Just as an example; in states that have decriminalized marijuana the police confiscate the weed and issue a citation that requires a court appearance and fine. That is a substantial leap from legal.
I totally agree; however short of violating other laws Iām not convinced the criminal justice system is the best way of dealing with these people.
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Then you are sadly mistaken. Every time a deadly batch pops up junkies scramble for it. Like āWhat? It killed so and so? Damn! That must be some good shitā
Because if you need 5 bags to get high, and 3 of this new shit killed so and so, then if you only do 2- you win!
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Laws against all crimes donāt work if the other person desires to commit a crime. The real issue at hand is how legal consequences of drug possession shape the social outcomes when people decide that they really need to do this drug. At least I think thatās what most of us are talking about, decriminalizing simple possession. Sales and distribution is a whole other topic, and there are people who want to see that decriminalized too.
In a society where hard drug users donāt have children and just like to get high then leave everyone else alone, Iām with you 100%. The trouble is, Iāve never seen anyone like that except for the brief period where they first start using. Perhaps I know some long-time hard drug users who can hide it that well, at least from me. Kudos to them I guess.
Again speaking anecdotally, hard drug use doesnāt take place in a vacuum. Everyone I know personally has managed to cause a great deal of harm to themselves and others long before they had to face any legal consequences. The damage they can leave in their wake is tremendous, all for other people to clean up as best as they can.
Is it better to craft policy that tries to strongly deter it in the first place, or lessen the penalties for the people who manage to get wrapped up in it? Thatās a tough question, and outcomes arenāt always easy to measure.
What makes you say that half of the problems drugs cause are due to criminal penalties? Can you give any examples?
What improves and how if those penalties are lessened?
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I cannot think of a time a law wasnāt enacted against a personās desires.
Iām trying to understand this without making it a tautology, but Iām not sure I can. If people didnāt desire to do that which is illegal then criminal laws would clearly be unnecessary.
Perhaps this is best viewed in the context of supply and demand curves where the prices include the risk of criminal prosecution? I think we need another curve for the price of regulation. In other words maybe there is a set level of demand where outright bans become so expensive to enforce that itās best to tax and regulate? Maybe?
I think it plays an important deterrent role, but I also think we need to give people a way out. I agree treatment is better than jail, and perhaps a case could be made for more publicly-funded treatment programs that people can commit themselves to without any legal consequences.
If we completely or mostly remove the legal consequences for what we know to be powerful drugs that lead to destructive behaviors, I think people might be MORE inclined to continue on with them as long as they can. Because thatās what most of these people Iāve known have done. Ride it out until something really awful happens, and then start walking the path. Thatās for the lucky ones with more favorable outcomes.
You can always OD on heroin late at night and die on the bathroom floor to be found by your 4 year-old daughter the next morning.
Shit happens I guess. At least he never got arrested and faced unreasonably harsh consequences on his path to the grave.
I donāt mean to be dramatic, but thatās life.
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Iām no scholar on the subject, but I think some sort of hybrid approach is possible: give the offender a choice between the standard jail sentence and an equivalent length of time that begins with a period of inpatient rehab (28 days? 60 days? 90 days? Iām no expert in how long that should be) followed by the remainder of that time living in guarded quarters under curfew and working for $2/hour (or whatever acceptably low wage strikes a proper balance between āThatās pitifully lowā vs. āHey, why would we reward drug-offenders with such a well-paying job?ā) performing some work that resembles public service - someone smarter than me can figure this out, but some ideas that come to mind are āmaking clothes / shoes for homeless veteransā or something like that. They do not receive the money upfront, though; itās deferred until the completion of their sentence.
Basically, offer them the chance to work in a civilized sweatshop as an alternative to jail.
If the offender completes their sentence with good behavior, the drug offense is expunged from their criminal record, they are given the money that they earned while working through their sentence and an optional placement with a employer that agrees to hire drug-program graduates (in exchange for a small tax break for every drug-program graduate they hire who stays on the job at least 1 year, or some other incentive).
Iām sure someone can point out a few holes in this, or even give an example of times that this has been tried and failed miserably - as I said, Iām no scholar on the subject. In the words of Owen Wilson, Iām an idea man.
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This discussion has focused primarily on addicts; the extreme end of the spectrum. What about the millions of Americans whom are one-time, low-frequency, or recreational users of hard drugs? Should their freedom, lives, and careers hang on the balance?
In college, plenty of people were experimenting or using harder drugs on special occasions such as parties or concerts as a passing fling. Sure, if they get caught they broke the law etc, and yes stories float around about bad drugs putting folks in the hospital, assaults, & what have you. But for most of these people, the potential of getting caught with it was the most likely negative consequence, beyond a questionable social mistake they could already make using alcohol.
US is at 185, I think. Here are the European numbers.
Thatās why I think itās important to separate Oxy, Cocaine, weed, etc from heroin, PCP, meth. The former list are drugs that can be used āillegallyā for a good time, but do not create a psychological addiction to the extent that heroin does, for example.
What Oregon has done is very short sided and not well thought out, imo. They target recovery, but ignore reducing first-time-users, and, arguably encourage them. Additionally, as stated above, they lump sum drugs that have very different effects on usersā ability to function. Which, as stated and implied, they are attempting to assist in recovery of the heavy users, not remove the criminal repercussions to a corporate directorās coke habit.
Further, oxy is a legally prescribed drug, the others are not. Again, just seems like a haphazard piece of government work.
āHouse Bill 378 reduces drug-related property crimes from felonies to misdemeanors. It passed 33-26 in the House and 18-11 in the Senate.ā
An individual was high on meth earlier this year and stole my wifeās car. My interpretation of this is that he would of just been ticketed, since he was high. That seems fair, huh?
[quote=ādchris, post:71, topic:231956ā]
Thatās why I think itās important to separate Oxy, Cocaine, weed, etc from heroin, PCP, meth. The former list are drugs that can be used āillegallyā for a good time, but do not create a psychological addiction to the extent that heroin does, for example.[/quote]
Oxycodone is incredibly addictive.
Iām pretty sure similar programs already exist in MANY places. Our rural Jackson County Mississippi has a ādrug courtā that is a diversionary program for drug offenders. They have the opportunity to complete a treatment program and serve community service in exchange for having the charges expunged.
That is another area where it gets weird. This creates a division in the penalties for a crime based on the condition of the criminal, thereby creating an institutional preference to drug users. That is bizarro world messaging if Iāve ever heard it.
You can steal to feed your habit, but not your family.
Iām kind of torn on this whole subject because Iām an addict/alcoholic in recovery. On one hand, I can see and have experienced the direct effects of these drugs. Easily hundreds of people at this point that Iāve known and hung out with- dead. They made my life very difficult and just about ended it numerous times. Opportunities have been pulled right off of the table, resumes thrown in the trash, and a few choice HR people bluntly telling me that Iām scum due to criminal background.
On the other hand- Its impossible to pinpoint what event or which ass chapping got me to the point that sobriety looks like a better option. It seems like it was all of them. It certainly wasnāt my first brush with the law, and thereās really no telling whether or not my last ( in 1999) was truly the last. So part of me says āNo. Donāt pad the bottom with any cushion. Make sure that when someone hits, they hit with a splatter. Anything less and they miss the point.ā
Anyways, when I think about this stuff from both sides it ends up in a draw. How many rehabs is it going to take for any given person? Who knows? How many prison terms? Who knows? Does it really have to be that difficult?
Speaking only for myself I just had to get to the point that I didnāt want to live anymore, but didnāt want to die either. It really did have to be like that. For some, it just doesnāt happen. They die. Breaking a drug or alcohol habit and learning new life skills in real time when everything is a mess and the person is psychologically debilitated from substance abuse, a multitude of cognitive fallacies and/or disorders is just ridiculously difficult. Some would say, and I agree- miraculous.
I just donāt think that it can be socially engineered or induced.
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Interesting chart. I wonder how they calculated this thoughādoes this only include deaths from using or does this include deaths from trafficking/gang/Law enforcement?
Based on my (admittedly fuzzy) recollection of usage rates in the US vs EU it seems likely that 18.5 deaths per 100,000 would HAVE to include deaths from trafficking etc. If thatās the case I donāt think it is an accurate comparison at all.
To be clear, in my statement(s) above regarding an alternative pathway for drug possession rather than criminal prosecution, offenses committed while on drugs would be prosecuted independent of the drug offense. I am not in favor of drug-users being given preferential treatment under the āBut he was highā exception. My āalternativeā pathway would not exempt someone for prosecution for other offenses committed while under the influence. Someone that stole a car high could/should be prosecuted for that offense, not covered under the āBut he was highā defense.
While I think we could go back & forth over the semantics of the severity of each drug, the scheduling system is pretty out of whack in this country. Iād prefer to see a harm-based system. LSD, marijuana, etc would be well away from opiates and PCP.
@ActivitiesGuy summed up my thoughts regarding crimes while intoxicated in a more eloquent manner[quote=āActivitiesGuy, post:76, topic:231956ā]
To be clear, in my statement(s) above regarding an alternative pathway for drug possession rather than criminal prosecution, offenses committed while on drugs would be prosecuted independent of the drug offense. I am not in favor of drug-users being given preferential treatment under the āBut he was highā exception. My āalternativeā pathway would not exempt someone for prosecution for other offenses committed while under the influence. Someone that stole a car high could/should be prosecuted for that offense, not covered under the āBut he was highā defense.
[/quote]
I feel for you, and good on you for pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. Too many of those close to me have similar stories.
That being said, there are many people whom are very infrequent users and are not addicted. I donāt mean this as an insult in any way, but do you feel the drug laws should in essence pander only to those whom have the weakest resistances in regards to addiction?
I am of 2 minds on this. Part of me really agrees with you, and all the more so because you and twojarslave have really experienced this first hand and say it. It is very true that until the pain of change becomes less than the pain of staying the same nobody will adapt. For drugs that is a deep deep hole.
The other part of me says, where we can offer a way out of suffering and shame without reducing or making excuses for personal responsibility we should.
I think we agree. I donāt quite know where the line of clarification should be between āhardā and ānot quite as hardā drugs is; I just think there should be a line. To be honest, my real concern is that cocaine, weed and oxy are thrown in so that professionals such as politicians, commercial brokers, lawyers, etc. wonāt lose their licensing/certification if they get caught with a white nose on the weekend. A misdemeanor for possession is significantly different than a felony for possession of cocaine.