De-Programming Children

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Let’s start by not programming them to believe nonsensical fairy tales about space genies and angels.[/quote]

You of all people haven’t been there and done that and don’t have the t-shirt. You are the punk ass, whiny 150 lbs. bitch boy on the Bodybuilding Forum telling Professor X how to bulk when it comes to this subject.

You are lost in space and your opinion isn’t even worth twopence.[/quote]

And you believe the written word of the bible to be an unquestionably true statement of history (if I am not mistaken, if I am, I apologise)

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]AlisaV wrote:
I would give kids good, classic children’s books to read.

Obviously I’m not remotely a conservative, but if you’re concerned about old-fashioned values like personal responsibility, you can find it in classic children’s books. I was raised on them – the Narnia books, Peter Pan, The Water Babies, the E. Nesbit books. Mark Twain and Charles Dickens, maybe, if they’re good readers. And definitely T.H. White, The Once and Future King. It’s actually got a good take-down of communism, though it’s somewhat incidental.

And narrative history books – maybe Churchill’s history of England, but really any history. American history, certainly. I wish I’d known more of that growing up. I had essentially no history until the seventh grade, and then I was constantly in tears after class because I was moved by hearing about George Washington.

Getting kids in touch with the past probably makes them more used to holding themselves to high standards. That’s one thing that I think is bad about schools – they expect very little of children, and so if your only influence is school, you probably won’t turn out a success. Historical role models give a better sense of what to aspire to.[/quote]

I’ll probably go ahead and agree with Push when he recommends C.S. Lewis. Tolkien also. I would probably recommend Dostoevsky to teenagers as well.[/quote]

You will get no arguments from me either on those book choices. I would throw Golding and Rosemary Sutcliffe in there as well.

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
My oldest was in private school until sixth grade, now he is in public school (8th grade). My youngest is being home schooled. I asked my oldest if he wanted to switch to home school and he told me he’d rather be in school with other kids. He is an honor roll student, so I felt that as long as he demonstrated the responsibility of keeping his grades up I would respect what he wanted. (also, he is much older than his brother, so the curriculum would have been a lot more time consuming).

Many of you are probably wondering about the arrangement. I am divorced and I have joint custody of my kids and she has primary physical custody, although they do spend a lot of time with me.

I have found that as a part time dad, it is critical for me to make sure that I not only spend quality time, but that I go the extra mile to teach them about life. (as I am writing this, my youngest just spilled a glass of juice all over the floor and is cleaning it up by himself). So I very rarely take them to the movies or the zoo, instead I take advantage of many of the museums and historical places here in Washington. Many of my visits are scheduled around a “lesson” or showing them a point or perspective about something. I see them both together and individually, as the younger one sometimes isn’t ready for the lessons I’m helping the older one learn.

My proudest moment as a father was last year when my oldest was in the bathroom as school and witnessed another older kid bullying a younger kid. So he just stepped in between them. He didn’t hit anyone, but he didn’t back down either. He just stopped it. And when it was over, he didn’t go run and tell, he just went about his business. The other kid told the teacher what happened, and there was a “conference” about it, but I was very proud that my son intervened yet showed restraint. It all worked out in the end. To me, that tells me that I’m on the right track with my parenting strategy.

There’s been a lot of good advice given here, and I have to agree with push about instilling values in your children and not just leaving it to chance or trusting “the system” to do it for you. Character and integrity don’t build themselves. HT has made some fantastic points as well.

To answer the OP’s question, I’ve found that limiting the exposure to television and encouraging reading cuts down on a lot of the “brainwashing” that goes on. My kids are allowed a two to one ratio of books to television (and I approve the shows and the books, of course) and this is AFTER school requirements are met. They also play sports two seasons out of the year, what ever they want as well as one instrument when they are not playing sports (my oldest has gone from piano to violin to sax, the youngest is still banging on the piano). They are also in Boy Scouts (tiger cubs for the youngest).

To be honest, I am the luckiest man in the world to have the kids I’ve got. They are both smart, strong, tall and show good character. They will be outstanding Men when I am through - I take that responsibility VERY seriously. And they are both EXTREMELY handsome! LOL[/quote]

For God’s sake, Chicken, take your kids to the zoo or a ball game or a movie. Life lessons can be learned anywhere you don’t have to drag your poor kids to the museum. Are you kidding? I swear, if either of your kids ask, I will help them kick your ass.

[quote]Hot Tamale wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Anyone who says, “I refuse to instill my values in my children…instead I will hope no one else does either and I will trust that my children will come up with their own values completely on their own and without my guidance,” is a fool. A stark, nakedly stupid fool.[/quote]

Very true indeed. Did you consciously try to instill values in them - or did they absorb that by simply being around you? Or both? [/quote]

Both.[/quote]

Push, that’s awesome. That’s why I keep saying parents have the biggest influence on their children. They’re little sponges when they’re young.

BTW, kudos to you for homeschooling your kids! I’m no expert on homeschooling, so please allow me to pick your brain :slight_smile: As a parent, if I were to homeschool my child, I would wonder if my child will lack when it comes to the social aspect in their lives. You know, their opportunity to interact with other children of all ages. (Okay, I would not be concerned for MY kids since I’m a social butterfly lol, but in my profession, I do get asked once in a while about homeschooling, even though this is not my area of expertise). I know you’re no wallflower yourself haha, so I have no doubt that your children have plenty of social skills. I would love to know, since you can tell me first-hand, how your children felt about being homeschooled, and how they reacted socially and academically when they went to high school, after being homeschooled all their lives. Thanks, I appreciate any info you can pass on to me :)[/quote]

I seem to remember reading several studies that children´s peers hold a higher influence than school teachers or parents (though the degrees obviously vary on a case by case basis.)

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
My oldest was in private school until sixth grade, now he is in public school (8th grade). My youngest is being home schooled. I asked my oldest if he wanted to switch to home school and he told me he’d rather be in school with other kids. He is an honor roll student, so I felt that as long as he demonstrated the responsibility of keeping his grades up I would respect what he wanted. (also, he is much older than his brother, so the curriculum would have been a lot more time consuming).

Many of you are probably wondering about the arrangement. I am divorced and I have joint custody of my kids and she has primary physical custody, although they do spend a lot of time with me.

I have found that as a part time dad, it is critical for me to make sure that I not only spend quality time, but that I go the extra mile to teach them about life. (as I am writing this, my youngest just spilled a glass of juice all over the floor and is cleaning it up by himself). So I very rarely take them to the movies or the zoo, instead I take advantage of many of the museums and historical places here in Washington. Many of my visits are scheduled around a “lesson” or showing them a point or perspective about something. I see them both together and individually, as the younger one sometimes isn’t ready for the lessons I’m helping the older one learn.

My proudest moment as a father was last year when my oldest was in the bathroom as school and witnessed another older kid bullying a younger kid. So he just stepped in between them. He didn’t hit anyone, but he didn’t back down either. He just stopped it. And when it was over, he didn’t go run and tell, he just went about his business. The other kid told the teacher what happened, and there was a “conference” about it, but I was very proud that my son intervened yet showed restraint. It all worked out in the end. To me, that tells me that I’m on the right track with my parenting strategy.

There’s been a lot of good advice given here, and I have to agree with push about instilling values in your children and not just leaving it to chance or trusting “the system” to do it for you. Character and integrity don’t build themselves. HT has made some fantastic points as well.

To answer the OP’s question, I’ve found that limiting the exposure to television and encouraging reading cuts down on a lot of the “brainwashing” that goes on. My kids are allowed a two to one ratio of books to television (and I approve the shows and the books, of course) and this is AFTER school requirements are met. They also play sports two seasons out of the year, what ever they want as well as one instrument when they are not playing sports (my oldest has gone from piano to violin to sax, the youngest is still banging on the piano). They are also in Boy Scouts (tiger cubs for the youngest).

To be honest, I am the luckiest man in the world to have the kids I’ve got. They are both smart, strong, tall and show good character. They will be outstanding Men when I am through - I take that responsibility VERY seriously. And they are both EXTREMELY handsome! LOL[/quote]

For God’s sake, Chicken, take your kids to the zoo or a ball game or a movie. Life lessons can be learned anywhere you don’t have to drag your poor kids to the museum. Are you kidding? I swear, if either of your kids ask, I will help them kick your ass.[/quote]

Oh, I do - I was more speaking of the movies and how I spend the MAJORITY of my time with them. They are both Caps fans, I was at the game with them last year when OV scored a hat trick and everyone started throwing their hats onto the ice! And we do the Washington Zoo and Baltimore Aquarium several times a year. Believe me, dude - my kids LOVE hanging out with me, even at the museum. My oldest used to go to Rugby games with me - I’d be carrying him on my shoulders and he’d be handing out refreshments…

Two years ago, my son went back to school after summer break and the first assignment was to make a “front page” newspaper with various articles about how you spent your summer, etc… And one of the sections was, ‘who is your hero?’ I was the only Dad to make the front page! Believe me, I GOT this…

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]AlisaV wrote:
I would give kids good, classic children’s books to read.

Obviously I’m not remotely a conservative, but if you’re concerned about old-fashioned values like personal responsibility, you can find it in classic children’s books. I was raised on them – the Narnia books…[/quote]

You might want to be careful recommending anything written by C.S. Lewis, Alisa. He is as “Christian” as they come. In fact, he might just be classified as the greatest Christian apologist of all time. And his children’s books are rife with Christian imagery.

That being said, I agree with everything you wrote and I was just giving you a hard time because I like you. I respect your intellect too.[/quote]

I know you weren’t being entirely serious, but I do think this is an important issue; I was raised singing hymns, visiting churches, learning about religions and cultures around the world, and reading books by CS Lewis and probably many other religious authors, as well as reading the Bible. I think (for me) these are more cultural than religious though, and it’s important to have a broad understanding of culture.

All those things I mentioned have great cultural significance which any child would be impoverished to be ignorant of. Sort of stating the obvious, but there you go.

I doubt I can contribute much more to this discussion, not being a parent myself!

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
I just focus on teaching my daughter to ask questions and think for herself. I don’t need to instil my ideology on her, I don’t worry about the school instilling their ideology on her. I am confident that she will grow up to work things out for herself.[/quote]

Naivete.[/quote]

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Hot Tamale wrote:
Children watch what their parents and other adults who are role models in their lives do. They imitate the behavior of adults, and repeat what they hear. As they get older, they imitate the behavior of their peers and friends. You can help to guide your own children, and your nephews and nieces. Monitor who they hang out with, and be vigilant of WHO you expose them to, and behaviors of your own that you expose them to. Teach them respect and to take responsibility for their own actions. Teach them the difference between right and wrong, and like the others said, teach them to think for themselves. You can’t control what they will think and do, but you can give them a strong foundation to make the best decisions for themselves.[/quote]

Excellent post.[/quote]

I take it that you just don’t like Cockney Blue,push.

[quote]Boomhower113 wrote:
I always liked this scenario for kids:

You, talking to kid: “Let’s say that you work hard in school, do all your homework on time, attend every class, study hard, do the extra credit assignments, etc.”

Kid: “OK”

You: “…and Jimmy is in your class. Jimmy skips school, talks back to the teacher, doesn’t do his homework, and is generally stupid.”

Kid: “OK”

You: “So you get a 100 in the class and Jimmy gets a 60.”

Kid: “That sounds fair.”

You: “I agree. But, if your teacher is a socialist, you will both get an 80 in order to ‘spread the wealth’ How does that sound?”

That seems to be a good way to put it at a kids level.[/quote]

It is a good way to put it, but unfortunately, it would be incorrect. I believe we’ve had this discussion before. Socialists do not wish to take from productive people and give to idle people. This happens already under capitalism. Rather, we stand for the opposite.

It does seem odd to me that none of the right-wing intellectuals here have any interest in correcting their own skewed notions of socialism. If they really are so objective, and the facts really are on their side, why are they so afraid of an honest debate?

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Socialists do not wish to take from productive people and give to idle people. This happens already under capitalism. Rather, we stand for the opposite.[/quote]

How can you call for an “honest debate” - when at the same time you make utterly absurd claims like this^^?

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

It is a good way to put it, but unfortunately, it would be incorrect. I believe we’ve had this discussion before. Socialists do not wish to take from productive people and give to idle people. This happens already under capitalism. Rather, we stand for the opposite.[/quote]

You stand for the opposite? You stand for taking from idle people and give to productive people?

No one is afraid of an honest debate. And while I don’t consider myself a “right wing intellectual,” I can sum up socialism/communism in four words:

“You work, I eat.”

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Socialists do not wish to take from productive people and give to idle people. This happens already under capitalism. Rather, we stand for the opposite.[/quote]

How can you call for an “honest debate” - when at the same time you make utterly absurd claims like this^^?

[/quote]Take a few hits of what he’s smokin’ and you’ll be able to understand him better.
[/quote]

"Dear Radio Moscow,
"What is the difference between capitalism and communism?
“Signed, A Listener”

"Dear Listener,
"Under capitalism it is dog-eat-dog.
"But under communism, it is just the opposite!
“Radio Moscow”

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

I take it that you just don’t like Cockney Blue,push. [/quote]

I will pay him one compliment…he is one of the smartest guys I’ve ever met who doesn’t know much.[/quote]

LOL, the only things we are really wide apart on are guns and religion. The guns thing I have already said comes from growing up in very different places and having very different influences.

I even think the bible for the most part teaches very good values and have no problem with using it in teaching alongside Greek Mythology and books like Aesop’s Fables.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

I take it that you just don’t like Cockney Blue,push. [/quote]

I will pay him one compliment…he is one of the smartest guys I’ve ever met who doesn’t know much.[/quote]

LOL, the only things we are really wide apart on are guns and religion…[/quote]

That alone places us in different hemispheres.
[/quote]
fair enough

A little intellectual honesty on this:

"It is a commonplace among persons of conservative views that the radicals of the 1960s have managed to infiltrate and take over much of the nationâ??s collegiate faculty, at least in the humanities. From their position of academic authority these now-aging pinks and reds have been inculcating their students with a variety of leftist and even revolutionary opinions. If this is trueâ??and it doesnâ??t take very many Ward Churchills to make it seem soâ??then what more natural reaction could there be than to try to inoculate those students before they arrive on campus?

â??Academia is skewed too far to the left,â?? says one member of the board. That, for him and for his fellows, is a fact, as certain as sunrise and as immune to disproof as the Pythagorean theorem. â??America is a racist imperialist power,â?? says (let us imagine) a William Ayers, and that, for him and his fellows, is equally a fact.

Of course, they are not facts, either one of those statements. They are judgments, in support or denial of which actual facts might be adduced. But they feel like facts to their proponents. Hereâ??s the thing about facts: Once ascertained and fixed in mind, they can be filed away (or kept ready for quick reference, like Post-it notes stuck up on some mental wall) and never reexamined. They are comfortably established as the indivisible, incontrovertible atoms of all future discourse, little logical Legos. Who would be so foolish as to label his pet belief an opinion when, with a little persistence, he can get it into the fray armored as a fact?"