De-Programming Children

[quote]AlisaV wrote:
I would give kids good, classic children’s books to read.

Obviously I’m not remotely a conservative, but if you’re concerned about old-fashioned values like personal responsibility, you can find it in classic children’s books. I was raised on them – the Narnia books, Peter Pan, The Water Babies, the E. Nesbit books. Mark Twain and Charles Dickens, maybe, if they’re good readers. And definitely T.H. White, The Once and Future King. It’s actually got a good take-down of communism, though it’s somewhat incidental.

And narrative history books – maybe Churchill’s history of England, but really any history. American history, certainly. I wish I’d known more of that growing up. I had essentially no history until the seventh grade, and then I was constantly in tears after class because I was moved by hearing about George Washington.

Getting kids in touch with the past probably makes them more used to holding themselves to high standards. That’s one thing that I think is bad about schools – they expect very little of children, and so if your only influence is school, you probably won’t turn out a success. Historical role models give a better sense of what to aspire to.[/quote]

I’ll probably go ahead and agree with Push when he recommends C.S. Lewis. Tolkien also. I would probably recommend Dostoevsky to teenagers as well.

[quote]AlisaV wrote:

Getting kids in touch with the past probably makes them more used to holding themselves to high standards. That’s one thing that I think is bad about schools – they expect very little of children, and so if your only influence is school, you probably won’t turn out a success. Historical role models give a better sense of what to aspire to.[/quote]

Alisa, I like what you said about holding kids to high standards!! Excellent point. I don’t agree w/ the generalization about all schools holding kids to low standards (of course there will be exceptions), but this seems to be a common attitude with many parents. In many cases, the parents tell their children this, and bingo, the kid has an instant attitude against school, and they perform accordingly. Have you ever heard the saying, “Your ATTITUDE determines your ALTITUDE”?

And yes, school should NOT be a child’s only influence. Parents have to hold their children to high standards, as you said. Parents have a lot more influence than they think, especially in the teen years. This is when they need their parents for guidance the most, and this is when many parents just throw up their hands and say “whatever”. Kids NEED positive role models to help them to be successful in life.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Anyone who says, “I refuse to instill my values in my children…instead I will hope no one else does either and I will trust that my children will come up with their own values completely on their own and without my guidance,” is a fool. A stark, nakedly stupid fool.[/quote]

Very true indeed. Did you consciously try to instill values in them - or did they absorb that by simply being around you? Or both? [/quote]

Both.[/quote]

Push, that’s awesome. That’s why I keep saying parents have the biggest influence on their children. They’re little sponges when they’re young.

BTW, kudos to you for homeschooling your kids! I’m no expert on homeschooling, so please allow me to pick your brain :slight_smile: As a parent, if I were to homeschool my child, I would wonder if my child will lack when it comes to the social aspect in their lives. You know, their opportunity to interact with other children of all ages. (Okay, I would not be concerned for MY kids since I’m a social butterfly lol, but in my profession, I do get asked once in a while about homeschooling, even though this is not my area of expertise). I know you’re no wallflower yourself haha, so I have no doubt that your children have plenty of social skills. I would love to know, since you can tell me first-hand, how your children felt about being homeschooled, and how they reacted socially and academically when they went to high school, after being homeschooled all their lives. Thanks, I appreciate any info you can pass on to me :slight_smile:

I don’t know about Push, but I have a friend from Wisconsin (an extremely intelligent and well-educated woman) who was homeschooled.

What her family did was organize with other families. They hired a bus and a driver. And they recruited whatever particular talent the parents had. So, one whole day was spent at House A - where all of them spoke nothing but French, studied French history, etc. The next day was spent at House B and the whole day was spent on mathematics. The parents - unlike so many teachers - we passionate about their subjects; and the children got a wide variety of adults to be around; as well as the other children.

Of course, not everyone has the means or is otherwise equipped to do this - still, it’s a pretty good solution for many I’d think.

It’s worth noting that the Harvard valedictorian is nearly always a “home-schooled” student before arriving at Harvard.

Oh wow, so they ran their own little “mini school”. How cool is that?! I love the way everyone pulled together like that to provide such a unique opportunity for their children :slight_smile: Thanks for the info, katzenjammer. Also, I didn’t know that about Harvard valedictorians… interesting. However, I thought a child had to be in some sort of high school in order to have the kind of “official” transcripts that are required by colleges and universities. How would a child who is homeschooled through high school be able to provide a transcript?

[quote]Hot Tamale wrote:
Oh wow, so they ran their own little “mini school”. How cool is that?! I love the way everyone pulled together like that to provide such a unique opportunity for their children :slight_smile: Thanks for the info, katzenjammer. Also, I didn’t know that about Harvard valedictorians… interesting. However, I thought a child had to be in some sort of high school in order to have the kind of “official” transcripts that are required by colleges and universities. How would a child who is homeschooled through high school be able to provide a transcript?[/quote]

You know, I have no idea how that works - but it must somehow.

A few years back, I remember seeing a profile of a student who was going to one of the big Ivy schools (Princeton, I think); he had a rather unusual background: his parents, it seems, were sailing enthusiasts, and he spent his entire childhood sailing around the world, with only his parents and sister as regular companions. And yet, he somehow received a stellar education.

So even in an “extreme” situation like that, a well-prepared student is able to win an admission place.

[quote]Hot Tamale wrote:
Oh wow, so they ran their own little “mini school”. How cool is that?! I love the way everyone pulled together like that to provide such a unique opportunity for their children :slight_smile: Thanks for the info, katzenjammer. [/quote]

Self organizing! That’s what always made this country so great. A fact not lost on Monsieur DeTocqueville.

[quote]Hot Tamale wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]Hot Tamale wrote:
I know for a fact that teachers are not ALLOWED to talk about politics to their students, unless of course they are teaching that particular curriculum. During the elections, teachers are also not allowed to discuss their own personal views about any candidates, the pros and cons of one candidate or another, or their views about the result of an election. This is probably why DMaddox got an apology from the teacher. So, if they are being “brainwashed” in school, as you say, then maybe you should bring this up with the school.

As for MarvelGirl, I sense your sarcasm, and your post is funny, but I do hope that every parent teaches their children to actually respect their teachers. It all starts at home, and parents are the most influential voices in a child’s life… not their teachers. A teacher spends less time with your children than their parents and their own friends do. A teacher’s job is difficult enough, without having to deal with disrespectful, arrogant children, no matter what age.

Children watch what their parents and other adults who are role models in their lives do. They imitate the behavior of adults, and repeat what they hear. As they get older, they imitate the behavior of their peers and friends. You can help to guide your own children, and your nephews and nieces. Monitor who they hang out with, and be vigilant of WHO you expose them to, and behaviors of your own that you expose them to. Teach them respect and to take responsibility for their own actions. Teach them the difference between right and wrong, and like the others said, teach them to think for themselves. You can’t control what they will think and do, but you can give them a strong foundation to make the best decisions for themselves.[/quote]

I agree with all of this post EXCEPT “monitor who they hang out with”. As parents we want our kids to hang out with good kids so we have an instinct to try to push our kids in that direction. The fact is we don’t have any control and any influence we try to exert over our children’s choices will likely create unhealthy friction between the friends.

The best we can do is raise our children to be good friends and good influences on their friends. The type of children who are not followers but will lead the group into wholesome entertainment.[/quote]

Hey On Edge, I appreciate your feedback. I totally understand where you’re coming from, so let me clarify. By monitor, I meant know who they hang out with, and that includes when and where… more like oversee and supervise. I didn’t say “control”. But let me tell you, we DO have influence on who they hang out with. I don’t recommend telling them who they can and cannot hang out with, but if we have healthy relationships with our children, we can convey to them our opinions and guide them, without causing friction. Of course, there will sometimes be cases when this causes friction, but that’s part of parenting, and you have to deal with it. But really, we are the parents, and ultimately we are responsible for our children, and have the right to know who they are with at all times. And we should voice our opinions, regardless of what they think of it. It’s called communication… an incredibly important dynamic in a parent-child relationship.

For example, with teenagers, if you see your child hanging out with someone who is detrimental to their well being, as their parent, it’s your job to keep them safe, and you should intervene, regardless of the friction you cause between them or between you and your child. Some parents think they have to tread lightly so as not to alienate their children, and yes, I agree that no one wants that. But the parents who keep a WATCHFUL but not controlling eye on their children will raise children who know their limits, and if you have children, you must know this is true. Anyway, I agree with you in that we don’t want to try to control them, and that we want them to be good influences on other people’s children. :)[/quote]

I’m not talking about parent-child friction at all, that’s life. I’m talking about the friction, maybe subtle, between the children. I would agree with you in the extreme cases where kids might get into criminal behavior, but I think for the masses that’s not the issue. If this is not the point of view you are coming from, I’d say your coming from a point of view of unrealistic idealism.

I’m sure when you were young your parents never told you they didn’t like any of your friends and not to play with them. I know this because you clearly don’t have the perspective of someone who has. In my case, there were only two other kids in the neighborhood. One of them was kind of a thug and my mom didn’t like him and me playing with him or being around his family. Her idealism. In reality, I was going to go out and play and he was there. If I listened to my mom I would have had no friends because he was going to play with our other friend. So, I have to tell my friend my parents don’t like him and that’s why he can’t come over and why I don’t want my parents to see us together. I hope I don’t have to tell you this is a screwed up unhealthy dynamic.

The best parents can do is raise their children to make the right choices in life.

I see where you’re coming from, and yes I agree. My 10-year-old son has a couple of friends that I’m not crazy about, especially when I fast-forward 5 years, and think… oh boy. But I never tell him he can’t play with them, and they both come over to play often. I have hopefully raised him (so far) to make good decisions, but I am there to offer advice when needed, and I do keep tabs on him when he’s with those particular boys.

Agree 100% with your last statement. Good stuff.

[quote]on edge wrote:

I’m not talking about parent-child friction at all, that’s life. I’m talking about the friction, maybe subtle, between the children. I would agree with you in the extreme cases where kids might get into criminal behavior, but I think for the masses that’s not the issue. If this is not the point of view you are coming from, I’d say your coming from a point of view of unrealistic idealism.

I’m sure when you were young your parents never told you they didn’t like any of your friends and not to play with them. I know this because you clearly don’t have the perspective of someone who has. In my case, there were only two other kids in the neighborhood. One of them was kind of a thug and my mom didn’t like him and me playing with him or being around his family. Her idealism. In reality, I was going to go out and play and he was there. If I listened to my mom I would have had no friends because he was going to play with our other friend. So, I have to tell my friend my parents don’t like him and that’s why he can’t come over and why I don’t want my parents to see us together. I hope I don’t have to tell you this is a screwed up unhealthy dynamic.

The best parents can do is raise their children to make the right choices in life.
[/quote]

I see where you’re coming from, and yes I agree. My 10-year-old son has a couple of friends that I’m not crazy about, especially when I fast-forward 5 years, and think… oh boy. But I never tell him he can’t play with them, and they both come over to play often. I have hopefully raised him (so far) to make good decisions, but I am there to offer advice when needed, and I do keep tabs on him when he’s with those particular boys.

Agree 100% with your last statement. Good stuff.

I can’t speak for the whole state, but I know where I’m at in Idaho some parents homeschool and have their kids play on the sports/drama teams of the public school.

Re: books, I would recommend giving your kid the Heinlein juvenile series books. After there there are books like Hatchet or My Brother Sam is Dead.

mike

My oldest was in private school until sixth grade, now he is in public school (8th grade). My youngest is being home schooled. I asked my oldest if he wanted to switch to home school and he told me he’d rather be in school with other kids. He is an honor roll student, so I felt that as long as he demonstrated the responsibility of keeping his grades up I would respect what he wanted. (also, he is much older than his brother, so the curriculum would have been a lot more time consuming).

Many of you are probably wondering about the arrangement. I am divorced and I have joint custody of my kids and she has primary physical custody, although they do spend a lot of time with me.

I have found that as a part time dad, it is critical for me to make sure that I not only spend quality time, but that I go the extra mile to teach them about life. (as I am writing this, my youngest just spilled a glass of juice all over the floor and is cleaning it up by himself). So I very rarely take them to the movies or the zoo, instead I take advantage of many of the museums and historical places here in Washington. Many of my visits are scheduled around a “lesson” or showing them a point or perspective about something. I see them both together and individually, as the younger one sometimes isn’t ready for the lessons I’m helping the older one learn.

My proudest moment as a father was last year when my oldest was in the bathroom as school and witnessed another older kid bullying a younger kid. So he just stepped in between them. He didn’t hit anyone, but he didn’t back down either. He just stopped it. And when it was over, he didn’t go run and tell, he just went about his business. The other kid told the teacher what happened, and there was a “conference” about it, but I was very proud that my son intervened yet showed restraint. It all worked out in the end. To me, that tells me that I’m on the right track with my parenting strategy.

There’s been a lot of good advice given here, and I have to agree with push about instilling values in your children and not just leaving it to chance or trusting “the system” to do it for you. Character and integrity don’t build themselves. HT has made some fantastic points as well.

To answer the OP’s question, I’ve found that limiting the exposure to television and encouraging reading cuts down on a lot of the “brainwashing” that goes on. My kids are allowed a two to one ratio of books to television (and I approve the shows and the books, of course) and this is AFTER school requirements are met. They also play sports two seasons out of the year, what ever they want as well as one instrument when they are not playing sports (my oldest has gone from piano to violin to sax, the youngest is still banging on the piano). They are also in Boy Scouts (tiger cubs for the youngest).

To be honest, I am the luckiest man in the world to have the kids I’ve got. They are both smart, strong, tall and show good character. They will be outstanding Men when I am through - I take that responsibility VERY seriously. And they are both EXTREMELY handsome! LOL

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
My oldest was in private school until sixth grade, now he is in public school (8th grade). My youngest is being home schooled. I asked my oldest if he wanted to switch to home school and he told me he’d rather be in school with other kids. He is an honor roll student, so I felt that as long as he demonstrated the responsibility of keeping his grades up I would respect what he wanted. (also, he is much older than his brother, so the curriculum would have been a lot more time consuming).

Many of you are probably wondering about the arrangement. I am divorced and I have joint custody of my kids and she has primary physical custody, although they do spend a lot of time with me.

I have found that as a part time dad, it is critical for me to make sure that I not only spend quality time, but that I go the extra mile to teach them about life. (as I am writing this, my youngest just spilled a glass of juice all over the floor and is cleaning it up by himself). So I very rarely take them to the movies or the zoo, instead I take advantage of many of the museums and historical places here in Washington. Many of my visits are scheduled around a “lesson” or showing them a point or perspective about something. I see them both together and individually, as the younger one sometimes isn’t ready for the lessons I’m helping the older one learn.

My proudest moment as a father was last year when my oldest was in the bathroom as school and witnessed another older kid bullying a younger kid. So he just stepped in between them. He didn’t hit anyone, but he didn’t back down either. He just stopped it. And when it was over, he didn’t go run and tell, he just went about his business. The other kid told the teacher what happened, and there was a “conference” about it, but I was very proud that my son intervened yet showed restraint. It all worked out in the end. To me, that tells me that I’m on the right track with my parenting strategy.

There’s been a lot of good advice given here, and I have to agree with push about instilling values in your children and not just leaving it to chance or trusting “the system” to do it for you. Character and integrity don’t build themselves. HT has made some fantastic points as well.

To answer the OP’s question, I’ve found that limiting the exposure to television and encouraging reading cuts down on a lot of the “brainwashing” that goes on. My kids are allowed a two to one ratio of books to television (and I approve the shows and the books, of course) and this is AFTER school requirements are met. They also play sports two seasons out of the year, what ever they want as well as one instrument when they are not playing sports (my oldest has gone from piano to violin to sax, the youngest is still banging on the piano). They are also in Boy Scouts (tiger cubs for the youngest).

To be honest, I am the luckiest man in the world to have the kids I’ve got. They are both smart, strong, tall and show good character. They will be outstanding Men when I am through - I take that responsibility VERY seriously. And they are both EXTREMELY handsome! LOL[/quote]

Bravo.[/quote]

Push and AC: I have one word for BOTH of you… OUTSTANDING!!!
I am extremely impressed with everything you two have said. :slight_smile: Now I know a little more about each of you, and I have a lot of respect for what you have accomplished with your children. Thank you so much for sharing. I learn something new every day, and it’s especially great when it’s something so positive and inspiring! And I don’t doubt that both of you have very good looking children (the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree) :slight_smile:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
I just focus on teaching my daughter to ask questions and think for herself. I don’t need to instil my ideology on her, I don’t worry about the school instilling their ideology on her. I am confident that she will grow up to work things out for herself.[/quote]

Naivete.[/quote]

Not at all. What is Naive is assuming that you have all the answers and can drill your child to think like you do. More likely they will rebel against you and end up with opposing opinions. Possibly they humour you when you go on one of your old man rants over thanksgiving dinner but it doesn’t mean they are not laughing at your outmoded views behind your back.[/quote]

You won’t see me talk like this very often here so take special note when I say you are a stupid man here on T-Nation.

I’ve raised two children to adulthood. You haven’t. Shut up and listen once in awhile.

My kids are readily available for “inspection” by anyone who wants to visit me and for those here on T-Nation who have already met them.[/quote]

Listen, just because I am not quite as over the hill as you doesn’t mean I don’t have kids.

Also, way to stick your hat in the cap, I was referring to my father who I never bother to argue about politics with because he is so fixed in his views there is no point. He probably thinks I share his views (some of them I do, some of them I don’t, fortunately my mother, instead of forcing her views on me took the time to ensure that I was learning critical thinking.)

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Anyone who says, “I refuse to instill my values in my children…instead I will hope no one else does either and I will trust that my children will come up with their own values completely on their own (and they will be good ones, I’m sure) and without my guidance,” is a fool. A stark, nakedly stupid fool.[/quote]

It is not about hoping, it is also not about leaving your kids devoid of values.

There are certain basic values that it is important to instill in kids, mainly they revolve around having respect for yourself and treating others with respect. Everything else pretty much flows from there as long as you understand to question dogma and look for the profit.

[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Anyone who says, “I refuse to instill my values in my children…instead I will hope no one else does either and I will trust that my children will come up with their own values completely on their own (and they will be good ones, I’m sure) and without my guidance,” is a fool. A stark, nakedly stupid fool.[/quote]

So did you give your kids your religion?
Did you give your kids your political party?

Did you sell your beliefs and values as “Truths” or did you let them know you could be wrong?

just wondering.
Instilling your own values/beliefs into your children can be good thing or a bad thing. It depends on You.

Personally, I was a blank slate till college. My parents were pretty hands-off. And I thank them for it. I turned out good :)[/quote]

Exactly

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Anyone who says, “I refuse to instill my values in my children…instead I will hope no one else does either and I will trust that my children will come up with their own values completely on their own (and they will be good ones, I’m sure) and without my guidance,” is a fool. A stark, nakedly stupid fool.[/quote]

So did you give your kids your religion?
Did you give your kids your political party?[/quote]

How does one do this?[quote]

Did you sell your beliefs and values as “Truths” [/quote]

I’m not sure those things are commodities that can be bought and sold.[quote]

or did you let them know you could be wrong?[/quote]

Yes, I remember telling them many times, “Kids, I believe murder, rape, theft, fraud and dishonesty are all wrong…but then again I could be wrong so you’d better think long and hard and come up with your own views.”[quote]

just wondering.[/quote]

No, you weren’t wondering anything of the sort. You made a lame attempt to be clever.[quote]

Instilling your own values/beliefs into your children can be good thing or a bad thing. It depends on You. [/quote]

[Insert Cap’n Obvious comment][quote]

Personally, I was a blank slate till college. [/quote]

Look, I already did something I rarely do here on TN, I called someone a stupid man today. Don’t make me do it twice in one day.[quote]

…I turned out good :)[/quote]

If you do say so yourself?
[/quote]

Typical Push response, someone hits close to the bone and instead of answering the question you make a snide sarcastic point. Then you switch to being patronising.