Death of America

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
I think totalitarian fascism has been defined down if all that it takes to implement it is a string of speeches from a President who can’t be re-elected in 2008 that are critical of those who disagree with him…

Nailed it.

[/quote]

I was reading James Lileks today, and he nailed it:

http://www.lileks.com/bleats/archive/06/0906/092006.html

EXCERPT:

We arrive an hour early for choir, because Tuesday’s pizza night in the tertiary adjunct church basement annex. (It’s a big place.) The kids all watched TV and ate horrible pizza; the moms chatted, the toddlers waddled. Sometimes I chat with the moms, but there wasn’t a seat at the table, and I didn’t want to make everyone move six hundred pounds of coats and purses, so I went up to the library and got the Klemperer diary. (I hadn’t finished it, and when I’m at church with time to spare I pick it up.) I’ve mentioned this before ? it’s a meticulous account of life in Dresden during the Nazi regime, written by a Jewish academic whose “Aryan” wife kept him from the chimney. The diaries start in the early years of Hitler’s rule, and it’s unutterably depressing; in 1937 the diarist is insisting that the government cannot last, and all the decent people believe it will fall soon. (He survived the war, incidentally; the diaries go to the end.)

I was reading the 1941 passages today. Klemperer had his house confiscated by the state, although he was still obliged to pay for a new roof. He was put in a Jewish Home with his wife. Every month, the noose tightens, and not just for him; shortages are rife, and the planes begin to drone overhead. His descriptions of the media give you an idea of where Orwell got the tone and flavor of “1984” ? the state’s incessant pronouncements are heroic and brash and uncomplicated by nuance. Every battle is the greatest ever; every tactic the most brilliant in history. What interested me was his description of the dreaded Sunday announcements: The week would begin with stock phrases, such as “the plan is unfolding as expected;” the middle of the week would offer a glimpse of the news to come, and Sundays were always the same: blare of trumpets, drum roll, Deutschland Uber Alles and the Horst Wessel song, followed by an announcement of a victory on the whichever front the government chose to spotlight. The diarist found Sundays depressing; every victory meant the attenuation of the regime, a continuation of his torments. But surely it would fall soon; surely people would turn. Why, he’d noted that fewer people said “Heil Hitler” instead of “Good Morning” ? this must mean something. It must. Perhaps it did, but it didn’t matter.

By “torments” I don’t mean he was hauled down to the station and beaten. No. He was just denied something different every week. Once the Jews had become accustomed to being banned from public libraries, they were banned from private lending libraries. Once they had gotten used to the special taxes, the taxes were raised. Once they had settled into the special apartment buildings after their homes were taken, they were denied common areas after dark and confined to their apartments. And so on. That was 1941. He had four years to go. Imagine yourself standing on a street at 7:30, watching the taxis pour past, knowing you must be in your room by eight, or it’s the train and the barracks.

Imagine telling that detail to a friend, and noting his shock: he had no idea. He was appalled. (As Klemperer relates it, his German friend, an eminently liberal humanist, nevertheless hoped for the defeat of England; he had managed to separate his dislike of Hitler from his abiding hatred of Great Britain. You infer that the latter blinded him to the former, and that allowed him to reconcile his humanism with the deprivations he knew his Jewish friends faced. In the end we must all make sacrifices, no?)

That was fascism.

Yesterday my paper’s editorial section ran a cartoon from one of the staff artists, a feature that illustrates a quote chosen for its stinging pertinence. The illustration shows two typically stupid Americans with toothy grins and military hats emblazoned with dollar signs. They’re clutching books that say “HOLY WRIT.” The quote:

“I have often thought that if a rational, fascist dictatorship were to exist, the it would choose the American system.” Noam Chomsky

And I used to think that if Elle McPherson really existed, she would parachute naked through my apartment window. She never did but it doesn’t mean it won’t happen.

Any day now. Any day.

An angry man on the radio yesterday insisted that talk radio was part of the “fascist control” of the media. He was, of course, a barking lunatic, as nuts as the people who were certain Clinton would use Y2K to appoint himself Bubba the First and suspend the Constitution. But if you dial down the rhetoric a little, you find the same overheated sentiments in more mainstream quarters. It reminded me of Keith Olbermann, who, by his own words, is the first person to criticize the current Administration, all other voices of dissent having willingly stifled themselves in accordance with Archie Bunker Act of 2002. The other day he birthed this rich observation:

" . . .That flash of lightning freezes at the distant horizon, and we can just make out a world in which authority can actually suggest it has become unacceptable to think. Thus the lightning flash reveals not merely a President we have already seen, the one who believes he has a monopoly on current truth. It now shows us a President who has decided that of all our commanders-in-chief, ever, he alone has had the knowledge necessary to alter and re-shape our inalienable rights."

Yes, indeed. Well, having just read what actual altering and reshaping rights looks like, I am disinclined to panic over the thing made out in the distant horizon via lightning, even if it reveals “a world” ? presumably Manhattan, below 150th street ? in which “authority” ? presumably Drinky W. Flyboy, the Resident-in-Chief ? actually suggests that thinking is unacceptable, and we must hereby rely on our autonomous nervous system.

Hear ye: if ever I announce that the lightning is sending me messages about how the government seeks to control what I think, please have me commited for paranoid schizophrenia.

Then again, it’s no ordinary lightning flash. It simultaneously “reveals not merely a President we have already seen,” but one who is preparing to revoke Keith Olbermann’s right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of a job on a network a lot of people actually watch. Fine; it’s good red meat, and there’s always a market for that. (Insert obligatory Ann Coulter denunciation!) Mr. O has his furrow, and he will spend the next two years shoving the blade in the dirt. He will have fans and nice write-ups and profiles and the rest of the perks that follow when you stake out a particular niche. Just like Art Bell. And just like Art Bell, he will instantly become a footnote the moment something horrible and significant happens, and his nonsense is swamped by things that actually happen, instead of things he believes are actually suggested.

One of the constant rhetorical ticks in my email concerns my incontinence when it comes to “terrorism.” Apparently people of my ilk are constantly pissing or piddling ourselves when the government plays the ol’ booga-booga card. We drop our Big Gulps and shout “oh, protect me from the scary Mooselmen, Great Father!” I think it was Woocott who first dribbled this particular riposte, and it’s caught on. A day doesn’t go by in which someone doesn’t point out a direct connection between ginned-up scare-news and the retentive abilities of my urethra.

Perhaps it’s so; perhaps there’s a reason I sit in the dark at night making cold calls to Pakistan, hoping the government taps my phone and maybe, just maybe, finds a terrorist on the other end.

But there’s a certain dark jot of damp trouser-front to Olbermann’s rhetoric as well, no?

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I was reading James Lileks today, and he nailed it:[/quote]

You call this “nailing it”?

Lileks basically spends a whole page talking about, well, nothing. No substance whatsoever. Just beating around the bush.

Pop quiz: what happened last time people started saying “Stop the alarmism – it’s not that bad. It’s not really fascism”?

The hypocrisy is mind-boggling – on one hand, it’s OK for everyone on the right, from Bush to Bill O’Reilly, to overstate the threats to our security, but anyone who overstates the totalitarian underline in each and every one of Bush’s speeches these days, as well as the really scary part – people cheering them for being the meanest sumabitch on the block, reminding us of how Germans cheered Hitler into power in the 30s – is a nutjob?

A lot of people might be overstating the problem – but anything, and I mean anything that even hints at taking us away from the fundamental spirit that this country was built on SHOULD be overstated.

“The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive.” – Thomas Jefferson

“The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive.” – Thomas Jefferson

Talking one way and acting another is not an uncommon trait among even the greatest American politicians. Time and circumstance sometimes alter their view.

It sure must have to Jefferson when he used the military as an occupation force for months during the Embargo era, ignoring and defying the federal courts and the law before finally getting a drastic force act and legalizing his routine military enforcement of the laws against American citizens? I could go on about Jefferson and civil liberties but my hands would fall off…

Contrary to the conventional version of American history, the first generation of independence did not bring liberty to its apogee; nor has it been eroding away ever since.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
I was reading James Lileks today, and he nailed it:

hspder wrote:
You call this “nailing it”?

Lileks basically spends a whole page talking about, well, nothing. No substance whatsoever. Just beating around the bush.

Pop quiz: what happened last time people started saying “Stop the alarmism – it’s not that bad. It’s not really fascism”?[/quote]

The Reagan revolution?
(?Ronald Reagan must be the nicest president who ever destroyed a union and tried to cut school
lunch milk rations from six to four ounces . . . Ronald Reagan is tailored to the image of a
friendly fascist.? Robert Lekachman, economist)

The Goldwater Presidential campaign?
(?We see dangerous signs of Hitlerism in the Goldwater campaign.? Martin Luther King, Jr.)

The Bush Sr. presidency?
(I’d find a quote for this, but the internet is too flooded with quotes accusing W. Bush of fascism…)

Nixon?

Or perhaps Thatcherism in Britain?

Sorry if we don’t pay more attention to the liberals who cry “wolf.”

http://andrewhammel.typepad.com/german_joys/2006/08/godwins_law_sta.html

EXCERPT:

Let’s imagine what our world would look like if George W. Bush really were a Nazi.

First, to the foreign policy:

-Guantanamo Bay would, of course, exist. However, it would be receiving constant new shipments of people, because the initial residents would all long since be dead -- worked and starved to death, and then incinerated in crematoria or dumped in mass graves. Of course, no journalist or lawyer would be allowed on the premises. Except those who had criticized the Administration, and they would last no longer than the other prisoners.

-The new inmates from Guantanamo Bay -- and the dozens of other camps like it -- would have been swept up during raids in Iraq and Afghanistan, or in the United States. If they offered the slightest resistance, they would be shot on the spot. Once they were packed off into the transport planes, nobody would ever hear of them again. Their families would receive a postcard a few months later saying they "died in a work accident."

-Iraq and Afghanistan would be filled with large factories producing consumer goods and materiel for the American war effort. The workers would live in secure camps next to the factories, would work 12-15 hours a day for no wages, and would receive food rations well below what they required to stay in good health. I don't even need to mention that the oil would be shipped directly to the United States, and anyone who questioned why Iraqis were not being paid for it would be sent immediately to Guantanamo, if not simply executed on the spot.

-To deter insurgent attacks, the U.S. military would round up 50-100 civilians who lived near the site of any attack, line them up against a wall, shoot them. Their bodies would be allowed to rot in the sun for a few days to bring the message home, and then the U.S. military would announce the action and its justification in printed Arabic posters all over the city.

Now, to domestic affairs:

-Bush would be the unquestioned and absolute leader of the United States. There might still be a U.S. Congress, but it would be no more than a rubber-stamp, and a shift in power would be inconceivable. Bush would have a ruling philosophy called, let's say, Bushism. Under this philosophy, persons of Arab descent would be viewed as inferior and harmful to the human race. They would be locked away in ghettos just outside major U.S. cities; anyone who left the ghetto without authorization would be shot on sight by government guards. Their property, jobs, and all civil rights would be stripped of them. Eventually, all of them, without a single exception, would be shipped to death factories and incinerated. As at Auschwitz, the crematoria would be so busy that their chimneys would have to be regularly unclogged of human fat deposits.

-There would be no Democratic Party. It would be an illegal organization, and most of its leaders would be long dead. There would only be the Bush Republican Party. Anyone who sought serious career advancement would have to join it. The press, the military, the economic elite, writers, the legal profession, and even the medical profession would all be required to accept basic principles of Bushism. Although prominent professionals might have some leeway to timidly criticize the party line or refuse to take part in discrimination, most would not have this option. If they openly criticized Bush, they would at a minimum lose their jobs, and might well be shipped off to Guantanamo or some similar place, never to be heard from again.

-Any media outlet that criticized Bush's policies would promptly be shut down by a large, shadowy domestic security agency. Their presses and servers would be confiscated and destroyed by the government, and their editors shipped off to Guantanamo, probably after a brief show trial in which they confessed that they were traitors or spies who deserved nothing better. The public confessions would be secured by torture and threats against their remaining family members.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
The Reagan revolution? [/quote]

Well, Reagan sent the public debt to unprecedented levels and is widely hated by all scientists, starting with economists, for basically starting the process of removing truth, reason, facts and science from political discource. Maybe because he was certifiably senile as early as his second term campaign and still got elected. Looking at his popularity, if everything, he is proof of how little Americans care about reality. They’d rather have somebody tell them a nice story that would best belong in a nice movie or TV series than tell them the pure, unadulterated truth.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
The Goldwater Presidential campaign?
(?We see dangerous signs of Hitlerism in the Goldwater campaign.? Martin Luther King, Jr.)[/quote]

I’m not even going to comment on that one – first, because I’m still shocked that you are actually putting MLK in the nut bag – and I’m afraid that will break my keyboard if I actually respond – second, because he’s not even saying Goldwater was a fascist.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
(I’d find a quote for this, but the internet is too flooded with quotes accusing W. Bush of fascism…)[/quote]

Where there’s so much smoke, there must be a fire.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Nixon?

Or perhaps Thatcherism in Britain?[/quote]

Nixon and Thatcher? They both left in disgrace. You’re seriously defending them? They were both egomaniacs of the worst kind; even people who voted for them admit as much.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Sorry if we don’t pay more attention to the liberals who cry “wolf.”[/quote]

So why do you pay attention to conservatives who do? Is it that the concept is wrong in itself, or is it that you only accept it when it’s convenient?

[quote]Jack_Dempsey wrote:
Talking one way and acting another is not an uncommon trait among even the greatest American politicians. Time and circumstance sometimes alter their view.[/quote]

Absolutely – but that just reinforces the point that we must constantly keep them in check.

Nothing you wrote even remotely goes toward the general direction of a point on why anyone should pay attention to ridiculous scaremongering on how the U.S. is goosestepping its way toward fascism (or to any of the previous hyperbolic warnings of people who throw around the word “fascism” as if it means "anything that liberals find generally disagreeable in a politician or political figure).

Perhaps instead of tossing around ridiculous hyperboles, we should consider why no one finds the accusation scary anymore – perhaps they believe “if this is fascism, how bad could it be” – which is the dangerous thing about debasing the language by trying to toss out scary terms where they don’t apply. The words themselves cease to have any meaning, and those who toss them out lose credibility with people who remember what they really mean.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Perhaps instead of tossing around ridiculous hyperboles, we should consider why no one finds the accusation scary anymore – perhaps they believe “if this is fascism, how bad could it be” – which is the dangerous thing about debasing the language by trying to toss out scary terms where they don’t apply. The words themselves cease to have any meaning, and those who toss them out lose credibility with people who remember what they really mean.[/quote]

That is absolutely true – the problem is that everybody is doing it, left and right – about not only fascism, but just about anything; hyperbole, exaggeration, overstatement and distortion of not only words, but truth, is a fundamental part of politics, whatever party or ideology your subscribe to. So pointing the finger squarely at one example – the left accusing this administration of totalitarian actions and calling them wannabe fascists – is hypocritical. The right does exactly the same, simply with other issues…

We’re ALL guilty of it. You included.

[quote]hspder wrote:
That is absolutely true – the problem is that everybody is doing it, left and right – about not only fascism, but just about anything; hyperbole, exaggeration, overstatement and distortion of not only words, but truth, is a fundamental part of politics, whatever party or ideology your subscribe to. So pointing the finger squarely at one example – the left accusing this administration of totalitarian actions and calling them wannabe fascists – is hypocritical. The right does exactly the same, simply with other issues…

We’re ALL guilty of it. You included.[/quote]

But this is your thread about facsism, no?

To attack the hyperbole specific to this topic - in this thread - is hardly hypocritical.

Are you saying you don’t disagree - yet feel the need to include everything political under the canopy now?

I went frog hunting one time with my cousins outside Houston. You never counted a frog as caught until you had it in the bag, and the bag was tied shut. They are slippery little buggers that - even though they know they are as good as caught - keep squirming and wiggling.

Your posts in this thread remind me of those frogs. It was also the first time I ever tried Beechnut chewing tobacco. Good times…

[quote]hspder wrote:
That is absolutely true – the problem is that everybody is doing it, left and right – about not only fascism, but just about anything; hyperbole, exaggeration, overstatement and distortion of not only words, but truth, is a fundamental part of politics, whatever party or ideology your subscribe to. So pointing the finger squarely at one example – the left accusing this administration of totalitarian actions and calling them wannabe fascists – is hypocritical. The right does exactly the same, simply with other issues…

We’re ALL guilty of it. You included.[/quote]

hspder,

You are the Queen of Hyperbole. You perfectly represent everything that is wrong with the attitudes of the leadership of the left. 99% of what is uttered is either complete hyperbole, or that condescending elitism looking down your nose on others. You and your ilk offer no practical real world solutions. You refuse to work with moderates of either side out of fear of looking like you are unworthy of your self-fulfilling “holier than thou-ness”.

If you really want to lay blame for the “Death of America”, lay it at your own feet. It started with the rebellious youth of the 60s who made protests with hyperbole a national sport. Now they are all grown up and many are todays Democratic Political leaders looking for that long lost hey-day of the 60s with it’s opimum for the liberal masses of marches, demonstrations, and general “sticking it to the man”. And it doesn’t wash anymore. No one in their right mind will ever take the left serious until they come up with real solutions to problems.

The republicans don’t have it all together either, but they at least don’t sound like such the idiots the liberals do.

It’s your own fault. And your hometown on the bay was ground zero.

[quote]NE2000 wrote:
You and your ilk offer no practical real world solutions.[/quote]

That’s quite a convenient way of putting it – what you are basically saying is that whatever we propose you’ll just tag it as “not a practical real world solution”.

I have, many times, proposed practical, proven, detailed real world solutions to many problems. I invariably get zero responses, and all the conservatives around here suffer amnesia, conveniently forget those posts and want me to repeat them an apparently infinite number of times.

On the other hand, when I use hyperbole or play the elitist snob character, I get a lot of responses, many of them quite telling about the conservative true beliefs (like this post of yours). By doing that, you reinforce my behavior; you give me what I want when I use hyperbole; so I continue. Why shouldn’t I?

If this was a televised debate I’d probably be more careful, since I could be turning away potential left-leaning voters; but here, clearly, only the people on the extremes stick around, and there’s really no chance in the world that anyone is going to change their voting preferences because of anything they read here… On the other hand, you give me so much ammo to use in wider audiences it would simply be stupid for me to stop provoking you.

As long as you keep reinforcing a behavior, that behavior will continue. Psych 101.

People laughed at Reagan. Where’s the USSR?

What kind of junior-highschool girl mentality is this? Foreign policy by popularity contest? Screw that. We CAN pick a fight and threaten every country that we don’t agree with.
[/quote]
Well, if we can pick a fight and threaten every country we don’t agree with, then why aren’t we doing it. What is stopping us from bombing Iran, N. Korea and so on.If we could, How come we don’t. I don’t think we have that powerful a military to fight 3 or 4 wars at a time.
Hell, we can’t win Iraq.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

BostonBarrister wrote:
I was reading James Lileks today, and he nailed it:

hspder wrote:
You call this “nailing it”?

Lileks basically spends a whole page talking about, well, nothing. No substance whatsoever. Just beating around the bush.

Pop quiz: what happened last time people started saying “Stop the alarmism – it’s not that bad. It’s not really fascism”?

The Reagan revolution?
(?Ronald Reagan must be the nicest president who ever destroyed a union and tried to cut school
lunch milk rations from six to four ounces . . . Ronald Reagan is tailored to the image of a
friendly fascist.? Robert Lekachman, economist)

The Goldwater Presidential campaign?
(?We see dangerous signs of Hitlerism in the Goldwater campaign.? Martin Luther King, Jr.)

The Bush Sr. presidency?
(I’d find a quote for this, but the internet is too flooded with quotes accusing W. Bush of fascism…)

Nixon?

Or perhaps Thatcherism in Britain?

Sorry if we don’t pay more attention to the liberals who cry “wolf.”

http://andrewhammel.typepad.com/german_joys/2006/08/godwins_law_sta.html

EXCERPT:

Let’s imagine what our world would look like if George W. Bush really were a Nazi.

First, to the foreign policy:

-Guantanamo Bay would, of course, exist. However, it would be receiving constant new shipments of people, because the initial residents would all long since be dead -- worked and starved to death, and then incinerated in crematoria or dumped in mass graves. Of course, no journalist or lawyer would be allowed on the premises. Except those who had criticized the Administration, and they would last no longer than the other prisoners.

-The new inmates from Guantanamo Bay -- and the dozens of other camps like it -- would have been swept up during raids in Iraq and Afghanistan, or in the United States. If they offered the slightest resistance, they would be shot on the spot. Once they were packed off into the transport planes, nobody would ever hear of them again. Their families would receive a postcard a few months later saying they "died in a work accident."

-Iraq and Afghanistan would be filled with large factories producing consumer goods and materiel for the American war effort. The workers would live in secure camps next to the factories, would work 12-15 hours a day for no wages, and would receive food rations well below what they required to stay in good health. I don't even need to mention that the oil would be shipped directly to the United States, and anyone who questioned why Iraqis were not being paid for it would be sent immediately to Guantanamo, if not simply executed on the spot.

-To deter insurgent attacks, the U.S. military would round up 50-100 civilians who lived near the site of any attack, line them up against a wall, shoot them. Their bodies would be allowed to rot in the sun for a few days to bring the message home, and then the U.S. military would announce the action and its justification in printed Arabic posters all over the city.

Now, to domestic affairs:

-Bush would be the unquestioned and absolute leader of the United States. There might still be a U.S. Congress, but it would be no more than a rubber-stamp, and a shift in power would be inconceivable. Bush would have a ruling philosophy called, let's say, Bushism. Under this philosophy, persons of Arab descent would be viewed as inferior and harmful to the human race. They would be locked away in ghettos just outside major U.S. cities; anyone who left the ghetto without authorization would be shot on sight by government guards. Their property, jobs, and all civil rights would be stripped of them. Eventually, all of them, without a single exception, would be shipped to death factories and incinerated. As at Auschwitz, the crematoria would be so busy that their chimneys would have to be regularly unclogged of human fat deposits.

-There would be no Democratic Party. It would be an illegal organization, and most of its leaders would be long dead. There would only be the Bush Republican Party. Anyone who sought serious career advancement would have to join it. The press, the military, the economic elite, writers, the legal profession, and even the medical profession would all be required to accept basic principles of Bushism. Although prominent professionals might have some leeway to timidly criticize the party line or refuse to take part in discrimination, most would not have this option. If they openly criticized Bush, they would at a minimum lose their jobs, and might well be shipped off to Guantanamo or some similar place, never to be heard from again.

-Any media outlet that criticized Bush's policies would promptly be shut down by a large, shadowy domestic security agency. Their presses and servers would be confiscated and destroyed by the government, and their editors shipped off to Guantanamo, probably after a brief show trial in which they confessed that they were traitors or spies who deserved nothing better. The public confessions would be secured by torture and threats against their remaining family members.

[/quote]

or he could declare, Mission Accomplished and continue to occupy a country that still doesn’t have wmd. and steal the oil that his cronies so desperatly want

This thread is priceless!

[quote]Skystud wrote:

People laughed at Reagan. Where’s the USSR?

What kind of junior-highschool girl mentality is this? Foreign policy by popularity contest? Screw that. We CAN pick a fight and threaten every country that we don’t agree with.

Well, if we can pick a fight and threaten every country we don’t agree with, then why aren’t we doing it. What is stopping us from bombing Iran, N. Korea and so on.If we could, How come we don’t. I don’t think we have that powerful a military to fight 3 or 4 wars at a time.
Hell, we can’t win Iraq.

[/quote]

Libs, like Hspder, don’t believe in objective standards of right and wrong. Those things, in his opinion, are determined by who has the biggest gang (this is rooted in his social metaphysic). Because there are no objective standards, according to the libs, one action is just as moral as any other action. In other words, they eliminate morality from the province of human life and relations become based upon POWER.

They are consequently surprised when the government THEY CREATED does things to which they object, forgetting that their dogma allows government to do what it wants, as long as the majority approves. Well, the senate and house voted for Iraq, but now the libs object. Why not?

They’re all just plain fucking crazy!

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Libs, like Hspder, don’t believe in objective standards of right and wrong. Those things, in his opinion, are determined by who has the biggest gang (this is rooted in his social metaphysic). Because there are no objective standards, according to the libs, one action is just as moral as any other action. In other words, they eliminate morality from the province of human life and relations become based upon POWER.

They are consequently surprised when the government THEY CREATED does things to which they object, forgetting that their dogma allows government to do what it wants, as long as the majority approves. Well, the senate and house voted for Iraq, but now the libs object. Why not?

They’re all just plain fucking crazy!
[/quote]

H2,

You are one twisted little puppy. You get told this from time to time from both liberals and republicans, so you might want to put some weight to it – there is bipartisan agreement on it.

And we know how rare that is these days, dont’ we?

Funny though, I’ve seen many republicans talk about might makes right, and how the US has the right to flex it’s might any way it wishes to mold the entire world to it’s view of right.

However, haven’t we done the moral relativism bullshit to death? Both the left and the right apply principles to situations in order to come to conclusions. Even you, in your own twisted way, apply your strange principles to the world, to come up with your funky pronouncements.

To pretend otherwise, for the purpose of vilifying those you disagree with, is just silly.

Well, then again, I guess I shouldn’t expect much better than silly around here – especially given the web of lies and deceipt that is being blown out of Washington across your land. Especially since people are soaking it all up like divine nectar.

Wake up fools, the siren has you in her thrall.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

Libs, like Hspder, don’t believe in objective standards of right and wrong. Those things, in his opinion, are determined by who has the biggest gang (this is rooted in his social metaphysic). Because there are no objective standards, according to the libs, one action is just as moral as any other action. In other words, they eliminate morality from the province of human life and relations become based upon POWER.

They are consequently surprised when the government THEY CREATED does things to which they object, forgetting that their dogma allows government to do what it wants, as long as the majority approves. Well, the senate and house voted for Iraq, but now the libs object. Why not?

They’re all just plain fucking crazy!

[/quote]

Hey, headhunter,
Everyone knows that congress voted for a war in Iraq. The problem is, the intel was wrong if not an outright lie. There never were wmd.
So now we are killing a lot of people for no damn reason for oil.

Bush and Cheney may call this a war for the freedom of Iraqi citizens or a fight against the terrorists, but the fact that we went there, defeated the Iraqi military, declared mission accomplished and are now staying is wrong. That is nation building and that is one thing Bush said he had no intention of doing before he was elected. He now just wants the oil. Words of mass deception.

Watched an interesting documentary on the History Channel about the history of Iraq, going back several thousand years. What a violent place! I wish our leaders had been more familiar with the history of the region. We’re going against thousands of years of engrained violent behaviour. Lotsa luck!

We’ll have to lobotomize into docility the people of the region, with nanotech. Keep working, science guys!! :slight_smile: