Defining a 'True Christian'?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]McG78 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

My point exactly - I think we should embrace the similarities and disregard the differences between all Christian brothers and sisters. [/quote]

The problem that Catholics have with this is that most Protestant religions reject many of the tenets that the Church holds sacried (e.g., the sanctity of Mary and that Mary remained a virgin her whole life). Additionally, Catholics belief in apostolic tradition. Finally, the Catholic Church stresses that while Jesus died for our sins individually, He also died for the sins of the world, Christian and non-Christian alike. Thus, many non-Christians will make it to Heaven while many “believers” will not (i.e., being Christian is more than just words). Many Protestants won’t accept this.[/quote]

But that does not effect me, or the fact that they too have accepted Christ as the savior. That’s just one more difference that bears little on the primary similarities that we share.

42

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
When I was in jail, Jesus came to me in a dream/vision. It was really vivid. Real or not it affected me for the better.[/quote]

I’d like to hear more about this Matty. [/quote]

I will tell about the dream, if there are other details that you would like to know, just ask.

So I’m sleeping, and you just start dreaming, you end up where ever it is your mind goes.
I’m in a stone chapel, it’s rectangular with a trianglular prism top. I will add a basic picture of what it looked like.
Ok, so I’m in this chapel, and I’m sitting on the floor cross-legged, and there’s a bunch of other people in the room, I know they’re there but I don’t really notice their faces. Jesus is talking to us, and I don’t really know what he is saying while he is speaking, but I’m just filled with this really warm feeling of contentment, like I’m just in the zone, or when you’re really cozy when you go to bed.
Anyway, while Jesus is speaking to us, one of the walls of the (stone) building cracks and falls over, like a shard breaks off the wall, it’s not broken right through like a hole, but something is wrong.
So there’s the piece of wall laying before me on the ground, and it catches fire. I’m like ‘Oh no!’, I don’t want this moment with Jesus being ruined. So I start heaving the flaming pieces of wall out the window, but for every flaming piece that I threw out, another piece would catch fire, so I kept going and going. While I’m doing this Jesus comes up to me and says ‘Don’t worry everything will be ok’, so I stop what I’m doing, I figure, 'You’re Jesus so you know what you’re talking about.
So the chapel burns down, which to me is weird b/c it was made of stone. Try lighting a rock on fire ya know?
So the people from the chapel and me, we’re all walking in this bushy desert-like wilderness, and we come to a cliff face with a dark triangular opening or crack as an entrance. On the left-hand side of this entrance, there is an upside-down pentagram. I look at that and I think to myself ‘I don’t need to go in to know what’s in there’. Some people chose to venture inside, but I decided it best not to. So I leave there.
So I’m walking in the wilderness, and I see the chapel that had previously burned down. I walk up to it, and Jesus is standing there. He says to me ‘I told you everything would be alright’.
And that was the end of my dream.[/quote]

Thanks for sharing that dream with me (us). Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your savior Matty?

43

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:

die with last rites.
[/quote]

What are the last rites? I was given them as I was expected to die very quickly after a severe injury, but obviously didn’t.

Given the state I was in, I missed the ceremony.

44

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Thanks for sharing that dream with me (us). Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your savior Matty?[/quote]

Yeah. I don’t go to church or pray at all. To me it’s about how you act, and there are many roads to virtue.

45

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
2. Read and know the Bible
[/quote]

By this rule, wouldnt all christians have to be fluent in Hebrew? Also culturally fluent as to really understand what the writings meant?[/quote]

You don’t have to know how to speak, read, and write Hebrew, but yes, you should have knowledge of what things in the Bible actually meant when written. Christians are only instructed to read and know one book. It shoudn’t be that hard.[/quote]

But to actually know that you’d have to be fluent in the language and its contextual use. [/quote]

Well, only half the Bible was written in Hebrew. The rest was written in Greek. We have numerous classical books that weren’t written in English, but we can read them in English and if necessary we have numerous resources to use to find out what it actually said. For the Bible, we have pastors, study Bibles, outside resources written by Biblical language scholars, apologists, etc. So I don’t have to be able to carry on a conversation in Hebrew to look up what a passage’s literal wording or context was.

46

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
2. Read and know the Bible
[/quote]

By this rule, wouldnt all christians have to be fluent in Hebrew? Also culturally fluent as to really understand what the writings meant?[/quote]

You don’t have to know how to speak, read, and write Hebrew, but yes, you should have knowledge of what things in the Bible actually meant when written. Christians are only instructed to read and know one book. It shoudn’t be that hard.[/quote]

But to actually know that you’d have to be fluent in the language and its contextual use. [/quote]

Well, only half the Bible was written in Hebrew. The rest was written in Greek. We have numerous classical books that weren’t written in English, but we can read them in English and if necessary we have numerous resources to use to find out what it actually said. For the Bible, we have pastors, study Bibles, outside resources written by Biblical language scholars, apologists, etc. So I don’t have to be able to carry on a conversation in Hebrew to look up what a passage’s literal wording or context was.[/quote]

But anythjing that isn’t the original copy is subject to the interpretation of someone else. So you get what that particular pastor/scholar/apologist interpreted the passage to mean.

Without being able to reference the material themselves, how could an illiterate group of people contest any claims a pastor or scholar wanted to make about the bible? What’s to stop anyone from just interjecting anything they want for their own personal reasons?

47

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Thanks for sharing that dream with me (us). Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your savior Matty?[/quote]

Yeah. I don’t go to church or pray at all. To me it’s about how you act, and there are many roads to virtue.[/quote]

Finding your own path is certainly the way to go. But not unlike your body if you fail to “train” you will begin to lose what you have. By joining a church you will be able to draw even closer to Jesus Christ and hear and learn God’s word. You are also able to help others who are looking for assistance usually spiritually. So, when you find the right church it’s all good. Consider it my friend.

As to your dream, I’ve been thinking about that and as I read it I felt that it was of a prophetic nature. Here’s my quick read if you don’t mind.

The building that you were in represented your old nature. It was being destroyed even though you thought that it (stone) could never be destroyed. When you were walking with the group of faceless people they represented the masses who are lost. When you refused to go into that one area where everyone was going you were refusing to follow the crowd. And I believe that the symbol that you saw represented even more than the crowd but I’ll reserve judgement on that until you give me a clearer explanation. When you returned to where the building was and saw Jesus once again that meant that while you were tempted to follow the crowd you showed restraint and returned to the master.

Well there you have it. Tell me what you think Matty.

48

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
2. Read and know the Bible
[/quote]

By this rule, wouldnt all christians have to be fluent in Hebrew? Also culturally fluent as to really understand what the writings meant?[/quote]

You don’t have to know how to speak, read, and write Hebrew, but yes, you should have knowledge of what things in the Bible actually meant when written. Christians are only instructed to read and know one book. It shoudn’t be that hard.[/quote]

But to actually know that you’d have to be fluent in the language and its contextual use. [/quote]

Well, only half the Bible was written in Hebrew. The rest was written in Greek. We have numerous classical books that weren’t written in English, but we can read them in English and if necessary we have numerous resources to use to find out what it actually said. For the Bible, we have pastors, study Bibles, outside resources written by Biblical language scholars, apologists, etc. So I don’t have to be able to carry on a conversation in Hebrew to look up what a passage’s literal wording or context was.[/quote]

But anythjing that isn’t the original copy is subject to the interpretation of someone else. So you get what that particular pastor/scholar/apologist interpreted the passage to mean.

Without being able to reference the material themselves, how could an illiterate group of people contest any claims a pastor or scholar wanted to make about the bible? What’s to stop anyone from just interjecting anything they want for their own personal reasons?[/quote]

The Bible is more accurate than any of the ancient writings by authors such as Plato, Socrates etc. There is an interesting site which speaks directly to the accuracy of the scriptures. In addition to this the Dead Sea scrolls have verified every word of the OT. It’s authentic, no question.

49

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
2. Read and know the Bible
[/quote]

By this rule, wouldnt all christians have to be fluent in Hebrew? Also culturally fluent as to really understand what the writings meant?[/quote]

You don’t have to know how to speak, read, and write Hebrew, but yes, you should have knowledge of what things in the Bible actually meant when written. Christians are only instructed to read and know one book. It shoudn’t be that hard.[/quote]

But to actually know that you’d have to be fluent in the language and its contextual use. [/quote]

Well, only half the Bible was written in Hebrew. The rest was written in Greek. We have numerous classical books that weren’t written in English, but we can read them in English and if necessary we have numerous resources to use to find out what it actually said. For the Bible, we have pastors, study Bibles, outside resources written by Biblical language scholars, apologists, etc. So I don’t have to be able to carry on a conversation in Hebrew to look up what a passage’s literal wording or context was.[/quote]

But anythjing that isn’t the original copy is subject to the interpretation of someone else. So you get what that particular pastor/scholar/apologist interpreted the passage to mean.

Without being able to reference the material themselves, how could an illiterate group of people contest any claims a pastor or scholar wanted to make about the bible? What’s to stop anyone from just interjecting anything they want for their own personal reasons?[/quote]

They do. It’s happened since the dawn of Christianity. The Arians, the Gnostics, the monophysitists, etc. all interepreted the Bible differently and actually added to the Bible for their own cause in several cases. They were all eliminated by the true believers that fought to their death to keep Christianity true. There are still plenty of believers that do this. That’s why it should be up to every Christian to know the Bible, know what it says, compare it to the rest of the Bible. Compare it to central Christian beliefs.

There are still all sorts of interpretations amongst Biblical scholars that differ: the age of baptism, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the rapture, the meaning of Revelation, etc. These things really don’t matter. The Central theme is Christ crucified.

As for all these ideas about how the Bible has been misinterpreted/reinterpreted by those in power, see the Dead Sea Scrolls. At nearly 2000 years old, they were virtually identical to what we have today. There were some changes in language which made no change in meaning of the text. So the Biblical critics that want a history rife with mistakes, errors, ommissions, etc. have to come up with a new attack.

You believe that stars are millions of light years away right? How do you know? Have you ever measured them?

50

[quote]ZEB wrote:
In addition to this the Dead Sea scrolls have verified every word of the OT. It’s authentic, no question.
[/quote]

Are you serious? Where’s Noah’s ark? Where is the tree of life?

51

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Finding your own path is certainly the way to go. But not unlike your body if you fail to “train” you will begin to lose what you have. By joining a church you will be able to draw even closer to Jesus Christ and hear and learn God’s word. You are also able to help others who are looking for assistance usually spiritually. So, when you find the right church it’s all good. Consider it my friend.

As to your dream, I’ve been thinking about that and as I read it I felt that it was of a prophetic nature. Here’s my quick read if you don’t mind.

The building that you were in represented your old nature. It was being destroyed even though you thought that it (stone) could never be destroyed. When you were walking with the group of faceless people they represented the masses who are lost. When you refused to go into that one area where everyone was going you were refusing to follow the crowd. And I believe that the symbol that you saw represented even more than the crowd but I’ll reserve judgement on that until you give me a clearer explanation. When you returned to where the building was and saw Jesus once again that meant that while you were tempted to follow the crowd you showed restraint and returned to the master.

Well there you have it. Tell me what you think Matty.[/quote]

That’s a fine interpretation ZEB, thank you for that. We have about the same interpretations for it. I look at the upside-down pentagram as the bad things that I had brought into my life, and that I had finally been able to recognize them for the things that they were.

Before, I had no sense of who I was, or any self-worth. Very low self esteem, my life had become so fucked up that I couldn’t look at myself in the mirror before I turned myself in.

While I was in I completed a bible study course too. For completing it I got a bible with my name embossed(?) on the cover in gold, which was a nice extra incentive to work towards.
The chaplain was RC. He explained to me a bit about the workings of the RCC. The hierarchy of it. Very nice man, Polish born.

52

[quote]doogie wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
In addition to this the Dead Sea scrolls have verified every word of the OT. It’s authentic, no question.
[/quote]

Are you serious? Where’s Noah’s ark? Where is the tree of life?[/quote]

What I said was that the modern day Bible in all of its variations is accurate, and it is. That some ancient artifact has not yet been found, or may never be found, does not disprove that it was once in existence. And by the way many things have been found that were discussed in the Bible. Don’t make me start posting the links :slight_smile: But that is a separate topic.

53

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
2. Read and know the Bible
[/quote]

By this rule, wouldnt all christians have to be fluent in Hebrew? Also culturally fluent as to really understand what the writings meant?[/quote]

You don’t have to know how to speak, read, and write Hebrew, but yes, you should have knowledge of what things in the Bible actually meant when written. Christians are only instructed to read and know one book. It shoudn’t be that hard.[/quote]

But to actually know that you’d have to be fluent in the language and its contextual use. [/quote]

Well, only half the Bible was written in Hebrew. The rest was written in Greek. We have numerous classical books that weren’t written in English, but we can read them in English and if necessary we have numerous resources to use to find out what it actually said. For the Bible, we have pastors, study Bibles, outside resources written by Biblical language scholars, apologists, etc. So I don’t have to be able to carry on a conversation in Hebrew to look up what a passage’s literal wording or context was.[/quote]

But anythjing that isn’t the original copy is subject to the interpretation of someone else. So you get what that particular pastor/scholar/apologist interpreted the passage to mean.

Without being able to reference the material themselves, how could an illiterate group of people contest any claims a pastor or scholar wanted to make about the bible? What’s to stop anyone from just interjecting anything they want for their own personal reasons?[/quote]

The Bible is more accurate than any of the ancient writings by authors such as Plato, Socrates etc. There is an interesting site which speaks directly to the accuracy of the scriptures. In addition to this the Dead Sea scrolls have verified every word of the OT. It’s authentic, no question.
[/quote]

Way to miss my point dude.

54

[quote]BBriere wrote:
They do. It’s happened since the dawn of Christianity. The Arians, the Gnostics, the monophysitists, etc. all interepreted the Bible differently and actually added to the Bible for their own cause in several cases. They were all eliminated by the true believers that fought to their death to keep Christianity true. There are still plenty of believers that do this. That’s why it should be up to every Christian to know the Bible, know what it says, compare it to the rest of the Bible. Compare it to central Christian beliefs.

There are still all sorts of interpretations amongst Biblical scholars that differ: the age of baptism, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the rapture, the meaning of Revelation, etc. These things really don’t matter. The Central theme is Christ crucified.

As for all these ideas about how the Bible has been misinterpreted/reinterpreted by those in power, see the Dead Sea Scrolls. At nearly 2000 years old, they were virtually identical to what we have today. There were some changes in language which made no change in meaning of the text. So the Biblical critics that want a history rife with mistakes, errors, ommissions, etc. have to come up with a new attack.

You believe that stars are millions of light years away right? How do you know? Have you ever measured them?[/quote]

Actually I was just reading about the DSS and there seems to be quite a lot of difference:

“Prophecies by Ezekiel, Jeremiah and Daniel not found in the Bible are written in the Scrolls”.

“In the Scrolls are found never before seen psalms attributed to King David and Joshua.”

"The scrolls contain previously unknown stories about biblical figures such as Enoch, Abraham, and Noah. The story of Abraham includes an explanation why God asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son Isaac. "

It’s really not fair to ignore the multitude of differences between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Bible, pick out only the parts that match, and call them “virtually identical”. Different psalms, prophecies, and stories hardly amount to “virtually identical”.

Further, how do you know that the “true believers” who “eliminated” the others actually had it right?

But back to my main point: what’s to stop me from going to a group of illiterate christians, proving to them I can read, and telling them Jesus shaved his legs? How would they contest this or reference it?

55

Even the “modern” English translations of the Bible differ. For instance, compare the King James Version of the Bible with the New American Standard regarding transubstantion.

56

[quote]BBriere wrote:

You believe that stars are millions of light years away right? How do you know? Have you ever measured them?[/quote]

Yup. I believe in a lot of stuff I dont “know” and havent verified with my own two eyes.

But none of the stuff I believe goes against all the other things I see all the time. I dont believe anyone, anywhere, ever, has been able to levitate, because I see the effect of gravity on everyone all the time, without exception. Likewise I dont believe in other mythological claims, be they from christianity, greeks, romans, or anywhere else. I dont believe Buddha got up as soon as he was born and lotus petals blossomed in his footsteps - to believe this would go against everything I’ve ever seen regarding infants and plants.

Also, I dont have any logical reason to question those who say stars are millions of light-years away. I dont see how they could be trying to advance an agenda with that. However, when a group of people tell me things, like an omnipotent being controls the universe and only through them can I be saved from eternal torment when I die - oh, yeah, and I should give them money, I have good and clear reasons to question their motives.

57

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:
2. Read and know the Bible
[/quote]

By this rule, wouldnt all christians have to be fluent in Hebrew? Also culturally fluent as to really understand what the writings meant?[/quote]

You don’t have to know how to speak, read, and write Hebrew, but yes, you should have knowledge of what things in the Bible actually meant when written. Christians are only instructed to read and know one book. It shoudn’t be that hard.[/quote]

But to actually know that you’d have to be fluent in the language and its contextual use. [/quote]

Well, only half the Bible was written in Hebrew. The rest was written in Greek. We have numerous classical books that weren’t written in English, but we can read them in English and if necessary we have numerous resources to use to find out what it actually said. For the Bible, we have pastors, study Bibles, outside resources written by Biblical language scholars, apologists, etc. So I don’t have to be able to carry on a conversation in Hebrew to look up what a passage’s literal wording or context was.[/quote]

Just point out, more than half I’d say 3/4 of the Bible is in Hebrew.

58

[quote]doogie wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
In addition to this the Dead Sea scrolls have verified every word of the OT. It’s authentic, no question.
[/quote]

Are you serious? Where’s Noah’s ark? Where is the tree of life?[/quote]

You’re taking ZEB’s words wrong. Calm down there youngster.

59

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:

You believe that stars are millions of light years away right? How do you know? Have you ever measured them?[/quote]

Yup. I believe in a lot of stuff I dont “know” and havent verified with my own two eyes.

But none of the stuff I believe goes against all the other things I see all the time. I dont believe anyone, anywhere, ever, has been able to levitate, because I see the effect of gravity on everyone all the time, without exception. Likewise I dont believe in other mythological claims, be they from christianity, greeks, romans, or anywhere else. I dont believe Buddha got up as soon as he was born and lotus petals blossomed in his footsteps - to believe this would go against everything I’ve ever seen regarding infants and plants.

Also, I dont have any logical reason to question those who say stars are millions of light-years away. I dont see how they could be trying to advance an agenda with that. However, when a group of people tell me things, like an omnipotent being controls the universe and only through them can I be saved from eternal torment when I die - oh, yeah, and I should give them money, I have good and clear reasons to question their motives. [/quote]

Well, first, your website makes no clear mention as to whether the extra prophecies were found in the Canon of the Bible. Admittedly, there were around 9 previously unknown Psalms that were found. None of which change the meanings of the Book of Psalms. The extra Biblical stories of people from the Bible are found in a paraphrasing of the Book of Genesis. Since around 60% of the Dead Sea Scrolls are extra Biblical, many things have been found that don’t coincide with the Bible. The scroll it comes from is not considered the Book of Genesis, just a collection of stories regarding Genesis, that jumps from one subject to the next.

Second, our discussion is over since you are just pushing the same rehashed idea that Christianity is just some invention by money/power hungry leaders trying to pull the wool over someone’s eyes. You may believe that Judeo-Christian beliefs are really some millenia old conspiracy theory if you want. I’m not arguing the validity of Christianity again. Good day and God bless you.

60

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:

You believe that stars are millions of light years away right? How do you know? Have you ever measured them?[/quote]

Yup. I believe in a lot of stuff I dont “know” and havent verified with my own two eyes.

But none of the stuff I believe goes against all the other things I see all the time. I dont believe anyone, anywhere, ever, has been able to levitate, because I see the effect of gravity on everyone all the time, without exception. Likewise I dont believe in other mythological claims, be they from christianity, greeks, romans, or anywhere else. I dont believe Buddha got up as soon as he was born and lotus petals blossomed in his footsteps - to believe this would go against everything I’ve ever seen regarding infants and plants.

Also, I dont have any logical reason to question those who say stars are millions of light-years away. I dont see how they could be trying to advance an agenda with that. However, when a group of people tell me things, like an omnipotent being controls the universe and only through them can I be saved from eternal torment when I die - oh, yeah, and I should give them money, I have good and clear reasons to question their motives. [/quote]

Well, first, your website makes no clear mention as to whether the extra prophecies were found in the Canon of the Bible. Admittedly, there were around 9 previously unknown Psalms that were found. None of which change the meanings of the Book of Psalms. The extra Biblical stories of people from the Bible are found in a paraphrasing of the Book of Genesis. Since around 60% of the Dead Sea Scrolls are extra Biblical, many things have been found that don’t coincide with the Bible. The scroll it comes from is not considered the Book of Genesis, just a collection of stories regarding Genesis, that jumps from one subject to the next.

Second, our discussion is over since you are just pushing the same rehashed idea that Christianity is just some invention by money/power hungry leaders trying to pull the wool over someone’s eyes. You may believe that Judeo-Christian beliefs are really some millenia old conspiracy theory if you want. I’m not arguing the validity of Christianity again. Good day and God bless you.[/quote]

However, it does prove the Seven books in the OT that Catholics hold as true are actually part of the OT.