Defeating the System With Democracy

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
orion wrote:

Free markets- Democracy= all things good.

As to your assumptions that me or anyone else would buy crap products were it not for the government, well I am glad that you can put your need for a master in coherent sentences.

Utopian. [/quote]

Yes, because that would require a platform where people could rate their experiences with companies.

Something easily accessible, you could even compare prices and stuff.

Na, something like that is completely Utopian.

Maybe, someday, when all these Utopian technologies happen to merge we could even have a company, we could call it “Mississipi” or “Nile” or something ridiculous like that where people who have bought a product state if they like it and why.

Alas, until these golden times we need governments to take care of us.

But let us put that to the test.

Let us say I would want to know about a Samsung TV:

Or callgirls in Norway:

http://www.captain69.co.uk/

Reataurants in Uruguay:

http://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/South_America/Uruguay/Restaurants-Uruguay-BR-1.html

Flower shops in Russia:

http://www.givemeareview.com/flower-delivery/reviews.html

But I guess you guys are right. All that research was taxing, all 5 minutes of it, better to have someone else do it for me at twice the cost and regulate it heavily.

[quote]orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Democracy = Evil Free market = all things good. I would have loved to see you pitch this right after 2nd world war.

I think the free market is a joke, with out regulations you would have people dying of food poisoning, you would have people buying olive oil but getting canola oil instead.

You would have houses that fall down cars that won�??�?�¢??t run ,

You would have environmental disasters and none to clean them up

You would have thieves running amok the likes of stock brokers and bankers

No business will take care of any problem that is not in there interest. You would have businesses that have monopolies gouging the American public.

I can�??�?�¢??t believe that the market has all these people trained to do their bidding. I do not think Government can do all things either there has to be a combination of the 2.

Our founding fathers were not the free market idiots of today, they were about personal freedom.

No.

Free markets- Democracy= all things good.

As to your assumptions that me or anyone else would buy crap products were it not for the government, well I am glad that you can put your need for a master in coherent sentences.

Do you have construction experience? Or have you built many automobiles, What about your legal experience ?

What about my not dealing with shitty companies experience?

More than once that is?

[/quote]

What is to stop you from not dealing with shitty companies now ?

[quote]orion wrote:
But let us put that to the test.

Let us say I would want to know about a Samsung TV:

Or callgirls in Norway:

http://www.captain69.co.uk/

Reataurants in Uruguay:

Flower shops in Russia:

http://www.givemeareview.com/flower-delivery/reviews.html

But I guess you guys are right. All that research was taxing, all 5 minutes of it, better to have someone else do it for me at twice the cost and regulate it heavily.

[/quote]

Tell me about houses in Phoenix

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Democracy = Evil Free market = all things good. I would have loved to see you pitch this right after 2nd world war.

I think the free market is a joke, with out regulations you would have people dying of food poisoning, you would have people buying olive oil but getting canola oil instead.

You would have houses that fall down cars that won�??�??�?�¢??t run ,

You would have environmental disasters and none to clean them up

You would have thieves running amok the likes of stock brokers and bankers

No business will take care of any problem that is not in there interest. You would have businesses that have monopolies gouging the American public.

I can�??�??�?�¢??t believe that the market has all these people trained to do their bidding. I do not think Government can do all things either there has to be a combination of the 2.

Our founding fathers were not the free market idiots of today, they were about personal freedom.

No.

Free markets- Democracy= all things good.

As to your assumptions that me or anyone else would buy crap products were it not for the government, well I am glad that you can put your need for a master in coherent sentences.

Do you have construction experience? Or have you built many automobiles, What about your legal experience ?

What about my not dealing with shitty companies experience?

More than once that is?

What is to stop you from not dealing with shitty companies now ?

[/quote]

That is exactly my point.

Why would I need the government if I can walk away at any time and complain to all my friends about their POS service?

You made some points about externalities that I believe have some merit, but noone needs to protect us from bad goods or services. The free market kills them more efficiently than any government agency ever could.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
But let us put that to the test.

Let us say I would want to know about a Samsung TV:

Or callgirls in Norway:

http://www.captain69.co.uk/

Reataurants in Uruguay:

http://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/South_America/Uruguay/Restaurants-Uruguay-BR-1.html

Flower shops in Russia:

http://www.givemeareview.com/flower-delivery/reviews.html

But I guess you guys are right. All that research was taxing, all 5 minutes of it, better to have someone else do it for me at twice the cost and regulate it heavily.

Tell me about houses in Phoenix[/quote]

I do not need to.

If I wanted to know I would PM you and ask if I could hire you to turn the house upside down I intended to buy, have repaired, whatever.

I would most definitely not contact the Phoenix board of unnecessary bureaucrats to tell me.

[quote]orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
But let us put that to the test.

Let us say I would want to know about a Samsung TV:

Or callgirls in Norway:

http://www.captain69.co.uk/

Reataurants in Uruguay:

http://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/South_America/Uruguay/Restaurants-Uruguay-BR-1.html

Flower shops in Russia:

http://www.givemeareview.com/flower-delivery/reviews.html

But I guess you guys are right. All that research was taxing, all 5 minutes of it, better to have someone else do it for me at twice the cost and regulate it heavily.

Tell me about houses in Phoenix

I do not need to.

If I wanted to know I would PM you and ask if I could hire you to turn the house upside down I intended to buy, have repaired, whatever.

I would most definitely not contact the Phoenix board of unnecessary bureaucrats to tell me.

[/quote]

Good answer:)

Have the pro governemnt people given up? or is this just a lull in the action? I want as small a gavernment as possible, But I would rather have no government than the huge monstrosity we have right now.

Problem with the one we have now is that the size and power is not even being used to its full potential yet. I mean it’s like a sleeping bear in a cave with us, sure right now the bear only smells a little, but he keeps us warm with his bodyheat. I am really not looking foward to if or when this bear wakes up though.

V

[quote]orion wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
orion wrote:

Free markets- Democracy= all things good.

As to your assumptions that me or anyone else would buy crap products were it not for the government, well I am glad that you can put your need for a master in coherent sentences.

Utopian.

Yes, because that would require a platform where people could rate their experiences with companies.

Something easily accessible, you could even compare prices and stuff.

Na, something like that is completely Utopian.

Maybe, someday, when all these Utopian technologies happen to merge we could even have a company, we could call it “Mississipi” or “Nile” or something ridiculous like that where people who have bought a product state if they like it and why.

Alas, until these golden times we need governments to take care of us.

[/quote]

How many degrees do you have?

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
orion wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
orion wrote:

Free markets- Democracy= all things good.

As to your assumptions that me or anyone else would buy crap products were it not for the government, well I am glad that you can put your need for a master in coherent sentences.

Utopian.

Yes, because that would require a platform where people could rate their experiences with companies.

Something easily accessible, you could even compare prices and stuff.

Na, something like that is completely Utopian.

Maybe, someday, when all these Utopian technologies happen to merge we could even have a company, we could call it “Mississipi” or “Nile” or something ridiculous like that where people who have bought a product state if they like it and why.

Alas, until these golden times we need governments to take care of us.

How many degrees do you have?[/quote]

What does it matter?

[quote]Chushin wrote:
So, the government’s past protections for workers (I’m reminded of the Homestead Strike with its armed Pinkerton boys, and the stories that I heard from my immigrant grandfather and his friends in another industry – lots of lost limbs and eyes, & absurd working conditions) were all unnecessary? [/quote]

So male sea horses care for their offspring huh?

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
orion wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
orion wrote:

Free markets- Democracy= all things good.

As to your assumptions that me or anyone else would buy crap products were it not for the government, well I am glad that you can put your need for a master in coherent sentences.

Utopian.

Yes, because that would require a platform where people could rate their experiences with companies.

Something easily accessible, you could even compare prices and stuff.

Na, something like that is completely Utopian.

Maybe, someday, when all these Utopian technologies happen to merge we could even have a company, we could call it “Mississipi” or “Nile” or something ridiculous like that where people who have bought a product state if they like it and why.

Alas, until these golden times we need governments to take care of us.

How many degrees do you have?[/quote]

How many do I need not to visit a restaurant twice that gave me or someone I know food poisoning?

[quote]orion wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
orion wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
orion wrote:

Free markets- Democracy= all things good.

As to your assumptions that me or anyone else would buy crap products were it not for the government, well I am glad that you can put your need for a master in coherent sentences.

Utopian.

Yes, because that would require a platform where people could rate their experiences with companies.

Something easily accessible, you could even compare prices and stuff.

Na, something like that is completely Utopian.

Maybe, someday, when all these Utopian technologies happen to merge we could even have a company, we could call it “Mississipi” or “Nile” or something ridiculous like that where people who have bought a product state if they like it and why.

Alas, until these golden times we need governments to take care of us.

How many degrees do you have?

How many do I need not to visit a restaurant twice that gave me or someone I know food poisoning?

[/quote]

I was half asleep when I wrote that, but you seem to have gotten it this go around. I’m half asleep again, so we’ll see what comes out.

Whenever someone claims “X = panacea!” s/he is, to me, a Utopian. As much as this probably irks you, there is no one philosophy that is “always right” and your attempts to prove otherwise are a more sophisticated version of dhickey’s. You think the internet is the solution? Should Kenya then had subsidized the line that just went in? You think people will always make the right decision? What about natural monopolies (water)? What about information asymmetries?

I’m sure you’ve some pre-made answers, probably even a single (or two!) examples of where things worked out in history. But bottom line, the free market is amazing and should be the primary system, but the government is needed when the markets fail. And they do.

If you’re just arguing for a movement towards these goals but realize there are exceptions, then I misunderstood you and we essentially agree (save maybe to degree). But if you think a completely free market is the panacea that will heal the world (like magic!), then you’re as off the wall as HH, Zeb, Trib, or Tbolt.

As far as the anti-democracy stuff…I’ve no idea what you’re getting at. What do you want? Anarchy? If so then you’re pretty Utopian there too.

IMO, anyway.

Just because something can’t be proven unequivocally, doesn’t mean it’s not true. A dollar does have more value to a slum dweller in Kibera than to a multi-millionaire, I don’t care if I can’t 100% prove it.

/My sleepy half-drunk rambling.

democracy can not be used by anarchists to destroy government because democracy is one thing that technically goes against the basic beliefs of anarchy.

[quote]Evil Dude625 wrote:
democracy can not be used by anarchists to destroy government because democracy is one thing that technically goes against the basic beliefs of anarchy.[/quote]
\

I thought Democracy was the goal of Anarchy, I don’t understand why all the things that would work in anarchy do not work now. Why aren’t all the businesses honest when in an anarchic society they would be?

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Evil Dude625 wrote:
democracy can not be used by anarchists to destroy government because democracy is one thing that technically goes against the basic beliefs of anarchy.
\

I thought Democracy was the goal of Anarchy, I don’t understand why all the things that would work in anarchy do not work now. Why aren’t all the businesses honest when in an anarchic society they would be?

[/quote]

This is not our argument. We argue that the methods for handling “bad business” would be much more efficient without government in the way protecting bad businesses.

Do you even pay attention to what is going on? Hello? GM, et al.

Yes, you and and your ilk would probably be the fist people to die without government protection. So much the better for the rest of us.

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
orion wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
orion wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
orion wrote:

Free markets- Democracy= all things good.

As to your assumptions that me or anyone else would buy crap products were it not for the government, well I am glad that you can put your need for a master in coherent sentences.

Utopian.

Yes, because that would require a platform where people could rate their experiences with companies.

Something easily accessible, you could even compare prices and stuff.

Na, something like that is completely Utopian.

Maybe, someday, when all these Utopian technologies happen to merge we could even have a company, we could call it “Mississipi” or “Nile” or something ridiculous like that where people who have bought a product state if they like it and why.

Alas, until these golden times we need governments to take care of us.

How many degrees do you have?

How many do I need not to visit a restaurant twice that gave me or someone I know food poisoning?

I was half asleep when I wrote that, but you seem to have gotten it this go around. I’m half asleep again, so we’ll see what comes out.

Whenever someone claims “X = panacea!” s/he is, to me, a Utopian. As much as this probably irks you, there is no one philosophy that is “always right” and your attempts to prove otherwise are a more sophisticated version of dhickey’s. You think the internet is the solution? Should Kenya then had subsidized the line that just went in? You think people will always make the right decision? What about natural monopolies (water)? What about information asymmetries?

I’m sure you’ve some pre-made answers, probably even a single (or two!) examples of where things worked out in history. But bottom line, the free market is amazing and should be the primary system, but the government is needed when the markets fail. And they do.

If you’re just arguing for a movement towards these goals but realize there are exceptions, then I misunderstood you and we essentially agree (save maybe to degree). But if you think a completely free market is the panacea that will heal the world (like magic!), then you’re as off the wall as HH, Zeb, Trib, or Tbolt.

As far as the anti-democracy stuff…I’ve no idea what you’re getting at. What do you want? Anarchy? If so then you’re pretty Utopian there too.

IMO, anyway.

Just because something can’t be proven unequivocally, doesn’t mean it’s not true. A dollar does have more value to a slum dweller in Kibera than to a multi-millionaire, I don’t care if I can’t 100% prove it.

/My sleepy half-drunk rambling. [/quote]

Your last point is in fact arguably unprovable.

Anyway, it is not about a system that is perfect. It is about minimizing the threat of violence and maximizing peaceful cooperation.

The problem with democracy is that people vote on a lot of things that are really not their business and thereby try to solve problems that could have been solved or at least endured peacefully with violence.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Evil Dude625 wrote:
democracy can not be used by anarchists to destroy government because democracy is one thing that technically goes against the basic beliefs of anarchy.
\

I thought Democracy was the goal of Anarchy, I don’t understand why all the things that would work in anarchy do not work now. Why aren’t all the businesses honest when in an anarchic society they would be?

This is not our argument. We argue that the methods for handling “bad business” would be much more efficient without government in the way protecting bad businesses.

Do you even pay attention to what is going on? Hello? GM, et al.

Yes, you and and your ilk would probably be the fist people to die without government protection. So much the better for the rest of us.[/quote]

I am glad you know me so well , I am sure you could protect me

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Evil Dude625 wrote:
democracy can not be used by anarchists to destroy government because democracy is one thing that technically goes against the basic beliefs of anarchy.
\

I thought Democracy was the goal of Anarchy, I don’t understand why all the things that would work in anarchy do not work now. Why aren’t all the businesses honest when in an anarchic society they would be?

This is not our argument. We argue that the methods for handling “bad business” would be much more efficient without government in the way protecting bad businesses.

Do you even pay attention to what is going on? Hello? GM, et al.

Yes, you and and your ilk would probably be the fist people to die without government protection. So much the better for the rest of us.[/quote]

I would agree that bailing out GM is not a good idea, but the problem I would have with it is the people that depend on GM for their retirement. I probably would have a conflict of interest because I know so many of them.

I will not lump you with all the other free market people, because I agree with aspects of a free market and I do not think all of them are idiots.

Would you consider it intelligent to make predictions of my ability to survive, when you have no clue on my skills?

I think you have read a book or two that conveys a theory that has plausible aspects and rather than cherry pick and use the best points of it you want to bite it hook line and sinker .You battle anyone that does not buy your total theory even though there has NEVER been a society that works the way you say it would

As far as me dying, I think there are many fates worst than death.