Count me in.
I’ve been waiting for the EFA supplement since TC first mentioned it in an Atomic Dog column. I didn’t realize there were any hangups with its release.
I agree with the others that an EFA supplement is included in my daily diet. If Biotest came out with a quality EFA supplement I wouldn’t mind spending some dough on it (within reason).
I don’t even bother with a multi right now because most companies seem to use the kitchen sink approach. To me it’s a waste of money. However, if Biotest released a multi I would definitley give it a try. It sounds like a good idea with splitting the pills up by morning, post workout, evening. I really like the idea of taking certain nutients, minerals, antioxidants pre & post workout. Right now all I do is take some vitamin C and E after workouts w/ my Surge.
Bottom line, I will give any supplement that Biotest releases a fair try. And if I don’t like it, I’ll try it again before givving up on it. Biotest is just that good.
I’m all for a super efa capsule. I also want a special vitamin and mineral for different times of the day. like one with a P+C meal and one with a P+F meal. I already take anti-oxidents like r-ala, grapeseed extract, olive leaf extract, green tea extract so taking these in cap form would be no problem. Besides buying more biotest products would make my supplement closet look cooler. laters pk
[quote]Atomic Dog wrote:
…As such, the preliminary formula we came up with involves a morning vitamin, a post-workout anti-oxidant, and a nighttime mineral formulation…
[/quote]
I pulled this idea off of the top of my head. You guys sound like you have already been thinking about this. Is that true?
Also, would the mineral formula have decent attachment groups (e.g. zinc aspartate is far superior to zinc oxide, etc.)? Let’s face it, the mineral absorption on damn-near all of the multiples is downright non-existent.
I would even be happy with ditching the minerals from the formula. Many of us take ZMA and chromium, anyhow. We don’t want iron. Calcium inhibits absorption of just about everything, plus we suck down pounds of caseinate and cottage cheese, weekly. Potassium, molybdenum, and copper are usually readily obtained dietarily. I’m almost thinking that sticking solely to vitamins and anti-oxidants might be the best route, unless you guys think of something really cool, which I will not put past you.
~Terumo
[quote]Atomic Dog wrote:
However, bodybuilders in general, particularly Biotest people, don’t mind taking pills. As such, the preliminary formula we came up with involves a morning vitamin, a post-workout anti-oxidant, and a nighttime mineral formulation.
Besides, there isn’t a single formulation aimed at strength athletes. Ours would be.
As far as our fish oil, we were able to achieve a concentration much higher in the desirable fatty acids than Barry Sears’ version.
[/quote
Fish Oil and Multi Vits are stapple supps that I always use. I would much rather get products from here, and support Biotest and this site. I am tired of giving my hard earned money to Sam’s Choice and GNC.
JOe
[quote]
Also, would the mineral formula have decent attachment groups (e.g. zinc aspartate is far superior to zinc oxide, etc.)? Let’s face it, the mineral absorption on damn-near all of the multiples is downright non-existent.
I would even be happy with ditching the minerals from the formula. Many of us take ZMA and chromium, anyhow. We don’t want iron. Calcium inhibits absorption of just about everything, plus we suck down pounds of caseinate and cottage cheese, weekly. Potassium, molybdenum, and copper are usually readily obtained dietarily. I’m almost thinking that sticking solely to vitamins and anti-oxidants might be the best route, unless you guys think of something really cool, which I will not put past you.
~Terumo[/quote]
how MINT are P450 enzymes? will you release your vittles with guidance on what to eat and when to eat it to allow optimum first pass metabolism?
on a seperate note…
I had my first pharmacokinetics lecture today!! what utter nugget came up with the name “pro hormone”? lay terms suck 
im going to tone my muscles and lose my cellulite. just kill me now?? 
[quote]Al168 wrote:
…how MINT are P450 enzymes? will you release your vittles with guidance on what to eat and when to eat it to allow optimum first pass metabolism?..
[/quote]
With all due respect, I cannot determine what the hell you are talking about. As I understand it, P450s are limited to a few metabolic processes including setting up microsomal oxidase systems for metabolizing toxins, regulating blood-heme concentrations, hydroxylating certain steroid hormones, and regulating NAD/FAD redoxes. I don’t really see the implication in mineral attachment groups, which is the issue on which you quoted me.
Maybe I’m missing something obvious, but I’m really in left field on this one.
Oh yeah… And best of luck with the PK class.
~Terumo
[quote] As I understand it, P450s are limited to a few metabolic processes including … metabolizing toxins …
~Terumo[/quote]
bugger, you could be right - Im a medic so all we were taught was drug metabolism which effectively is treated by the body as a toxin. but what you eat (drugs AND food) can (and sometimes very majorly) increase or decrease transcription of genes coding for metabolic enzymes in the liver… since we’re discussing various analogues of vitamins, I presumed they would be subject to first pass metabolism in the liver in a similar way, and so any changes in level of transcription of genes leading to change in the metabolic enzymes present could totally affect the dose (Q) necessary to cause the desired blood plasma concentration (Cp).
NOT TO MENTION how the analogue’s metabolism would be different to that of the ‘raw’ (not sure of the technical term sorry im only a first year have pity!) vitamin, IE: whether its hydrophilicity after phase II metabolism would be different affecting its diffusion across plasma membranes (since metabolism aims to make toxins more hydrophilic and thus increase rate of elimination) and thus affecting its apparant volume of distribution (Vd) which would affect the dose. so thats another way in which P450 enzyme inhibition could affect the dose.
ALL of what I just said could be bollocks of course, I’m treating vitamin analogues as drugs, ergo toxins, which might be totally wrong, if anyone knows better (I expect alot of you do) please please correct me/call me names/etc I dont mind learning 
So, with regards to Inhibitors of the P450 superfamily, grapefruit juice can MAJORLY inhibit a P450 enzyme that metabolises a specific drug, so the usual dose (after a glass’o’juice) would go unmetabolised at first pass and cause more side effects. The opposite, barbituates/sprouts/broccoli/ciggarete smoke can cause enzyme production, so some drugs would be rendered inneffective at their normal doses.
what a COOL way to revise!
whew.
ahem
correct me if I’m wrong.
I’ve been waiting for the EFA dha/epa supplement for a long time now. . . hopefully they will finally release it, or at least look into it more seriously now.
oh how i miss those Grow! bars too. . . 
Count me in as someone who would be glad to get more supps from Biotest. EFA and multi-vitamin would be great (especially if it/they came specially formulated for morning, post-workout, and evening–imagine a set of 3 bottles, or pre-sorted cellophane packs!).
[quote]Al168 wrote:
…NOT TO MENTION how the analogue’s metabolism would be different to that of the ‘raw’ (not sure of the technical term sorry im only a first year have pity!) vitamin, IE: whether its hydrophilicity after phase II metabolism would be different affecting its diffusion across plasma membranes (since metabolism aims to make toxins more hydrophilic and thus increase rate of elimination) and thus affecting its apparant volume of distribution (Vd) which would affect the dose. so thats another way in which P450 enzyme inhibition could affect the dose…I’m treating vitamin analogues as drugs, ergo toxins, which might be totally wrong…[/quote]
I see. You are making reference to keeping vitamins systemic in the opposite way that we eliminate toxins. Gotcha. In your original post, I thought you meant that by increasing P450 activity that we could extent the bioavailabilities of vitamins. I did not realize that you actually wanted to inhibit the activity.
Purely in theory, I think there might be a small problem with harnessing P450s. In doing that, we may allow for vitamins to have a greater life, in vivo. However, that would also make the body less efficient at oxidizing toxins. Would that be a fair trade-off?
Secondly, inhibiting the oxidation of vitamins would cause a problem in that redox reactions are the primary method of action for most cofactors. Those reactions that occur within or around the endoplasmic reticulum would seem to be inhibited by CytP450-BM3. It would also seem to inhibit NAD/FAD recduction pathways since 1)they are both derived from vitamins and 2)their redox reactions occur around the mitochondrial membranes.
Just wondering. Remember, I’m no biochemist.
~Terumo
I’ll weigh in with TShaw here, being from the same neck of the woods.
How about 3 bottles for the multi, and since you guys are so keen with printing on the actual pills, they could just be labeled with what time you take them. That way if you need to take it on the road, you can just put them all in the same place but not get them mixed up as to what time you take them.
RIT Jared
I see. You are making reference to keeping vitamins systemic in the opposite way that we eliminate toxins. Gotcha. In your original post, I thought you meant that by increasing P450 activity that we could extent the bioavailabilities of vitamins. I did not realize that you actually wanted to inhibit the activity.
Purely in theory, I think there might be a small problem with harnessing P450s. In doing that, we may allow for vitamins to have a greater life, in vivo. However, that would also make the body less efficient at oxidizing toxins. Would that be a fair trade-off?
Secondly, inhibiting the oxidation of vitamins would cause a problem in that redox reactions are the primary method of action for most cofactors. Those reactions that occur within or around the endoplasmic reticulum would seem to be inhibited by CytP450-BM3. It would also seem to inhibit NAD/FAD recduction pathways since 1)they are both derived from vitamins and 2)their redox reactions occur around the mitochondrial membranes.
Just wondering. Remember, I’m no biochemist.
~Terumo[/quote]
oh no, I only wanted to inhibit enzymatic activity if it increased bioavailability - if increasing activity had this affect (by producing a metabolite of the pro-drug that had a high oral bioavailability) then I’m up for that too!
and I like your point about the trade off - I guess that the analogue would have to be specific to a P450 sub family that was associated with modification of rare toxins - hmmm that sounds expensive!
I dont totally get your second point (im nice-but-dim) but i agree with it that it could have adverse affects - I was just wondering how to optimise enymatic activity for specific vitamin analogue bioavailability. hmmmm best administer an IV eh? 
im SO impressed that t-men know more than me 
not that I know alot. just its kinda cool that the people using this website seem damn clever.