Defining a 'True Christian'?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
No, I’m not trying to tell anyone how they should view the Eucharist. I understand the difference in what the Catholic Church teaches on the Eucharist and what most Protestant churches teach on it. I don’t see the argument between transubstantiation and consubstantiation being major. One teaches that the accidents literally become the blood and body and one teaches that they contain the spirit of Christ, but do not physically become Christ. Even in most Protestant churches, at least for me since I was raised Lutheran, Communion is still a sacrament meaning it is necessary for salvation.

My point on Eucharist is that it doesn’t provide salvation in itself. Baptism is the same. Baptism does not provide salvation in itself. Baptism is an outward sign of an inward committment of the acceptance of Christ. We are called to do both.
[/quote]
Salvation comes from Jesus, which the substance of the Eucharist is Jesus. Baptism is not the same, baptism provides salvation and grace from God. 1 Peter 3:21, “Whereunto baptism…now saveth you also.” The power of baptism comes from God, however, baptism does save you. Baptism is not an outward sign of an inward commitment, it is not something we do for God, but which Jesus does for us.

[quote]
Now, I also realize that in the Catholic Church, just as when I was growing up in a Lutheran Church, there is catechism that one must go through before he or she can receive the Eucharist. The difference, at least from what I have experienced, is that most Protestant churches will Commune non members. The Lutheran Church’s view is that as long as one states they believe then they should take Communion no matter what church they belong to. However, one could possibly take Communion without a contrite heart. One could take Communion everyday but not truly believe in their heart. The Eucharist doesn’t save them it’s the acceptance of Christ AND the following of his commands.[/quote]

The difference is that if one takes the Eucharist, without a “contrite” heart, they commit sacrilege. There is grace that comes from the Eucharist, which is not placed on the person if they are not square with Jesus, which is an act of sacrilege. And, you’re correct, partially, salvation comes from faith in Christ and following his commands, which he commanded us to eat His flesh and to drink His blood.[/quote]

We are in agreeance on all points except the baptism. I believe the Eucharist is Christ. While a Catholic may believe physically, I believe spiritually yet we still agree Christ is present and has commanded us to take it. I also believe that anyone that takes it without first being right with Jesus has committed a sacrilege. My point there was just to say that one could possibly take the Eucharist and not be saved. It’s all dependent on the acceptance of Christ.

As for baptism, I to was raised with the verse that your baptism now saves you. However, the baptism itself does not provide salvation without being accompanied by your belief in Christ. Lutherans, Catholics, Presbetyrians (sp?), Episcopalians, etc. all take infant baptism. We also all accept the Nicene Creed which states one baptism for the remission of sins. Therefore, if one falls away from the faith and comes back there is no need for an additional baptism. If the person is baptized as an infant and refuses to believe as an adult, they are still not saved.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< You’re still my brother, even though you are a heretic, just like the dirty communist that have infiltrated the Catholic Church are our brothers, they are called the lost sons of God.[/quote]You really don’t see a problem with this do you. Hopefully I’ll have more time later. I saw you other post too. Very busy @ work.

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
I also believe that the Eucharist is very important. We are commanded to take it. The difference in what I was taught and what the Catholic Church believes is in semantics. As a Lutheran, I was taught that Christ was spiritually present in the accidents. In the Catholic Church, it is taught that they physically transform into Christ. What is imporant is why you take them. It’s something that Christ called us to do in remembrance of his sacrifice for our sins. Eucharist itself does not save us. Baptism itself does not save us. Acceptance of Christ along with receiving the sacraments are what provides salvation.

I may the view you and Chris take on the Eucharist wrong. [/quote]Now hold on a minute there Sparky. I am here to promise you that Luther saw a vastly greater difference between his view and the papacy’s than you appear to be reporting. I would say that a person who is elect in and accepted by Christ and has therefore undergone authentic regeneration WILL receive the sacraments. I do believe true power and grace are dispensed in baptism and communion and differ with many in my own church in that regard. A body or individual that discounts, avoids or refuses baptism or communion has displayed it’s rebellious and heretical foundation.
[/quote]

Sparky? Hahaha. Anyway, I know I do see certain things a bit differently than Luther. I was a baptized member of the Lutheran Church, but I am a baptized Christian before I am a Lutheran. Luther’s biggest disagreement over the Eucharist was that if it truly transformed into the body and blood of Chirst then what if he spilled it? Would he be wasting the blood of Christ? I believe that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist but in a spiritual not physical sense. What is the most important is why one takes the Eucharist. It is a type for Christ’s sacrifice for our sins. We are instructed to receive Communion and baptism. Therefore, I think they are both essential parts of a church. However, is one that truly believes in Christ but attends a church that does not regularly offer Communion damned? Is one that does not truly believe in Christ but takes Communion on a weekly basis saved? The Eucharist is a piece of the puzzle that must fall into place after our acceptance of Christ.[/quote]

One is only required to take the Eucharist on Easter.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
I also believe that the Eucharist is very important. We are commanded to take it. The difference in what I was taught and what the Catholic Church believes is in semantics. As a Lutheran, I was taught that Christ was spiritually present in the accidents. In the Catholic Church, it is taught that they physically transform into Christ. What is imporant is why you take them. It’s something that Christ called us to do in remembrance of his sacrifice for our sins. Eucharist itself does not save us. Baptism itself does not save us. Acceptance of Christ along with receiving the sacraments are what provides salvation.

I may the view you and Chris take on the Eucharist wrong. [/quote]Now hold on a minute there Sparky. I am here to promise you that Luther saw a vastly greater difference between his view and the papacy’s than you appear to be reporting. I would say that a person who is elect in and accepted by Christ and has therefore undergone authentic regeneration WILL receive the sacraments. I do believe true power and grace are dispensed in baptism and communion and differ with many in my own church in that regard. A body or individual that discounts, avoids or refuses baptism or communion has displayed it’s rebellious and heretical foundation.
[/quote]

Sparky? Hahaha. Anyway, I know I do see certain things a bit differently than Luther. I was a baptized member of the Lutheran Church, but I am a baptized Christian before I am a Lutheran. Luther’s biggest disagreement over the Eucharist was that if it truly transformed into the body and blood of Chirst then what if he spilled it? Would he be wasting the blood of Christ? I believe that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist but in a spiritual not physical sense. What is the most important is why one takes the Eucharist. It is a type for Christ’s sacrifice for our sins. We are instructed to receive Communion and baptism. Therefore, I think they are both essential parts of a church. However, is one that truly believes in Christ but attends a church that does not regularly offer Communion damned? Is one that does not truly believe in Christ but takes Communion on a weekly basis saved? The Eucharist is a piece of the puzzle that must fall into place after our acceptance of Christ.[/quote]

One is only required to take the Eucharist on Easter. [/quote]

Well, let’s just agree that we disagree about the Eucharist. I know you are Catholic, and, even though I don’t share every view of the Lutheran Church, many of my views are Lutheran.

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]McG78 wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
I would have never guessed you were Catholic ;)I agree on both points that both the Eucharist and the Mass are important. However, you can’t put too much emphasis on the tangibles. Christ instructed us to take Eucharist in remembrance of his sacrifice on the cross. The bread and wine are merely symbolic of the shedding of his blood and breaking of his body. I know from a Catholic point of view that’s not what Transubstantiation teaches. I would never remove Eucharist from a service as some churches seem to do, but I also realize it is a key to salvation not what causes the salvation itself. The Bible also warns not to partake in Communion if you do so with an unclean heart or you eat and drink judgment onto yourself. By eating the bread and drinking the wine, you don’t cleanse yourself from sin, but rather you do so as a symbol of your acceptance of Christ’s sacrifice to provide your salvation.
[/quote]

No symbolism for me. It is the true Body and Blood of Christ. While the “substance” has remained the same, the “accidents” of the Eucharist has changed. Just as when a person dies, their soul leaves their body changing the person’s “accidents” but the body remains a body.

The Hebrew version of the Bible is pretty clear. Jesus said that it was his Body and Blood in the literal sense. Later versions of the Bible, including the King James Version, have made it seem like Jesus was speaking symbolicly, but this interpretation does not make sense with what the Old Testament says, what the early church taught (it would have been easier to say it was a symbol because this would have meant less persecution), what the actual Hebrew text means.

In a related point, there is a book called something like the 100 miracles of the Eucharist. It details many miracles attributed to the Eucharist, from the healing of the sick to the Eucharist actually turning to flesh and bleeding when cut.

I don’t think any discussion like this is going to change the other person’s beliefs. And perhaps, it shouldn’t.[/quote]

It wasn’t my intentions to change anyone’s beliefs on what or how they view the Eucharist. The original wasn’t in Hebrew. Christ spoke Aramaic, but the New Testament was written in Greek. I have no problem with someone viewing the accidents as the true body and blood and not the symbolic body and blood. It’s a minor difference in doctrine that I don’t think changes your major doctrine. I do think there is a problem, however, if you’re viewing the Communion as providing salvation. An atheist could partake in Communion and still be an atheist. They haven’t changed their feeling or belief about Christ. The Communion, just like baptism, should be something that is done in conjecture with the acceptance of Christ as the Lord and savior. [/quote]

Actually, pretty major difference between symbol and acquiring the presence. During the last supper, also did not change physically, though save a very few any one would argue that Jesus was speaking symbolically in that case. He did not say “This is kinda like my body but with better abs” or “This symbolizes my body” He said ‘IS’…Of course if your Bill Clinton, that really depends on “…what your definition of ‘is’ is”.

Communion is not a guarantee of anything it is as the name says, being in communion with Christ. The ‘Host’ is simply his container, hence the name ‘Host’.
Yes, you must accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, the son of God, among other things to take communion.
Protestants those words (accept Jesus as…) formally as it’s own ritual in many cases. It’s simply a presupposition in the Apostolic traditions.

See here’s the problem, we have 7 sacraments, a perfectly biblical number. We add another with a formalized ritual of ‘accepting Jesus as you personal Lord and Savior’ you have then 8 which is not as biblical. So we’d have to kick one to the curb to keep the nice biblical number of 7…I guess we could expand to 12, but I don’t know what we should put to as the other 4…

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Indeed it is not minor and ties directly in with one’s view of the nature of the atonement. The RCC believes Christs sacrifice is eternal and while not repeated with each mass, so as to avoid the charge of crucifying the Savior afresh, it does teach that the eternally contemporaneous sacrifice is efficaciously accessed with each work of transubstantiation. Along these lines. It’s been a while for me. The council of Trent declared anathema upon any who would be so brazen a heretic as to deny this utterly foundational RCC doctrine. That was when an RCC anathema meant something and I could have stood head up and chin forward steadfastly condemned for having loudly proclaimed just such a denial.

I was a “heretic” then. Not a “separated brother”. I liked it better that way. Much less seductive and deceptive.[/quote]

‘Anathema’ as used in the Council of Trent still means ‘excommunication’.

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
I also believe that the Eucharist is very important. We are commanded to take it. The difference in what I was taught and what the Catholic Church believes is in semantics. As a Lutheran, I was taught that Christ was spiritually present in the accidents. In the Catholic Church, it is taught that they physically transform into Christ. What is imporant is why you take them. It’s something that Christ called us to do in remembrance of his sacrifice for our sins. Eucharist itself does not save us. Baptism itself does not save us. Acceptance of Christ along with receiving the sacraments are what provides salvation.

I may the view you and Chris take on the Eucharist wrong. [/quote]Now hold on a minute there Sparky. I am here to promise you that Luther saw a vastly greater difference between his view and the papacy’s than you appear to be reporting. I would say that a person who is elect in and accepted by Christ and has therefore undergone authentic regeneration WILL receive the sacraments. I do believe true power and grace are dispensed in baptism and communion and differ with many in my own church in that regard. A body or individual that discounts, avoids or refuses baptism or communion has displayed it’s rebellious and heretical foundation.
[/quote]

Sparky? Hahaha. Anyway, I know I do see certain things a bit differently than Luther. I was a baptized member of the Lutheran Church, but I am a baptized Christian before I am a Lutheran. Luther’s biggest disagreement over the Eucharist was that if it truly transformed into the body and blood of Chirst then what if he spilled it? Would he be wasting the blood of Christ? I believe that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist but in a spiritual not physical sense. What is the most important is why one takes the Eucharist. It is a type for Christ’s sacrifice for our sins. We are instructed to receive Communion and baptism. Therefore, I think they are both essential parts of a church. However, is one that truly believes in Christ but attends a church that does not regularly offer Communion damned? Is one that does not truly believe in Christ but takes Communion on a weekly basis saved? The Eucharist is a piece of the puzzle that must fall into place after our acceptance of Christ.[/quote]

“Luther’s biggest disagreement over the Eucharist was that if it truly transformed into the body and blood of Chirst then what if he spilled it?”

Being that Luther was clergy he should have known the answer to that question. The quick answer is this, that once the ‘host’ loses it’s properties it likewise loses the Presence. So if the Eucharistic drink is spilled, (which actually occurs fairly frequently) it must be diluted with pure water (distilled) until it is no longer wine like. Once this occurs it loses the Presence.

Whether a person is damned or not is between that person and God himself. The church and declare you in or out of communion with itself, not ultimately with God. The church’s job is to lead you to Christ, it is not the judge and jury for that job belongs to Christ alone.
The church can provide you tools, what you do with them is up to you.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]McG78 wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
I would have never guessed you were Catholic ;)I agree on both points that both the Eucharist and the Mass are important. However, you can’t put too much emphasis on the tangibles. Christ instructed us to take Eucharist in remembrance of his sacrifice on the cross. The bread and wine are merely symbolic of the shedding of his blood and breaking of his body. I know from a Catholic point of view that’s not what Transubstantiation teaches. I would never remove Eucharist from a service as some churches seem to do, but I also realize it is a key to salvation not what causes the salvation itself. The Bible also warns not to partake in Communion if you do so with an unclean heart or you eat and drink judgment onto yourself. By eating the bread and drinking the wine, you don’t cleanse yourself from sin, but rather you do so as a symbol of your acceptance of Christ’s sacrifice to provide your salvation.
[/quote]

No symbolism for me. It is the true Body and Blood of Christ. While the “substance” has remained the same, the “accidents” of the Eucharist has changed. Just as when a person dies, their soul leaves their body changing the person’s “accidents” but the body remains a body.

The Hebrew version of the Bible is pretty clear. Jesus said that it was his Body and Blood in the literal sense. Later versions of the Bible, including the King James Version, have made it seem like Jesus was speaking symbolicly, but this interpretation does not make sense with what the Old Testament says, what the early church taught (it would have been easier to say it was a symbol because this would have meant less persecution), what the actual Hebrew text means.

In a related point, there is a book called something like the 100 miracles of the Eucharist. It details many miracles attributed to the Eucharist, from the healing of the sick to the Eucharist actually turning to flesh and bleeding when cut.

I don’t think any discussion like this is going to change the other person’s beliefs. And perhaps, it shouldn’t.[/quote]

It wasn’t my intentions to change anyone’s beliefs on what or how they view the Eucharist. The original wasn’t in Hebrew. Christ spoke Aramaic, but the New Testament was written in Greek. I have no problem with someone viewing the accidents as the true body and blood and not the symbolic body and blood. It’s a minor difference in doctrine that I don’t think changes your major doctrine. I do think there is a problem, however, if you’re viewing the Communion as providing salvation. An atheist could partake in Communion and still be an atheist. They haven’t changed their feeling or belief about Christ. The Communion, just like baptism, should be something that is done in conjecture with the acceptance of Christ as the Lord and savior. [/quote]

Actually, pretty major difference between symbol and acquiring the presence. During the last supper, also did not change physically, though save a very few any one would argue that Jesus was speaking symbolically in that case. He did not say “This is kinda like my body but with better abs” or “This symbolizes my body” He said ‘IS’…Of course if your Bill Clinton, that really depends on “…what your definition of ‘is’ is”.

Communion is not a guarantee of anything it is as the name says, being in communion with Christ. The ‘Host’ is simply his container, hence the name ‘Host’.
Yes, you must accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, the son of God, among other things to take communion.
Protestants those words (accept Jesus as…) formally as it’s own ritual in many cases. It’s simply a presupposition in the Apostolic traditions.

See here’s the problem, we have 7 sacraments, a perfectly biblical number. We add another with a formalized ritual of ‘accepting Jesus as you personal Lord and Savior’ you have then 8 which is not as biblical. So we’d have to kick one to the curb to keep the nice biblical number of 7…I guess we could expand to 12, but I don’t know what we should put to as the other 4…[/quote]

I didn’t realize that I was in such a strong Catholic board. Well, I may not have made myself clear on what I viewed as symbolic. I don’t view the accidents of the Eucharist as symbolic. I do believe that the bread and wine takes on the Presence. Therefore I do believe it is the literal body and blood in a spiritual sense. The Eucharist is not a re-sacrificing of Christ. So in a way, it is a symbolic remembrance of his sacrifice. If it were, there would be no need to accept Christ. If the Eucharist itself was the sacrifice, Christ could have stopped at the Last Supper and not went to the cross.

Now that I have a little more time, I would also like to point out that the Bible never states there are 7 sacraments. Romans 10:13 says “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” It never mentions only those that take Communion, confession, marriage, baptism, etc. Jesus himself said “whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” (Mark 16:16). The essential part here is belief in Christ. Otherwise, Christ himself would have been a liar by telling the criminal on the cross that on that day he would be with him in Paradise. He should have said, “Only after you have taken Communion, been baptized, confessed your sins, and then worked them off for years in purgatory will you be with me in Paradise.”

[quote]BBriere wrote:
Now that I have a little more time, I would also like to point out that the Bible never states there are 7 sacraments. Romans 10:13 says “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” It never mentions only those that take Communion, confession, marriage, baptism, etc. Jesus himself said “whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” (Mark 16:16). The essential part here is belief in Christ. Otherwise, Christ himself would have been a liar by telling the criminal on the cross that on that day he would be with him in Paradise. He should have said, “Only after you have taken Communion, been baptized, confessed your sins, and then worked them off for years in purgatory will you be with me in Paradise.”
[/quote]

Where does it say exactly how to get married, or exactly who the author of Mark is in the Bible? Where does it exactly say a lot of things. Now prophesy will come from private interpretation, the Bible is difficult to understand, the Holy Ghost has to be present to fully understand it and not make a mistake.

The reason the good thief was saved was three fold, on the cross the Good Thief had FAITH in Jesus, was BAPTIZED, and received his TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT for his sins on the cross.

However, if the Good Thief had lived he would have continued to merit his salvation through works or as I call it doing God’s will. Because of our weakness, Jesus gave us six other sacraments in order to bestow grace upon us. We have the sacrament of confession, where Jesus gives you the grace of forgiveness and releases our trespasses. We have the sacrament of communion, which brings you into communion with God and the Church, His Body and gives us our daily bread. There is the sacrament of confirmation, which perfects our baptism and brings us the graces of the Holy Spirit that were granted to the Apostles on Pentecost Sunday. There is marriage, which allows two people to be the ministers of each other to help each other into heaven. Holy Orders, which allows those with authority help us without authority into Heaven as well as administer the other sacraments. Anointing of the sick, allows those that are sick to get better, and for those who are going to die to strengthen their souls and to have their mortal sins forgiven.

All these are Biblical, Jesus just doesn’t pull out his Catholic Catechism and list them off in order, he establishes them.

[quote]BBriere wrote:
Now that I have a little more time, I would also like to point out that the Bible never states there are 7 sacraments. Romans 10:13 says “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” It never mentions only those that take Communion, confession, marriage, baptism, etc. Jesus himself said “whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” (Mark 16:16). The essential part here is belief in Christ. Otherwise, Christ himself would have been a liar by telling the criminal on the cross that on that day he would be with him in Paradise. He should have said, “Only after you have taken Communion, been baptized, confessed your sins, and then worked them off for years in purgatory will you be with me in Paradise.”
[/quote]

Where does it say exactly how to get married, or exactly who the author of Mark is in the Bible? Where does it exactly say a lot of things. Now prophesy will come from private interpretation, the Bible is difficult to understand, the Holy Ghost has to be present to fully understand it and not make a mistake.

The reason the good thief was saved was three fold, on the cross the Good Thief had FAITH in Jesus, was BAPTIZED, and received his TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT for his sins on the cross.

However, if the Good Thief had lived he would have continued to merit his salvation through works or as I call it doing God’s will. Because of our weakness, Jesus gave us six other sacraments in order to bestow grace upon us. We have the sacrament of confession, where Jesus gives you the grace of forgiveness and releases our trespasses. We have the sacrament of communion, which brings you into communion with God and the Church, His Body and gives us our daily bread. There is the sacrament of confirmation, which perfects our baptism and brings us the graces of the Holy Spirit that were granted to the Apostles on Pentecost Sunday. There is marriage, which allows two people to be the ministers of each other to help each other into heaven. Holy Orders, which allows those with authority help us without authority into Heaven as well as administer the other sacraments. Anointing of the sick, allows those that are sick to get better, and for those who are going to die to strengthen their souls and to have their mortal sins forgiven.

All these are Biblical, Jesus just doesn’t pull out his Catholic Catechism and list them off in order, he establishes them.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Indeed it is not minor and ties directly in with one’s view of the nature of the atonement. The RCC believes Christs sacrifice is eternal and while not repeated with each mass, so as to avoid the charge of crucifying the Savior afresh, it does teach that the eternally contemporaneous sacrifice is efficaciously accessed with each work of transubstantiation. Along these lines. It’s been a while for me. The council of Trent declared anathema upon any who would be so brazen a heretic as to deny this utterly foundational RCC doctrine. That was when an RCC anathema meant something and I could have stood head up and chin forward steadfastly condemned for having loudly proclaimed just such a denial.

I was a “heretic” then. Not a “separated brother”. I liked it better that way. Much less seductive and deceptive.[/quote]‘Anathema’ as used in the Council of Trent still means ‘excommunication’. [/quote]Which at newadvent is alleged to mean this: [quote]“Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, [u]we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church;[/u] we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment.”[/quote]I dunno, I’m just trying to take the papacy at it’s word.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Indeed it is not minor and ties directly in with one’s view of the nature of the atonement. The RCC believes Christs sacrifice is eternal and while not repeated with each mass, so as to avoid the charge of crucifying the Savior afresh, it does teach that the eternally contemporaneous sacrifice is efficaciously accessed with each work of transubstantiation. Along these lines. It’s been a while for me. The council of Trent declared anathema upon any who would be so brazen a heretic as to deny this utterly foundational RCC doctrine. That was when an RCC anathema meant something and I could have stood head up and chin forward steadfastly condemned for having loudly proclaimed just such a denial.

I was a “heretic” then. Not a “separated brother”. I liked it better that way. Much less seductive and deceptive.[/quote]‘Anathema’ as used in the Council of Trent still means ‘excommunication’. [/quote]Which at newadvent is alleged to mean this: [quote]“Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, [u]we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church;[/u] we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment.”[/quote]I dunno, I’m just trying to take the papacy at it’s word.
[/quote]

pat, in so far as his statement here, is partially correct. Anathema is two fold, it declares infallible doctrine and is a Papal event of sorts to excommunicate a Catholic. However, we don’t have ceremonies anymore were we anathema people, we have done very little of that in our history.

Anyone that wants to understand plainly what Anathema is, read that article.

Here are some key quotes:

Over time, a distinction came to be made between excommunication and anathema. The precise nature of the distinction varied but eventually became fixed. By the time of Gregory IX (1370â??1378), the term anathema was used to describe a major excommunication that was performed with a solemn pontifical ceremony. This customarily involved the ringing of a bell, the closing of a book, and the snuffing out of candles, collectively signifying that the highest ecclesiastical court had spoken and would not reconsider the matter until the individual gave evidence of repentance.

Such solemnities have been rare in Church history. They remained on the books, however, as late as the 1917 Code of Canon Law, which provided that, “Excommunication . . . is called anathema especially when it is imposed with the solemnities that are described in the Roman Pontifical” (CIC [1917] 2257 §§ 1â??2).

Of special interest are Paulâ??s ecclesiastical uses of anathemaâ??Galatians 1:8â??9 and 1 Corinthians 16:22â??in which Paul says that if a person is guilty of certain faults then “let him be anathema.” Minimally, this directed the Christian community to hold the offender in a certain regard. This involved his exclusion from fellowship, as clearly must be done in the case of a person preaching a false gospel. Such exclusionâ??for a variety of offensesâ??is attested to elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., Matt 18:15â??18), and often spoken of as “handing [the offender] over to Satan” so that he might suffer without the Churchâ??s protection and thus be driven to repentance (1 Cor. 5; 2 Cor. 2:5â??11; Tit. 3:10).

Yet the penalty was used so seldom that it was removed from the 1983 Code of Canon Law.

Anathemas were simply a major excommunication performed with a special papal ceremony, and, like all excommunications, their intent was medicinal, not punitive.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Indeed it is not minor and ties directly in with one’s view of the nature of the atonement. The RCC believes Christs sacrifice is eternal and while not repeated with each mass, so as to avoid the charge of crucifying the Savior afresh, it does teach that the eternally contemporaneous sacrifice is efficaciously accessed with each work of transubstantiation. Along these lines. It’s been a while for me. The council of Trent declared anathema upon any who would be so brazen a heretic as to deny this utterly foundational RCC doctrine. That was when an RCC anathema meant something and I could have stood head up and chin forward steadfastly condemned for having loudly proclaimed just such a denial.

I was a “heretic” then. Not a “separated brother”. I liked it better that way. Much less seductive and deceptive.[/quote]‘Anathema’ as used in the Council of Trent still means ‘excommunication’. [/quote]Which at newadvent is alleged to mean this: [quote]“Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, [u]we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church;[/u] we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment.”[/quote]I dunno, I’m just trying to take the papacy at it’s word.
[/quote]

Yeah, stringing to unrelated documents together doesn’t mean shit. Who ever the above is about (N-- himself) received a proper formal, Major Excommunication. Anathema in this context means ‘to separate’ or being separated from Christ. See the problem is that ‘anathema’ has to real English translation. Being bilingual, I can understand how this can be. There are words in Czech that mean what it takes an entire phrase to deliniate, sort of, in English and can change depending on the context in which it is used.

[quote]BBriere wrote:
Now that I have a little more time, I would also like to point out that the Bible never states there are 7 sacraments. Romans 10:13 says “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” It never mentions only those that take Communion, confession, marriage, baptism, etc. Jesus himself said “whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” (Mark 16:16). The essential part here is belief in Christ. Otherwise, Christ himself would have been a liar by telling the criminal on the cross that on that day he would be with him in Paradise. He should have said, “Only after you have taken Communion, been baptized, confessed your sins, and then worked them off for years in purgatory will you be with me in Paradise.”
[/quote]

Receiving the sacraments is no guarantee of anything. They are Sacred Rites to bring you closer to Christ, again they are tools. I would recommend baptism for any Christian at the very least, though.

On a side note, I knew a preist, I don’t know if he is still alive who could and likely did received all 7 sacraments. He was married for a long time and his wife died and later he became a priest. It’s only interesting in the fact that Holy Orders and Matrimony are seldom paired in the same person. Of course we do actually have married priests (Anglican converts), contrary to popular belief, so there’s that too. But most people cannot get all 7.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Indeed it is not minor and ties directly in with one’s view of the nature of the atonement. The RCC believes Christs sacrifice is eternal and while not repeated with each mass, so as to avoid the charge of crucifying the Savior afresh, it does teach that the eternally contemporaneous sacrifice is efficaciously accessed with each work of transubstantiation. Along these lines. It’s been a while for me. The council of Trent declared anathema upon any who would be so brazen a heretic as to deny this utterly foundational RCC doctrine. That was when an RCC anathema meant something and I could have stood head up and chin forward steadfastly condemned for having loudly proclaimed just such a denial.

I was a “heretic” then. Not a “separated brother”. I liked it better that way. Much less seductive and deceptive.[/quote]‘Anathema’ as used in the Council of Trent still means ‘excommunication’. [/quote]Which at newadvent is alleged to mean this: [quote]“Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, [u]we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church;[/u] we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment.”[/quote]I dunno, I’m just trying to take the papacy at it’s word.
[/quote]

pat, in so far as his statement here, is partially correct. Anathema is two fold, it declares infallible doctrine and is a Papal event of sorts to excommunicate a Catholic. However, we don’t have ceremonies anymore were we anathema people, we have done very little of that in our history.

Anyone that wants to understand plainly what Anathema is, read that article.

Here are some key quotes:

Over time, a distinction came to be made between excommunication and anathema. The precise nature of the distinction varied but eventually became fixed. By the time of Gregory IX (1370â??1378), the term anathema was used to describe a major excommunication that was performed with a solemn pontifical ceremony. This customarily involved the ringing of a bell, the closing of a book, and the snuffing out of candles, collectively signifying that the highest ecclesiastical court had spoken and would not reconsider the matter until the individual gave evidence of repentance.

Such solemnities have been rare in Church history. They remained on the books, however, as late as the 1917 Code of Canon Law, which provided that, “Excommunication . . . is called anathema especially when it is imposed with the solemnities that are described in the Roman Pontifical” (CIC [1917] 2257 Ã?§Ã?§ 1â??2).

Of special interest are Paulâ??s ecclesiastical uses of anathemaâ??Galatians 1:8â??9 and 1 Corinthians 16:22â??in which Paul says that if a person is guilty of certain faults then “let him be anathema.” Minimally, this directed the Christian community to hold the offender in a certain regard. This involved his exclusion from fellowship, as clearly must be done in the case of a person preaching a false gospel. Such exclusionâ??for a variety of offensesâ??is attested to elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., Matt 18:15â??18), and often spoken of as “handing [the offender] over to Satan” so that he might suffer without the Churchâ??s protection and thus be driven to repentance (1 Cor. 5; 2 Cor. 2:5â??11; Tit. 3:10).

Yet the penalty was used so seldom that it was removed from the 1983 Code of Canon Law.

Anathemas were simply a major excommunication performed with a special papal ceremony, and, like all excommunications, their intent was medicinal, not punitive.[/quote]

Even after that article, ‘anathema’ is still a rather elusive word. We just don’t have a comperable on in English. My bottom line is to dispel the myth that we believe in curses, or cursing people.
The only people I know who are cursed and deservedly so is the Chicago Cubs.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Indeed it is not minor and ties directly in with one’s view of the nature of the atonement. The RCC believes Christs sacrifice is eternal and while not repeated with each mass, so as to avoid the charge of crucifying the Savior afresh, it does teach that the eternally contemporaneous sacrifice is efficaciously accessed with each work of transubstantiation. Along these lines. It’s been a while for me. The council of Trent declared anathema upon any who would be so brazen a heretic as to deny this utterly foundational RCC doctrine. That was when an RCC anathema meant something and I could have stood head up and chin forward steadfastly condemned for having loudly proclaimed just such a denial.

I was a “heretic” then. Not a “separated brother”. I liked it better that way. Much less seductive and deceptive.[/quote]‘Anathema’ as used in the Council of Trent still means ‘excommunication’. [/quote]Which at newadvent is alleged to mean this: [quote]“Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, [u]we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church;[/u] we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment.”[/quote]I dunno, I’m just trying to take the papacy at it’s word.
[/quote]

pat, in so far as his statement here, is partially correct. Anathema is two fold, it declares infallible doctrine and is a Papal event of sorts to excommunicate a Catholic. However, we don’t have ceremonies anymore were we anathema people, we have done very little of that in our history.

Anyone that wants to understand plainly what Anathema is, read that article.

Here are some key quotes:

Over time, a distinction came to be made between excommunication and anathema. The precise nature of the distinction varied but eventually became fixed. By the time of Gregory IX (1370�¢??1378), the term anathema was used to describe a major excommunication that was performed with a solemn pontifical ceremony. This customarily involved the ringing of a bell, the closing of a book, and the snuffing out of candles, collectively signifying that the highest ecclesiastical court had spoken and would not reconsider the matter until the individual gave evidence of repentance.

Such solemnities have been rare in Church history. They remained on the books, however, as late as the 1917 Code of Canon Law, which provided that, “Excommunication . . . is called anathema especially when it is imposed with the solemnities that are described in the Roman Pontifical” (CIC [1917] 2257 Ã??Ã?§Ã??Ã?§ 1Ã?¢??2).

Of special interest are PaulÃ?¢??s ecclesiastical uses of anathemaÃ?¢??Galatians 1:8Ã?¢??9 and 1 Corinthians 16:22Ã?¢??in which Paul says that if a person is guilty of certain faults then “let him be anathema.” Minimally, this directed the Christian community to hold the offender in a certain regard. This involved his exclusion from fellowship, as clearly must be done in the case of a person preaching a false gospel. Such exclusionÃ?¢??for a variety of offensesÃ?¢??is attested to elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., Matt 18:15Ã?¢??18), and often spoken of as “handing [the offender] over to Satan” so that he might suffer without the ChurchÃ?¢??s protection and thus be driven to repentance (1 Cor. 5; 2 Cor. 2:5Ã?¢??11; Tit. 3:10).

Yet the penalty was used so seldom that it was removed from the 1983 Code of Canon Law.

Anathemas were simply a major excommunication performed with a special papal ceremony, and, like all excommunications, their intent was medicinal, not punitive.[/quote]

Even after that article, ‘anathema’ is still a rather elusive word. We just don’t have a comperable on in English. My bottom line is to dispel the myth that we believe in curses, or cursing people.
The only people I know who are cursed and deservedly so is the Chicago Cubs.[/quote]

And, hyenas…hyenas are cursed. Funny story…my dog’s name is Anathema.

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Even after that article, ‘anathema’ is still a rather elusive word. We just don’t have a comperable on in English. My bottom line is to dispel the myth that we believe in curses, or cursing people. >>>[/quote]No… it is not elusive. The 16th century had no confusion about the anathemas of Trent. A person adhering to the doctrines so associated were by that adherence anathematized, “excommunicated and anathematized and judged condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church;”. They may not have had that precise written language then, but everybody knew what it meant. “If ANYONE shall say___________ let him be anathema”. Pretty simple

I respect that. Did you hear me? I am not complaining. I actually respect that RCC much more than this twinkle toed “OOOOHHHHH we don’t wanna curse anybody” gutless social club we have now. If I could print some of your posts here and take them back in time to the great ecumenical council of Trent and read them before that body of RCC officials then, YOU would be probably be pronounced anathema. Though maybe not directly by the council’s decrees themselves. [quote]pat wrote: <<< Yeah, stringing to unrelated documents together doesn’t mean shit.>>>[/quote]Agreed. Could I prevail upon you to demonstrate even one instance of my having done so… ever… in going on 5 years here? That’s not nice Pat. I am far from perfect, but you are the only person who has ever accused me of deliberate cheap deception like this.

Okay, Tirib here you go, this comes from a ex-Calvinist:

[quote]Brother Chris quoted: from a ex-Calvinist:
A really long diatribe further demonstrating the poisonous influence of the RCC on the mind of men[/quote]Thank you very much for letting this apostate make several of my points for me in living color and far better than I ever could have myself. Keep em comin. Geeez. The meandering, ever evolving mind of fallen men masquerading as the “one true most holy apostolic church”. Please fellow believers here wondering why poor ol Trib is so hard on the RCC. Read this, I beg of thee. If this piece does not demonstrate to you the synthetic eye wateringly odorous sophistry at it’s absolute pinnacle that IS the Roman Catholic Church, then what would ever do it completely escapes me. (Yes, I read every last syllable).

See, this stuff is normal for Catholics. Try to understand that as you squint your eyes through your growing headache in an attempt to digest it. This IS Christianity to them.