Sarcasm…I do wonder though. Question; do you believe the number of men engaging in homosexual activities has increased because the laws against such were overturned/repealed? Or is the actual number the same and we are just more aware?
“Scare them straight” practices haven’t been proven to work, in fact, they have increased the use of whatever they were trying to stop. I understand the intentions, and theoretically it should work, but it has been proven to not be effective.
https://www.ncjrs.gov/html/ojjdp/news_at_glance/234084/topstory.html
https://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2010/11/26/scared-straight-not-really/
[quote] A Cochrane review found that the evidence is against the scare method of helping troubled teens. The review by Cochrane, which is highly regarded for evidence-based health care and medicine, found that kids who went through the Scared Straight program were actually 70 percent more likely to go on to commit a crime as compared to randomly selected teens who did not experience the program.
Another review, published in Counselor, found similar results. After analyzing the literature, the authors found that in more than 40 years of research, no studies could be found that supported confrontational strategies in dealing with drug problems. What they did find is that these methods can actually cause harm, especially in teens. [/quote]
Emphasis mine.
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I’m not sure if the line can be drawn between those 2 things. Many people fear doing hard drugs because of the jailtime it would represent if you’re caught. With homosexuality it wasn’t illegal (although IIRC some states had laws against it) as much as it was fear of being outed.
I’d bet the number of people engaging in homosexual activities has gone up since legalization, as the stigma lowered and less people felt forced into the closet. Edit: This part is a pure guess, I have no stats to back this up.
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I’ve been a bit hesitant to comment up to this point, but I’ll share this little tidbit-
By the time I was using at 12 yrs. old, that type of confrontation coupled with violence was so commonplace in my life that I didn’t feel right without it. By the time I found myself in real jail- a couple weeks after turning 18, I felt perfectly at home.
Those programs would be downright comical if they weren’t trying to be so serious.
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Does anyone actually know any hard drug users who do it without fucking anyone else over in life?
I’m sure plenty of rich junkies can pull that off, but I’m talking about regular people here, the vast majority of hard drug users. Every single hard drug user I’ve known leaves a trail of destruction in their quest to get high, and this can come in a variety of ways. This is all stuff I’ve observed among people I know personally.
-Stealing from friends and family.
-Compulsive lying, total degradation of trust, spreading lies about other people
-Falling asleep at the wheel when children need to be raised
-Giving drugs to minors and causing fatal overdoses
-Screwing over co-workers
-Draining the resources of anyone who is compassionate enough to help
I keep my personal life off of T-Nation for the most part, but for the last few months I’ve been doing everything I can to help out a young man I know. He’s 15 and his drug addicted mother allowed him to drop out of school as a sophomore (which is illegal). He is teetering on the edge right now, where the way he handles school and the challenges of life are going to have a huge impact on what kind of life he ends up living.
I met with the principal and got him back in school. I’ve been trying to show him how to navigate life without lying. I just caught him stealing from me, which was explained away with more lies, and now we’re working on that too. This is a good kid who has been raised around “harmless” drug users, where he has learned to lie, steal, and always blame other people for any bad outcome. Fortunately he’s back in (summer) school now, I put him in BJJ class with me (which he loves) and he’s learning to take accountability for his own actions and learning how that produces better outcomes in life. And I’m still not sure this is going to be enough to stop him from following his mother’s example.
I don’t hold a grudge against this kid for all of the time and money I spent, but gee, wouldn’t it be nice if his parents had that covered instead of, I don’t know, getting high as fuck all of the goddamn time?
Of course, if you ask his mom what’s going on, she’ll tell you that everything is fine. Her life is under control. Her kids are fantastic. And she’s stopped trying to pretend like she doesn’t do drugs, but she still clings to the lie that her habits aren’t hurting anyone else.
Bullshit.
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What I’m getting from that is delinquent and at-risk youths aren’t scared off of drugs or criminal behaviour by boot camps or confrontational strategies.
That makes sense since delinquent kids are at a higher risk of everything, and less apt to listen to authority figures about anything.
How do you propose limiting the number of people who try hard drugs? Especially in school.
Nope.
Nah. Even they ruin every relationship that they have. Not that they’re aware of it, but they affect the people around them just as badly as the poor dirty thieves.
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I have been keeping quiet on the topic for a reason, I don’t really know. I only knew about the scared straight information and research saying that it doesn’t work. So obviously something different, but I’m not sure. I do know the war on drugs has been ineffective, but it is hard to know how bad things would be if we didn’t do anything or legalized. I’m enjoying the debate so far, only wanted to chime in on areas I actually know about as I need to learn more about this subject.
I have heard that cognitive behavior therapy has showed some promise in getting people to change specifically related to crime/violence and improve their lives, but I do not think it some comprehensive solution that solves everything.
http://www.thedailyriff.com/articles/how-chicagos-bam-becoming-a-man-program-works-1183.php
I’ve read many of your posts and you are a good guy and a smart guy. But there is no comparison between homosexual behavior and drug usage. A person either has an attraction to someone of the same sex or they don’t. Whereas, drug usage begins at an early age (in most cases) and making drugs legal and plentiful will not deter someone from trying them. In fact, it may have the opposite effect. It’s basically a market place and the more plentiful that you make your product the more people will try it. Like giving away free (or cheap) cokes at the County Fair.
I understand that the folks hooked on drugs who want treatment should get it. I am certainly pro treatment for those who want it without arrest. But legalizing hard drugs will be a freaking disaster.
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I am the same. I am trying to look up statistics to confirm or deny, but I recall Portugal has a higher % of the population using narcotics than the US to begin with. If that is the case, and I can’t be sure, then it makes sense that a decriminalization policy would see some positive effects. The same may not be true for us here.
Mucho kudos to you for being so damned awesome. That is the kind of work we need to be doing, and you’re right–the parents need to be the ones doing it. Nevertheless I am glad you’re doing all this.
Anecdotally I have found that BJJ is a great way to instill some of that accountability and respect. I wish you the best
I am on the fence as I said before, but I lean this way as well. I do NOT think the war on drugs has worked at all, but the solution isn’t in my mind to swing the pendulum to the other extreme. I think something in the middle is better
The war on drugs is a failure because there is a market for the product. Making an even larger market for the product will only cause more product to be sold. A product suddenly more accessible and legal will be more in demand.
I think the answer is in treating those who are in need without giving them a criminal record. Have an amnesty period where any and all who use and want help can get it, free of charge with no penalties. This will immediately cut back the demand which should drive prices higher for those who choose to use drugs. That means that there will be less people who can afford them. We then win two ways. Users in trouble get treated and stop becoming users (at least a good percentage of them). And because of the higher prices there will be those who will use less, or not at all. This will continue to drive prices even higher which once again reduces the number of users.
At the same time continue the tough drug laws as a deterrent. While they are not working on their own they will at least help with the new system in place.
Thanks. I’m not one to virtue signal on the internet, but it is hard to understate how frustrated and angry I’ve been at this situation lately, and it all goes right back to hard drugs. Meth I know for sure, pills are almost certainly in the mix, and who knows what else.
When I think about what I know about this family, their history and other hard drug users I’ve known, I really struggle to think of how legalization would have produced an improved outcome. This is a world of fucked up, selfish people doing fucked up, selfish things with no real regard for the consequences to themselves or others.
I can’t fathom how making the drugs that fuel this behavior more accessible and with fewer consequences will help. If someone can explain it to me, I’d love to hear it.
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The original post was specific to decriminalizing; not making anything legal.
As I posted earlier; I remain on the fence specific to decriminalizing hard drugs and I’m certainly opposed to legalizing them outright.
decriminalize
[dee-krim-uh-nl-ahyz]
verb (used with object), de·crim·i·nal·ized, de·crim·i·nal·iz·ing.
to eliminate criminal penalties for or remove legal restrictions against:
to decriminalize marijuana
Yes but there is a huge spectrum of policies that we’re talking about here with pretty non-specific language.
I’m not opposed to changing drug policy if it produces better outcomes, including reduced criminal sentences under certain situations. I remain skeptical of just how that works in the real-world, and I can’t fathom how reducing the consequences lead to improving the outcome.
I’ve known more hard drug users than I care to admit, and I just don’t buy the “poor me, I’m a victim of an uncontrollable disease” line. I’ve seen a few turn their life around, but things had to get BAD for them first, long after they’ve run rough-shod over the lives of everyone who used to care about them. The consequences had to be real and, in most cases, the consequences that actually managed to hit home involved the criminal justice system and a forced break from their favorite hobby of getting high as fuck and letting everyone else clean up the mess.
Again, if someone can explain the reasoning behind how this actually changes junkie behavior, I’m all ears.
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Well done sir…
I’m sure you realize that violation of the traffic laws are not criminal violations, that doesn’t mean they are without consequence. There are a number of states where certain quantities of marijuana are decriminalized, that doesn’t mean it is legal to possess, grow, or sell.
Depending on the lines drawn in the policies, some amount must become legal. Or maybe judges get discretion to charge dealers and not junkies.
But at some level decriminalization means making it legal. Literally by definition. Your quote above confused me. I had to look up the word to make sure it meant what it means.
I cannot think of a time where a law against a person’s desires has ever worked. The law only needs to start where the infringement’s on another’s rights begins. Decriminalizing people with addictions and make readily available to solutions to their addictions seems to me, the best way to go. And should they choose never to get help, well it’s their choice.
Half the problems drugs cause are due to it’s criminalization. Should these users be able to use without legal repercussions, most should be able to support their habits on their own.
I am betting that most over doses are due to bad product, not because a person is so deranged they want to take their use to the limit of near-death.