[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
A) To argue semantics, that story was written into the margins by a monk much later after Jesus’s death, and adapted into the Bible afterwards.
More info, please? What monk, and when? And, this specific story? You speak of this as fact. Do remember that I come at this as a believer. And, correct me if I’m wrong, but we’re talking about true believers, not skeptics.
B) I’m pretty sure the language is clear in saying (I’m paraphrasing) “If your son is rebellious, bring him in front of the town and stone him to death.” Not “he should be stoned” but “stone him”.
Jesus and/or the apostles said this? New covenant… Christians are bound by the New covenant. We look at the old testament as mankind’s incomplete relationship. Christ himself said he came to fullfill the law. I (though perhaps not all sects) view the old testament as a civilizing of a harsh nomadic people. A people who perhaps had even harsher laws and punishments, up until then. So again, we (christians) view Christ as the fullfillment of law.
C) Jesus specifically states, in the Bible, that his words do not and shall never override the words of the old testament.
You’re badly paraphrasing, as he goes on to say he fullfills the law. And his Apostles, filled with the holy spirit, shake things up on behalf of the gentiles, I might add. Christ’s teachings are pretty clear, he is the judge of sin. Again, this is actually a true believer view. If you don’t see Christ as the Son of God, then you don’t see him as the one and only judge between man and God.
Note Christ, and his apostles, never even implore the early faithful to practice ‘eye for an eye’ against their persecuters. Furthermore, not only do Christ and the apostles refrain from punishing sinners, they hang out with them constantly! Something the religious authorities found as despicable.
If anything, the Koran is much more forgiving to intellectuals than the bible is, as it was written in a time when Muslims were superior scientists, doctors, and artists.
huh?
If you believe Muslims and Islam have never been persecuted you’re sadly mistaken. The blunt truth is that Islam sucks right now, but all three suck equally throughout history.
Never claimed wrongs haven’t been committed against muslims.
Just about every belief has sucked throughout history. Atheistic regimes have had some bloody hands. How many dead just to found our own nation? Or, any nation, pretty much? How many have died in the name of freedom? How many have died to make distribution of resources “more equal” amongst the people? How many have died for capitialism, socialism, communism, fascism, nationalism, individualism, or just about any ‘ism’ you can think of?
Evils committed in the name of Christ, are done in spite of him. He came like a lamb, and sent his apostles out as such. Now somewhere along the way, far too many ‘Christians’ have gone forth as lions and wolves.
A) I’m not finding the damn article. Old bibles don’t contain the story. They found one with it in the margins. It was adapted, that much is obvious. I personally don’t believe Jesus as a person existed at all.
B/C) I’d need more information, but I’m sure you can interpret it either way. Most of theology is about interpretation.
And yes, just about every organized belief has sucked. I kind of implied that I considered them ALL religions. Religion, to me, is an organized force that wants to run your life by telling you what to believe.
I’m pretty sure it is not the beliefs of Jesus that have sucked, but CHRISTIANITY.
So, why can’t we just examine Christ as a philosopher? Why do we have to make him and his book an absolute force? Why is the “religion” part necessary? [/quote]
I’ll throw in on this discussion. First, I am weary of “scripture mining” because by pulling things out of contexts of the whole work in any book, you can put passages together to basically justify any kind of behaviour. What you have to realize about the old testament, for instance, that the audience primarily lived drab agricultural lives where not a whole lot happened. The stories that appealed to them where those of war, conquest, power, etc. The authors knew this and responded in kind. The message is that with God you will be victorious, you will conquer, greatness can be achieved. Those with out God in the old testament always lost. That was a powerful message to those people. It’s not just he bible, in general ye olde literature is all about war, warriors, blood and gore.
The new testament was written much later and the message was different. God was already established as THE power, where as the old testament spent a lot of time establishing God’s power. Once God was established as the power you can then fine tune the message.
Your problem with organized religion is a people problem. Organized religion has change the world profoundly. I do not think that was an accident. You focus on the negatives. Christianity has done great things. From profoundly changing the Roman empire from a murder for fun government to a far more kind an humane organization to saving thousands of jews from the holocaust. There are dark moments in Christianity, sure, but there are many good moments as well. look at the whole picture.
Jesus did exist and he changed the world. Hell, he even changed the calender we follow. It would be weirder if a myth managed to do that versus a real person who really existed.
As far as I am concerned looking at Jesus as a philosopher is a really good idea. I think it’s a shame if not just plain stupid of many Christians to think of Jesus or God as so lofty you can’t question what is said. If it’s true it will pass the test. I think a God who truly wants intimacy with it’s creation would welcome it. Only a God afraid of being exposed as a fraud would fear close examination and questioning.
That’s my $.02.