Not yet, but I am going to be seeing my doctor soon to start NDT (Nature-Throid) in the next month or so. Your labs were pretty much identical to mine and we were both on the lower end of free t4, which I believe is the main hormone for libido/erectile function.
main hormone is a bit of a stretch but we all know thyroid contributes to proper sexual function.
If i get my free t4 from 1.1-1.3 or 1.4 I’m right at mid range which is where it should be. i used to have higher t4 levels but as soon as i started to get more consistent on test, my thyroid started converting more and i had a little lower t4 than normal.
If i leave it alone, i wonder if things become optimized there.
I’m just gonna take @dextermorgan & @sublimeprince32 advice and chill, reevaluate around April/May. I’m in no rush to take thyroid hormones.
If there are any hormonal deficiencies, they should become evident after 3-4 months of the exact same protocol.
Plus i did have the honeymoon phase. I did have a period or 2 when things started to get better but i didn’t wait it out for various reasons, so that makes me think my thyroid just may be alright in the end.
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I was clinical hypothyroid and started Armour Thyroid about 1 year ago. Taking 150mg (2.5 grains) in a day. I can tell things have improved. I feel like my body uses the test more efficiently and doesn’t just excrete it.
If you are sub clinical hypothyroid, it can’t hurt to try some NDT. @johann77 posted something a while back that had a paragraph about people who are hypothyroid secreting test faster and having issues with metabolizing it. I’ll look later and post.
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What improvements did you see from NDT? Did it improve libido, skin, etc? I was thinking about 2.5-3 grains for myself too.
Would you consider this subclinical:
12/03/2019
TSH 1.87 (0.40-4.50 mIU/L)
T3, TOTAL 96 (76-181 ng/dL)
T3, FREE 3.2 (2.3-4.2 pg/mL)
T4 (THYROXINE), TOTAL 6.0 (4.9-10.5 mcg/dL)
T4, FREE 1.1 (0.8-1.8 ng/dL)
T3 REVERSE, LC/MS/MS 15 (8-25 ng/dL)
Subclinical hypothyroidism is defined as TSH>5.
While the definition is correct, TSH is a brain peptide, not an accurate marker of thyroid function when underlying issues exists (high cortisol, liver issues, etc). We don’t treat TRT by looking at LH and FSH levels, the same applies to thyroid.
With that said, if you want to look at how you will be treated by “guidelines” they use TSH AND Free T4 as markers for subclinical hypothyroidism. If you get a good doctor, they will treat based on free T3/4 levels (along with considerations for rt3), which makes more sense.
Your levels are low, your free T3 is similar to mine and optimal (if you read on this forum) is typically considered over 4 with Free T4 being mid-range. Your rt3 looks fine, though lower is obviously better.
Free t3 is technically is consider optimal between 3-4.
Better would be 3.5 and up.
It’s not realistic to think that free t3 NEEDS to be 4 and up. That’s literally the tip top of the range. I doubt everybody with healthy libido and functioning thyroid has free t3 4 & up.
I’m taking some supps in order to get my free t3 & t4 levels up a few notches. Hopefully I won’t need additional hormones.
Remember optimal is different for everyone. There are people with 300-400 test levels feeling great. People who probably have similar thyroid numbers to me and seen fine.
I’m in no rush to add anything. For all I know, I just may need to wait things out for 3-4 months before things get better.
What is your TSH?
My situation (n=1)
TSH is at 1.5, FT3 is at 3.1 and FT4 is at 0.8. (same ranges)
FT4 to FT3 conversion is known to be increased during TRT. I don’t have any symptoms of hypothyroidism and as FT3 is midrange there is no need for treatment.
I had a surgically treated bilateral varicocele and libido and erectile function are super good.
As mentioned a clinical hypothyroidism is defined as TSH>5 with FT3 and FT4 in range, but that’s given in your situation. There isn’t a clear cut at TSH 5, merely data suggests that >3.5 the probability of an underlying thyroid disease (eg as evidenced by anti thyroid antibodies) starts to become elevated.
New data suggests that TSH might have an Independent role besides regulation of the thyroid. Complete shut down of TSH as done eg for some forms of thyroid disease or on T3 therapy is independently associated with an increase in mortality.
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TSH 1.87 (0.40-4.50 mIU/L)
I honestly don’t know if i exhibit symptoms of hypothyroid because low t and low thyroid are similar.
Before TRT, i tried armour thyroid 30mg per day. i only last 4-5 days because i had an AWFUL stomach ache during that time. It ALWAYS felt like i had to pass gas or take a shit but my body couldn’t do a thing about it. The pain was pretty consistent with barely any relief, it was agonizing, My girl is great at making correlations and while i was wondering what was going on, she said maybe its the medication. the pain stopped upon cessation of thyroid meds.
I did t3 meds at one point for a few weeks but no real effect.
I do wonder if i should try again, would i benefit more by being on test now.
We’ll see should that bridge need to be crossed.
Not to beat a dead horse here but this thread has turned into looking for a needle in a haystack when there is a giant spear emblazened with a golden E sticking out of said haystack
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I felt like I knew what you were saying until you dropped golden E.
What’s the knowledge you’re tryna drop brotha?
nothing groundbreaking, just the old estrogen story. Definitely follow through with your commitment to yourself on this protocol. But i also feel like the target keeps moving. First its wait 8 weeks. Then its 12-16 weeks. Then somebody chimes in and says it really takes 6 months or longer for libido to come back. im just saying. Your estrogen isnt just a little high. Its THE standout number on your labs. like more than triple the range. It seems pointless to me to be chasing things like hidden thyroid issues. I havent read the whole thread but did you ever try starting with around 100mg per week and ticking up 10mg from there as needed?
I’ve done 100mg split 50mg twice weekly and I couldn’t last a whole month. I felt low testosterone symptoms as if I hadn’t been on test.
You would think I would take an AI and things would improve but they never do.
I’m already 6 1/2 weeks into 150mg weekly and I have no interests in going back to week 1.
I’ve tried everything I could over the last year to expedite the process but the only thing I haven’t tried was just letting the months go back and allowing my body to correct itself.
Gotcha, brother. Rooting for you. But I think the hormone sensitivity issue is overlooked for lots of people here. Many people seem to see only in increments of 50mg(I know I used to coming from the days when I would run cycles of 1gram of T) and then wonder why they cant get dialed in. For anybody else reading, tick up slowly. If you are somebody who said it worked for a minute it was probably because you blew threw your window. I use prop at 100mg/ml concentration which allows me to get pretty accurate dosing in 1mg increments. And it affects me if move the needle by 1mg/day. And thats how i figured out my current dosing. ticked up by 1mg/day increments over the course of a few months until i found the spot. Not trying to throw you off course @darkdescartes more of a public service announcement.
Also what was your E2 number on the 50mg 2x per week?
Never got it tested.
I just knew about 23 days in this wasn’t going to be it as I was really struggling to do my job at that point. I couldn’t think well and had trouble speaking fluently and all that.
Before that I was testing out a B&C dose at 250mg split twice weekly and I was feeling pretty decent. I kinda regret not riding it out for several months, seeing if I can dial in, and then titrating down.
After 100mg I went on my doctors recommendation of 100mg e5d and as you saw my estrogen really shot up relative to my test levels.
So then I just decided on 150mg split twice weekly and been on that since Dec 5th.
70mg Monday & Thursday: Week 1
I decided to keep the Monday/Thursday split. I don’t think think doing e4d will make a difference. Plus with only a minimal change, things still stay on the track
I’ll hold it down for 3 months.
We’ll figure out the next move when the time comes.
Some of you guys really believe if I wait for awhile, that my body will correct itself.
Time to put it to the test
Are you on TRT and can you post all your labs? Was there ever a point where you experienced libido/ED issues?
You are definitely an anomaly among varicocele guys here who have symptoms…