s policy (neither Bush nor Clinton administrations’) to capture Aidid or his henchmen, or to get involved in the internal political squabblings of Somalia. In August of 1993, when there were scant few US forces left in Somalia, Clinton decided to CHANGE THE MISSION, from one of restoring order and getting food distributed to one of CAPTURING AIDID AND HIS HENCHMEN, hence he sent in the Rangers and Delta. You, having been part of the Marine contingent that was there earlier, may very well have met Aidid, shook his hand and patted him on the ass – at THAT point, he was NOT YET OUR STATED ENEMY! He did not BECOME our enemy until August of 1993! On a related note pertaining to the schizophrenia of Clinton’s foreign policy, once he pulled the Rangers and D-Boys out of Somalia, he decided that Aidid should be NEGOTIATED WITH, and he even had US MARINES used as Aidid’s personal bodyguards when Aidid showed up for a peace conference in 1994! (I remember hearing a quote from one of the Marines who had to guard him about how he just wanted to strangle the guy right then and there). Now, if you want to go off and make the statement about Aidid that, “we could have gotten him whenever we wanted,” then you owe everyone a LOT of explaining. What, prey tell, do you purport that the Rangers and Delta operators were DOING there, then? If you don’t have a DAMN good explanation for this, with some SOLID evidence, then I would suggest you keep quiet about it from here on out, otherwise you’ll owe (if you don’t already) the families of those 18 dead Americans a sincere apology (and an explanation for what “really happened”). Since many of the Rangers and Delta operators are on PUBLIC RECORD stating that their mission in Somalia was to capture Aidid and his henchmen, I do tend to believe their word over yours with nary a moment’s hesitation. While I respect (and thank you for) the fact that you served your country, having been there at the time does not mean that you could not have gleaned some false information, or made some incorrect assumptions. If one of your fellow marines, or a local Somali, said to you, “See that guy over there? He’s not drilling for water; he’s drilling for oil!” and you then take that premise and run with it – well, we all see where you’ve ended up. Now let’s look at the basic idea that you were implying, which is that the US was in Somalia for oil. In 1998, Somalia IMPORTED 4,000 barrels of oil per day (read: http://www.somaliasite.com/1028/10001028.html). This is not typical of big oil producing countries. Yes, it is likely, if not certain, that there is untapped oil in Somalia, and that US oil companies, among others, would like to extract it. Your own link, however (see: http://www.hiiraantoday.com/risac2.htm), states that drillers thought it possible to strike oil in Somalia to the tune of about 3,700 barrels per day. Worth extracting – it is oil, after all, but allow me to do a little geographic comparison. A look at OPEC’s website (www.opec.com – click on “member countries,” and then click on a country to the left) shows that Algeria produces 776,600 barrels per day (b/d). (Look at the figures for Crude Oil Production. Multiply the number in the right-hand column by 1,000 b/d, as is labeled there). Indonesia produces over 1.2 million b/d. Iran produces over 3.5 million b/d. Qatar produces over 630,000 b/d. Venuzuela produces over 2.7 million b/d. I could drone on, but you get the point. Right now Somalia is IMPORTING oil, which means that they’re producing BUBKUS. If the hoped-upon well were to be successful, it would yield a paltry 3,700 b/d. 3,700!!! YOU MEAN TO TELL ME THAT YOU THINK THE UNITED STATES, UNDER ANY PRESIDENT (pick your least favorite), WOULD SEND TROOPS INTO A FOREIGN LAND, ONE OF THE MOST DANGEROUS AND LAWLESS ON EARTH, IN ORDER TO SECURE 3,700 b/d OF OIL!!! Are you f—ing KIDDING me, guy??! Any one of DOZENS of countries around the world can piss that out in 15 minutes! YOUR CONSPIRACY THEORY MAKES NO SENSE!!! Sorry to disappoint you! Look, I hear what you, and Mark and others are saying about taking “alternative” viewpoints into account, and that’s a valid piece of advice. I, however, would ask YOU to THINK CRITICALLY. When you hear something that sounds far out of the ordinary, or a little too Sherlock Holmes to be true, DO SOME RESEARCH. And don’t rely solely on untested sources of information such as random websites (rense.com comes to mind) which clearly have an agenda, and are not well respected. Yes, EVERYONE has an agenda – this is true. And Mark’s point about certain geniuses who went against the grain and were ahead of their time also has a lot of validity. But in order to think critically, you must ask yourself WHY the great majority of people dismiss certain ideas, conspiracy theories, philosophers, etc. The majority may VERY WELL be wrong sometimes, but do some serious research into FACTS before MAKING LOONEY ALLEGATIONS ABOUT PRESIDENTS ON MESSAGE BOARDS or in other public places. Read up (in great detail, from NUMEROUS sources) on the more “mainstream” views, as WELL as reading the “alternative” views. There was a video put out by a right-wing political group in the early '90’s about Bill Clinton, claiming that he was doing all kinds of drug-running in Arkansas when he was the Governor, claiming he had people killed, had a thousand affairs, etc., etc. I am about as ANTI-Clinton as anyone you’ll ever meet, but I have the good sense to say that I dismiss about 95% of that is being most likely pure fantasy. You have every right to say the sky is green in this country if you want to. Just be ready to defend your argument against those who happen to have every right to poke holes in it. And find out the truth for your OWN sake, NOT theirs. Again, I’m off to bed. Thank you.
Azteclifter18, thanks for your comments. I appreciate your keeping an open mind. I think we have a fundamental philosophical difference on whether or not there’s anything wrong with American companies doing business and turning profits in other parts of the world, but that’s an argument for another day. You did, however, state that “regardless of the type of fossil fuels, American businesses still stand to make a profit.” Not in Afghanistan, they don’t – that’s what the article was explaining (I may have just misunderstood what you were referring to, though). I do agree with you, as I said in one of my earlier posts (if you scroll way, way up), that the US has a problem with supporting some wretched regimes while taking the offensive against others. We’ve got to figure out a way to rectify this while keeping our interests protected. I don’t think that Bush, or Clinton, or Bush Sr., or Reagan or Carter, etc. have done a very good job of this. Anyway, thanks for your input, and have a good holiday if I don’t hear from you again beforehand. Mark, I have read numerous essays and articles by Chomsky (enough to make my eyes roll into the back of my head), but I haven’t had the desire to tackle an entire book of his. I will take a look at Manufacturing Consent if it’s the one you suggest I read first. As you can probably imagine, the reason I haven’t delved deeper into Chomsky than the articles and such of his that I have read, is because one begins to lose interest when one’s first few experiences with someone’s writings start to ring the “wacko” alarm in one’s head. I’ll give you one example. Catherine MacKinnon is a famed law professor at the University of Michigan (my alma mater). I have read some articles and essays of hers over the years, but I lost interest after reading just a few, and for good reason. I disagreed with most of what I read from her, but then I read about the declaration for which she is most famous, her claim that “All sex is rape.” She claims that women never actually WANT to have sex with men, and even when they do it voluntarily, it’s not because they actually want to or enjoy it, but because they’ve been tricked and brainwashed by our male-dominated society into “thinking” that they want to, and that they enjoy it. You can try to defend that assertion all you want, but when I hear pure bullshit like that I quickly lose my desire to hear more of what that particular nut-job has to say. The credibility of the source has become severely diminished in my eyes. Call me crazy. (By the way, what is a Dittohead? Am I missing something here)? Anyway, thanks, and take care.
Anyway, enough about kosovo and bill clinton’s absolute failure to project a coherrent foreign policy. Not many celebs crying about the balkans when that was going down.
now, back to the original thread, celebs and their opinions. these people are surrounded all day by bottom feeding butt kissers who are constantly telling them that they are so smart and so right. it is no wonder that they have a twisted perception of their own self-importance. just because people respect your talent to act, direct, sing, dance or play an instrument does not mean that talent extends to politics, a true talent and art in and of its self.
although i may not agree with their beliefs, the only celebs i respect are bono and that pot smoking veggie paul mccartney. at least they are using their status to promote causes that are humanitarian and apolitical.
(please stop reading here unless you wish to read another boring political diatribe about u.s. foreign policy in the middle east and the source of pan-arab animosity toward america.)
What happened in yugoslavia was a sin, but should have been considered an internal matter.the rule of law should guide u.s. foreign policy. Sovereign nations should be allowed to handle their internal matters as they see fit, until their problems exceed their borders. that applies to all nations, israel and the palistinians, u.s. and the mexicans, british and the ira, etc. it is when a country begins to project itself through force outside its borders(ie iraq and kuwait) that the international community should act.
as for the argument that the u.s. brought the attacks by al qaeda upon themselves,i don’t think that the u.s. actively promotes itself as the great satan while supporting the spread of fundamentalist islam. perhaps a closer look at where these people came from and what they believe is in order. most of the hijackers and osama bin laden were/are rich saudi nationals. perhaps an oppressive regime holding on to billions of dollars while millions in the region live in abject poverty would have a reason to deflect criticism and point the finger at the great satan? and when you have all the money and control all the media it is quite easy to ensure that the message you want heard is the one promulgated. i mean really, isn’t there enogh money there to create a place where the palestinians would be comfortable and could be prosperous rather than having a third and fourth generation wallow in squalor in those refugee camps? if those people ever realized that israel is one of the most god forsaken pieces of real estate in the area(except for all that med beach front property), and looked at all the wealth being held or shipped out by a select few, revolution would be inevitable.
(By the way, sorry for “hijacking” your thread somewhere along the way and getting off the subject. I know we’ve gotten away from your original point about celebrities running their mouths. It is hard for me not to refute things that I see as being utterly wrong, though. I’ll try to stick to the subject if that’s what you prefer).
Damici, I think that it is wonderful that we have expanded this topic. You are writing posts that I agree with. The size of this thread indicates that we have all given this thought (except for tim). We all have our opinions. I have learned from every post (except for tim’s). I disagree with the democratic, left-wing viewpoints. But, I have read several of the poster’s suggestions. At least I have made an effort to be open-minded (aka…I’m better than tim).
abaddon, T-men are normally Republican. Do you want to know why? Weight-lifting is a sport that does not allow excuses. You can’t call for a recount if you can’t press a certain amount of weight. You can’t “unleash 10,000 lawyers” if you can’t lift a weight. You can’t realistically blame anyone else for your shortcomings. Therefore, weightlifting forces you to be very honest with yourself. The idea of honest, self-inspection and subsequent improvement is anathema to democrats.
ru12, I would really like to hear how you would deal with Iraq? I want like you to go from A to B to C and project out likely consequences. I am very interested in your response.
Damici wrote “I know we’ve gotten away from your original point about celebrities running their mouths. It is hard for me not to refute things that I see as being utterly wrong, though.” “utteryly wrong” Is a statement that one would call ones opinion. What is wrong to one could be totally right to another. It is the responsibility of each and everybody on this board to draw their own conclusions based on statements, information, websites, media etc. There really is no way to prove ANYTHING of what anybody has said. Think about it first before anybody goes and answers. Just because 10 papers print something does not mean it is true. Just because a Marine who was stationed somewhere does not mean it was true either. Just because one finds a thousand websites with something pertaining to the topic does not mean it is true. That information is based on opinions and viewpoints and beliefs. It is up to one to form an opinion and conclusion based upon that information. So in essence it comes from ones internal beliefes on how one will interpret information provided to them. Research, what is that? Look at the word, re and search look over and over again until one satisfies his/her beliefes. I would never claim anything I said to be “the truth” I would not do such a thing as I know that one will interpret the information for themselves and make an educated decision. So again, no debate here. I need not convince anybody of anything, they will convince themselves. Nowhere in my posts did I say, “This is the truth and you had better listen to me, trust me, trust me.” I offered up information and I showed everyone certain pieces from different places which would allow one to draw their own conclusions based on what they choose to BELIEVE to be what they might call the truth, just as others have done. It is my belief that the word “held” was used for past tense participle. If one was misled then one would have to go only as far as oneself to blame. If one drew a conclusion that I meant something else based on what I had written then should that individual apologize to me for incorrectly misinterpreting the information? It is my opinion that one would never apologize for such a thing and I would never ask for such unreasonable things. Why should I ask for one to apologize for their opinion? I think one is being unreasonable in doing so. That is like me asking one to apologize for saying red is the best color. Like I have said before and this is ones opinion, that there is no debate here. It is all opinions, None of it can be acurately proven. If one thinks it can be done then have at it and I wish you the best of luck on your journey young hobbit. Now, is it possible for the American oil companies to hold influence over a President or a presidential campaign? In my opinion Yes it is. Is 3700 barrels a day worth it? Maybe it is and maybe not. The thing that was left out of Damicis’ post was “Petroconsultants says the small number of drilling projects in the region should be taken into account (about 160 wells over 1,100,000 square kilometres.” Wow, so little wells for such a large amount of land. So in essence it is a crap shoot for them and they have not really explored the area enough to say for sure if it would be worth their while. So it could be worth it they just do not know yet. So there is potential. Now I ask everyone to re-read my original post to Eggnog. I offered up another side saying it(Operation Restore Hope) was not just a humanitarian mission. Which, in case one has not figured it out, is my opinion. I feel I have proved the point that “it was not just a humanitarian mission” I do not need to satisfy anyone elses interests as I myself am satisfied and I know human nature enough to say that one will never be satisfied unless one satisfies his/herself. The posts then got misinterpretted and pounced on and twisted and turned and regurgitated and then spit back out in the form of anothers interpretation and opinions. This is a classic example of how media can work, thanks to the ones showing us a demonstration first hand. I am not going to defend my position as I do not need to just as I feel nobody else needs too because we are all adults and can think for ourselves. I will however try to reclarify this. Fact: I was in Somolia. Information obtained from my service record book, from 921209 to 930421 which in civilian terms is 12/09/92-04/21/93. I had left by the time the Rangers did their operation. Do I agree with what happened in the Ranger incident, what service member would?(question not meant to be answered, but inserted to make one think) My answer is No I do not agree with the way it was handled.(this answer of course is based on information and ideals I have obtained though military enlistment, others opinions may be different) During my deployment in Operation Restore Hope there was a Marine that committed suicide. (Really can’t prove it unless you visit his gravesite), but I watched my freind blow his head off while deployed in Somolia and then saw the Marines sweep it under the rug (my opinion of it being swept under the rug based on the actions I saw of the command) because of all the media hype going on over there. (my opinion of media hype because there was alot of media reporting back to the US, subclarification-alot is more than 10 reporters in my opinion) Imagine if the US media got wind of a young kid who was having problems with his wife and they refused to send him home to his wife knowing he was suicidal (not just my opinion but the opinion of others as well serving with him at the time) but your command can send some jackass home who aquired blue balls because he refused to masterbate based on religous beliefes.(I guess this statement could be called speculation but you are going to have to draw your own conclusion as to if this individual could perform his duties while his balls are swollen and sore because he would not stroke it because God would punish him) The NIS and MP’s ruled the suicide an accidental discharge and paid his wife 200,000.00 insurance money.(imagine what would happen to the commanders if they did not rule the suicide and accidental discharge when they were all aware of the young marines situation and the media got a hold of the fact that he had made several requests to return home through the chain of command up as high as the battalion commander? Do not know anything accidental about walking in a room full of fellow service members saying,“Hi guys” moving in position over his weapon sticking it in his mouth and pulling the trigger in a secured area where being locked and loaded was not permitted and clearing of the weapon had always been practiced and witnessed by another servicemember, once inside the area you are on the honor system that you will not load your weapon) Now I try and think maybe they did a good thing by issuing it “accidental” because his family got the money but they could have saved this kids life. (purely speculation, however one could draw a conclusion that his family was his benificiary due to the fact that power of attorneys and insurance information was taken care of before deployment) So is 200,000.00 worth a life? (this will be ones opinion) Not to his son I bet it is not.(this is my opinion). Lance Corporal Rose, look it up and see if you find anything about his death, bet the media was too busy for that. I suppose I made it up too to attract attention to myself. Just goes to show that the media is selective in reporting what it wants to report and one cannot believe everything one reads. If anything was found it would be an accidental discharge reporting. I will agree with Dimici on one thing, one minute we (the marines) are kissing Adids ass the next we are hunting for him.(shift in operation towards the end of the mission) One minute it was a humanitarian mission the next it is disarming the whole fricking country.(my opinion based on having to go through thousands of homes disrupting Somolians daily lives and living quarters to find hand grenades, rocket launcers, automatic rifles, ammunition etc.) Gaurding the oil drillers came towards the end of my service in Somolia.(I refer to them as oil drillers as that is what their occupation was in the US. Oil drillers would be qualified to drill for water wells in my opinion) I did not say that they were specifically there to drill for oil I said in my original post before it got regurgitated, “oil er, water” or something to that effect.(If one misconstrued this statement, which was my opinion, then they need to apologize to themselves for letting themselves fall prey to someone elses opinion) The water filtration systems came from an entirely different entity.(unsure of what company directly was providing those but it was not the oil drillers providing the repurification systems) Our unit was not directly involved with the filtration systems.(this does not mean however that some other unit or military force from our country or other country did not have involvement, I cannot say). The oil drillers that I speak of were at Camp Bardera which was occupied by the Army and US Marines and some Air force personel.(Marines occupied it first with Air Force, there was a runway there so aircraft could land. Army came and took over occupying the area, built a Camp and turned it into a mini base with tents) I and four others physically watched these guys(the oil driller and his crew) take core samples.(this would be during the second deployment of our unit to Camp Bardera) We had very extensive conversations with the lead driller,(this is how I found out his salary, intentions, what the core samples were for, who he worked for,etc.) not a whole lot to do while you are sitting in the middle of nowhere but get to know the people you are with. Guarding them was a sidejob so to speak. We(our unit) really were not suppossed to do it but I am not one to question my orders when given to me.(the whole mutiny thing really is not worth my life, I would only have to use speculation on this decision though as I have never personally known anybody to commit mutiny to include myself) These guys(the oil driller and his crew) had no weapons and we did not want them getting killed.(Imagine that) Before we left we ensured that they(oil diller and his crew)were armed even though they were not supposed to be.(civilians are not allowed to carry weapons just because they work for the government) We issued them weapons that our unit had confiscated from the surrounding population.(I was told it was OK by our commanding officer as he fealt that it was inappropriate that these American individuals were going to be left on their own without some sort of way to defend themselves and we were going to be leaving back to Mogadishu to return to the states in a few weeks leaving the oil driller and his crew with his ass in the wind sort to speak) Our unit circulated thoughout the country(referring to the units entire tour of duty while deployed in Somolia)and returned to Mogadishu to prepare for deployment to the US. This is what I saw when I was there. There is land everywhere but yet nobody grows anything on it. The clans are too busy waring with each other and themselves over who’s land it is or what clan owns what. Some loved the Americans and alot of them hated us. One minute these people are telling you they are glad you are here and the next thing they are shooting at you trying to kill you, which by the way you were not allowed to return fire without first requesting permission.(in the begining, after getting shot at so much they changed the rules of engagement) It was all a political game,(my opinion) it was not until the end(as others have made comment on) that they had shifted to capturing Adid as we started running patrols around his residence and surrounding areas daily with no success. Bush by this time is out of the picture.(never claimed he was in the picture) So I will apologize for saying that we could have gotten Adid whenever we wanted. I should have said, we should have gotten him when we had the chance but for whatever reason it was not on the US agenda at the time. So in a manner of a couple months Adid went from being Ok with the US to being hunted by the US. The Army Ranger incident should never have happened.(my opinion) Those men paid for someone elses mistakes(my opinion) but in retrospect we(all service members) signed the line and we have a job and we know we are putting our life on the line. So one should stop asking others to apologize for ones own misconceptions. It is easy to sit back behind a computer and type on a machine that probably was not even made in this country and ask others to apologize for information that one has digested, twisted, turned, regurgitated and spit out before the masses in order to draw attention to ones self in the hopes that they may get a little attention or self gratification. That is easy for one to do. What is hard is to change ones ways and beliefs and accept the possibility that one might just actually be right. To do that would mean that they would have to accept the fact that they were wrong. I would never ask one to put themselves in that position however if one ever feels so inclined to do so it is entirely up to them. I would like to say that I have enjoyed EVERYONES comments and opinions presented on this thread. Hopefully we have all educated each other a little bit more than the previous day and opened ones eyes just a little more, sometimes the view from another perspective may not be liked but it is a view none the less and remember, we are all entitled to our own. All have a Merry Christmas or whatever it is that you might celebrate. Celebrate just to be alive because Lance Corporal Rose is’nt. Funny, I was in Somolia 10 years ago on this date. Does not seem like it has been that long. For those of us that fight for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know. Everyone have a good one.
My last post entered after yours. I just saw yours now and must say that I am totally flattered and honored that you would ask my opinions. My honest answer is I do not know just yet about Iraq. It is my opinion that Bush wants him (Sadam) out of office to finish a job Bush Sr. did not do. I am not laying blame or anything of that nature. I know the son and the father are close and I am quite sure Bush Sr. offers advice to his sons as any good father would to include advice about Iraq. It cannot be proven, however it is logical. I sometimes think we are doing the wrong thing. Iraq really has not done anything to us yet. All this selectivness is getting out of hand. I am sure we could find any number of reasons to start a war but we could do that with any country at any given time. I think the US should stay out of things for awhile and see what happens. It always seems to be our country that is sending all the troops, providing all the money, influencing other countries, influencing the UN. in an attempt to make allies all the time. Don’t we have enough allies already? Sure you might get more allies but won’t you aquire enemies in the process as well? We can already blow the world up seven times over. I feel our society is a selfish people. I feel we(US government) do push our ideas and values on other countries. If they wanted our American way of life they can come here as so many millions have done. With that being said I also feel that we have one of the greatest countries on this planet where we are free, in a sense, to do what we want. We have problems and the other countries look at our problems and might say that we should take care of our own before we go messing in other countries problems and it is really hard to argue with a statement such as that. We will never be free from terrorism no matter what we do. Everyone wants to believe that we can actually get rid of it when we can’t no matter what you do. I think there are alot of ways to minimize it but the American people are not willing to do what it takes. It would mean giving up ones freedoms to an extent. This I will stand firm in, in order to mimimize terrorism we as a society would have to give up freedoms and that is not going to happen so a strike at any given time is inevitable like it or not. Taking Sadam out of the picture is not going to stop terrorism, in fact it might make it grow. Nobody knows for certain yet. I am against any American servicemember giving up their life for another country but then again as I have said before, we know what we are getting ourselves into when we join. Nobody wants to go to war, espescially not our countries sons and daughters who are enlisted or their parents, wives and children, for that matter. I guess you can say I am twisted in the head because in the same breath, I am proud to say to the point of tears that I served my country. This is why I have stated so many times, unless you are there you do not know the emotional trauma one goes through. It is hard befreinding some of these people in other countries and then getting shot at by them at the same time. It makes you feel as if you are doing some good when another countries citizens praise you everyday while in the same breath some want to kill you just for being an American. I still have not watched “Black Hawk Down” because I think it will hit a little too close to home. I will now though just to see if they portrayed the situation acurately. It really is a tough call Eggnogg. Now for a moment, lets imagine what it is like to be the President and have to make the decisions that are having to be made. How much sleep do you think he gets at night? What sort of person does it take to run a country? Sadam is probably sitting on his ass right now saying Bush is a looney, while knocking back a camel burger. Sadam probably feels that he is acting in his countries best interests as well. Hard to call this one. This is purely speculation and I will throw this out for entertainment purposes but my neighbor is with intelligence in the Air Force Reserves and he is a pretty hush hush guy if you know what I mean. He is aware that I was in the Marines so he talks to me a little more. I asked him about two weeks ago if he was ready to go to war and he said we are’nt going anywhere and they de-activated his unit, he was slated to go at the end of this month. I do not think there are any short term plans slated for Iraq. If there is a war it is going to take some time to build it up. Sorry I could not really answer your question. It seems as if I do not have a position on Iraq. All those countries are powder kegs and at any moments notice can start a war. I will end it with one last note and I am not a really religous man but I know there are a few out there and someone correct me if I am wrong but does the bible not say that whoever unites with Isareal will be favored in Gods eyes or something to that affect?
Your last two posts were terrific. I read every word. Thank you for your honesty. That takes courage.
I agree with your concerns. I am frightened by the prospect of being called to active duty. I am scared of war. However, the idea that my loved ones will be subjected to small pox is too terrible to contemplate. I would do ANYTHING TO STOP THAT!!! That includes giving my life. I appreciate your service. However, do not try to imply that military men/women have a monopoly on courage. There are other dangerous and important ways that many of us serve each day. Some of us are constantly laying our lives on the line. By the way, I could easily refer to you as protected by me.
We have been attacked. Our way of life is under fire. How we respond to this will define us. George W. Bush has received the Congressional green light to use whatever force he deems necessary. However, he has not given the order to invade. It says much about the man that he is willing to pursue diplomacy before resorting to war. Whatever you personally feel about W., you must give him credit for restraint.
Would you defend your father? I would. They tried to kill him. However, my opinion is that hussein needs to go for national security reasons. I also feel that W. understands this. You say hussein hasn’t done anything yet. Well he has and you should know it. He has funded terrorists. End of story. End of regime. It’s that simple. The international community MUST NOT ALLOW THIS TO OCCUR. Who has the power to enforce the law? We do. Unfortunately, as you know from your somalian experience, there are some places on Earth that only the army makes law legal. You think it’s only a vendetta against iraq that fuels W? Check out the current discourse with North Korea. W. has laid out his plan with his “Axis of Evil” speech. You will see that iraq is 1/3 of the regimes that are in trouble.
Again, thank you for your thoughtfullness. Have a happy holiday.
Thanks man, right on. I guess so, but hey that’s America. I don’t agree with what Clinton did at all and that goes waaaaayyy beyond foreign policy. I’m a green, having left the democrats behind a while ago . . . ha I’m only 18, just voted in my first election (and worked on a campaign so I’m no armchair activist!)but still I feel betrayed by the democrats. They are liars, hypocrites of the worst kind. Yeah, when I said America still stands to profit I wasn’t referring to Afghanistan specifically, I was just trying to point out that regardless of where oil, textiles, food whatever ends up, if America produced shipped it whatever, the gov’t makes money. While we disagree on exactly what US interests should be protected with military force . . . I do agree that it is an insult to lie to Americans about reasons for using military force against another sovereign nation. Kay, now I’m rolling, I got to San Diego State and there is a contributor to our school paper who is a staunch republican. However, she recently mentioned in a column that we must attack Iraq because their “president” tortures his people and the like, and they can attack the US. This is a problem to me, it shows a lack of coherent thought. If we attacked every country with weapons of mass destruction that is at odds with the US . . . North Korea, Pakistan, Libya, etc. but we don’t. Perhaps in the future . . . but that’s another discussion. Humanitarian reasons? The Saudi princes are just as sadistic as Saddam and his cronies, but we kiss Saudi ass to keep a hand in their oil production and to TRY and use their bases to launch attacks against Iraq. Then, when they deny us the use of their bases, no retaliation. He gasses his own people? I believe DDT was sprayed all over American towns in the 50’s on unsuspecting civilians, and it is now found to be carcinogenic . . . so it is frustrating to read these things. Anyways, my point is it is refreshing to read well informed viewpoints from the other side, which I already said to you in the last post. Thanks a lot, keep training hard!
I remember hearing about the woman you spoke of; Catherine MacKinnon. If she indeed said those things then I would agree with you that she has some deep-seated psychological problem that has manifest itself in this extreme nature. However I haven’t read her articles so I would reserve my judgement until I do. Now regarding Chopmsky. I don’t want anyone to think I’m his bootlicker. I don’t agree with everything he says. For instance I disagree with his treatment on the subject of economics. Pure economics that is. I mainly agree with him in his assertions of U.S. interventionism and where it has gotten us. If your familiar with Pat Buchannon or Joesph Sobran they feel the same way. I also agree with him on the propaganda role that is played by the corporate media. Their is an elite group of people who own and shape the news. The way Chopmsky dissects the mass media is skillful to say the least. He presents the double standards of the U.S. media and politicans. What was the difference between the Russian invasion of Afghanastan and the U.S. invasion of Vietnam? Or the genocide in Cambodia under Pol Pot and that of a pro-american government? The so-called “free-press” is here to serve the needs of those in power. People who are in managerial positions within the press are of the same family of the elites. You will not get into this upper eschleon unless you conform to the ideas and asperations of those who own the power. It took me awhile to accept this, but after all the reading I’ve done I thought to admit the truth - no matter how painful - was better than being brainwashed by the mass media. When I read some of these posts the media spin just seems to leap out at me. Their are so many here who just seem to parrot whatever they hear on the news. It is certainly disturbing to most people when someone challenges their long held beliefs and assumptions about American altruism and humanitarianism. But I don’t think anyone does it quite like Chompsky.He is relentless in his logic. Try out Manufacturing Consent and you may never look at mass media the same again. Peace
EggNog, it’s an interesting point. Democrats have certainly been gulity of these things from time to time. But let’s expand on that point. I hope you won’t object that a Republican in general thinks that he’s always right. To a Republican, somebody who holds a different opinion is wrong. Republicans are right, Democrats are wrong, Christians are right, the rest of them are wrong, Americans are right, the rest of the world is wrong, straight people are right, gay people are wrong, etc. If there’s a quitessential T-man out there, it would be TC. Ask TC if he’s a republican! Republicans shoot first and ask questions later. True enough, they are much more decisive, than the Democrats, but they are also much more pig-headed. I don’t think this is what a T-man is all about. You should be flexible and open-minded about training and nutrition, be able to try new ideas, be able to admit that you’re wrong. “Flexible” and “open-minded” have never been used to describe Republicans, wouldn’t you agree?
Oh, and by the way: if you think I get all wrong about the Republicans, who do you think is trying to push pro-hormones and pro-steroids off the market? Democrats?
At what point does flexability and open mindedess become weakness? A person should keep an open mind to a point. In my opinion, too much of an open mind is hazardous. If a person believes something why should’t they fight and argue their point? Why is it that anyone that is a Christian, believes homosexuality is wrong, or believes anything else is close minded? When people believe something with a passion, how are they close minded? Basically, I guess that a person should change their minds 100 times a day, and never say that any new information is wrong. Then nobody would ever believe in anything because they are keeping an “open mind” and changing themselves 100 times a day. Believe what you want, say what you want and fight for your opinions. Say what you will about the Republicans and the Christian right, but atleast you know what they stand for. Does anyone know what the Democrats stand for?
Damn hippies!
Eggnogg, not going to believe this but I had my response all typed out and I did not have anything up at the header so it did not send and when I back paged it was blank in the writting area so let me try this again. First and foremost I will agree with you when you say that it is not just American servicemen and women that protect this country, there are others that hold these positions as a civilian that would involve the same tasks. Whatever job you do in protecting the country it deserves merit and commendation just as anybody should recieve for doing such things. Again everything one does is voluntary. There is one downfall though, you just cannot quite being a servicemember and you can be involuntarily extended during a wartime situation as many in my unit were. First battalion seventh marines. Task Force Ripper and Task Force Papa Bear during the Gulf War. This was the unit I was with during my service in the Marines. I was not in Saudi but did join due to the fact that the war was going on. I had alot of different, less mature views back then as I was only 18 years of age. I refused to pay 1.80 a gallon for gas so I would walk to work or ride a bike, I am origianlly from Michigan so it was pretty damn cold. I thought what the US was doing over there(Iraq) at the time was the right thing to do. It was affecting the American economy so hey they should have their asses handed to them right? That of course was my opinion back then. They(my views and opinions)have changed since being in and with age one wises up a little, or I would like to think so. I will be 32 years of age in Feb. so I am still young but think I have learned enough to say what I am about to say. I have been privelidged enough to have been to many other countries. Iraq was not one of them. I have heard the stories from my unit who had just freshly returned and some were not pretty. Their were Iraqis surrending by the thousands. They had no food, they were tired. The Americans basically saved their ass. Some spoke of finding women that had been found naked with their breasts cut off in bunkers. Others spoke of bunkers that were so deep in the sand that no matter what size bomb they used it would never reach the depth of the bunker. Now this could all be bullshit and it could be made up to impress someone new to the unit so I took alot of it with a grain of salt. Then you start talking to others outside your unit and they start saying the same things. You just have to wonder what is Sadam doing to Iraqs people. Now you wrote this, “However, the idea that my loved ones will be subjected to small pox is too terrible to contemplate. I would do ANYTHING TO STOP THAT!!! That includes giving my life.” It does not require you to give your life, just your freedoms. Are you willing to do that? Before you answer, hear me out. First off our freedoms are what allowed these people gain access to our country(through immigration). Second, these people were trained in the US to fly the planes that used in the terrorists attacks against the US on 9/11. Now think of the planning that this sort of mission took. It took years. Think of the determination of these people. Now you tell me is there anyway to protect against terrorism and what good is it going to do to eliminate Sadam? He is one piece of the big puzzle. If the US wants to eliminate Sadam why do they not just have him surgically removed? Why is this such an insane idea? Does this make us bad for doing such a thing? Why send a whole army to do what a few Special Ops guys could do? Is it the fear of the US getting caught if they did not succeed in the mission? What is stopping the US from performing such a task? They do want Sadam out of office right and surgically removing him would accomplish that and a big piece of the Terrorism Pie right? No it would not. There is not argument on this. There will ALWAYS be terrorism. Terrorism is designed to strike fear in the hearts of people. This is why it is so effective. Anybody can get to the US at any given time and perfom whatever tasks they want because alot of these guys operate in small groups or networks called cells. Now add on top of that you have American terrorists. People that live right here in America that are willing to put it all on the line for their beliefs. Funny thing about American terrorist though, they do not want to die in the process it seems. Our American way of life as you spoke of is the reason we are being attacked. One could not possibly expect to be secure while not wanting to subject themselves to a full strip/cavity search and even then you are only minimizing the possibility of a terrorist attack. Here is an example of what I am trying to say. One goes to board an airplane, you walk through security and they look for metal objects. Unless you actually strip/cavity search this guy he could have anything in his pockets containing glass, plastic, any non metal object containing who knows what, gas to start a fire, viruses, c4. He is allowed carry on baggage as well. These are simple freedoms that we do not want to give up. We want to be protected but yet we do not want to be intruded upon either. So lets say we all did allowed these intrusions into our lives. There is still ample opprotunity to carry out a terrorist attack. You have containers that come from other countries and you are relying on those other countries to be secure as your own, not likely to happen. So our American way of life is the problem now. We import from other countries, are we going to stop that too? So Sadam is just a small piece of this puzzle. We have viruses too. Antrax, small pox. We have them all because we study them to try and find cures or antidotes for them do we not? So are we just as guilty? We have the potential as well to do the same things Sadam is doing. Can it be proven that we do not have these capabilities? What even makes it worse it that the US has let servicemembers die from Gulf War Syndrome. The US government denied there was any such thing even as people were dying, they did not know why but because the US government said there was no such thing as Gulf War Syndrome people are dead. Now they say there is such a thing. A little late for the ones that are dead now eh? What about Agent Orange? We are not so innocent is what I am trying to say. So before we go blowing up anything I think we should have all our ducks in a row and make damn sure everybody knows what the US intentions are. The government does not like to share the whole agenda with its people. In short, we should practice what we preach to other countries. On a sidenote, if anybody ever gets the chance pick up a book called “On Killing” by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. It is about the psychological cost of learning to kill in the war and society. The book explains that the closer you are to someone(distance) the harder it is to kill them. In short, it is easy to sit back thousands of mile from the country and say go get him, alot harder to do it looking into their eyes. We need to learn to protect ourselves first and stop taking everything for granted instead of always pointing the finger at every other country saying it is their fault. Some of it is our countries own damned fault, am I the only one that is man enough to admit this? Thanks again for the very interesting thread Eggnogg. A special thanks to Damici, Mark, Azteclifter18 and if I missed anybody you too, for making this one of the better threads on here. I usually do not post on this side of the board. I think I am addicted now.