I like them theory, I am going to tell my misses, I am not grumpy I am just resting my face 
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Just trying to catch up and leave my $0.02 (although the conversion rate is terrible, so maybe £0.02).
Anyway, I’d much rather my daughter focus on being awesome than meeting someone’s expectations of appearing awesome. Is it possible that’s why we think there’s a range of athletic bodies that are attractive for men? It’s because of what it implies, rather than how it actually looks? I believe that logic holds for women as well, but you’re more likely to give a shit what someone else thinks. I know I’ll get in trouble for pretending there are any inherent differences, or even that there are women and men, but women are more likely to have a lot of great nurturing/ empathetic capacity; I think it backfires on you when it comes to how you perceive yourself, because you’re in tune with what someone else might think. We’re just blissfully unaware!
I am constantly shocked by how many strangers like talking to me in real life. My wife doesn’t even like talking to me.
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That’s because she knows you and is sick of your crap…
The strangers have no clue.
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Touche
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I strongly disagree!
Seconded.
Being awesome > looking awesome.
Absolutely. For both males and females, keeping in shape is a sign of discipline, energy, health, vitality, etc.
But they’re just signs of discipline in one particular facet. I know plenty of people who are disciplined in certain scholarly facets, but never could create a habit of exercise or healthy eating.
I may have given the wrong impression in posts above. Sorry about that. I don’t have higher standards for women than I do for men. Seems like there’s a healthy range for everyone.
I do, however, have high standards for myself. So I may have communicated that in a weird way. This conversation kind of reminds me of that idea Marcus Aurelius put forth, something along the lines of, “be strict with yourself and tolerant with others.” So if I’m being hard on myself I don’t mean for it to come off as judgy toward anyone else.
Not here, you won’t!
Being blissfully unaware sounds like bliss.
HAHA sounds like you’re approachable! Love that!
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Ooh - interesting! I like that. It’s interesting how it manifests, too.
Here’s an example: my wife can be down for two weeks if someone makes any critical comment about her work at all… even if everyone that matters tells her she’s awesome and crushing it. She holds herself to such a high standard that any minor feeling of “she messed up” crushes her.
I’m intensely hard on myself as well. I have to outperform everyone at work, to the point it’s been a detriment. How it shows is completely different, though. I’m pretty sure I’m harder on myself than anyone, I’m convinced I’ve already thought through everything, so I don’t care about critiques or praise. In fact, if you criticize something I think I got right, it just makes me question your intelligence; same if you aren’t hard on something I think was wrong. Shockingly, I sometimes haven’t managed corporate politics well…
My version certainly isn’t better than hers, but it’s interesting in terms of how we judge ourselves even against a similar internal bar.
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I catch myself doing this. I’ll upload a video on youtube or post something on my blog, and I’ll get a LOT of positive comments and say “I’ll respond to those later”, but the instant I get a critical comment I reply immediately. I’m trying to do a better job of listening to the VOLUME of feedback vs the criticality of it. If everyone says I’m a rockstar and one person says I’m a turd, good chance that one dude is projecting.
It’s easy to understand intellectually, hard to actually implement.
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It’s crazy, right? The other way is just as bad, though. Like how am I going to say I’m super open to feedback if I immediately think you’re an idiot for questioning me?
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It’s where listening to the volume really becomes key. If I hear it frequently enough, it’s probably worth looking into, haha. Getting told “you talk too fast” by enough people when trying my hand at public speaking taught me to slow down. But the first time I heard it? I definitely thought “well that sounds like a YOU problem”, haha.
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Great point. I always played it as the Occam’s Razor, which is similar in this context: “is it more likely everyone is missing the point, or I’m off-base?”
This is a fun conversation!
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That’s extremely relatable. I’m betting she thinks that if she doesn’t beat herself up enough, she’ll make the same mistake again. (Or maybe she doesn’t do that.) I’m obviously not a therapist, but there seems to be certain mental patterns with certain personality types.
Teach us all how to be like this! haha
There are (kinda rare) times when I have this attitude, and it’s so much more freeing than constantly worrying about doing and saying the perfect thing, so that nobody will have anything to criticize.
Actually, I wonder if your version might be related to testosterone production. What do you think?
That hormone has dramatic changes on the brain and attitude. When mine has been super low I’ve been more insecure and prone to self-flagellation. When I bump it up I’m a little less sensitive. TC has written oodles about T so maybe I can find an article here that addresses some of the mind stuff.
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UGH. You’re right about paying attention to the majority who say you’re awesome because you are!
The internet is full of people who have nothing going on in their own lives, so they feel the need to poop on those who do.
This is their thought process: “Your accomplishments make me feel bad about myself, so now I’m going to make sure you feel bad about yourself too.”
Don’t let 'em win!
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Maybe you DO listen to feedback, but only from trusted sources. You’re right to discard it when it’s coming from someone who – you can tell – doesn’t know what they’re talking about.
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Try to walk onto a team nobody wants you on! But that plus:
is a really good question all around.
How much is nature vs. nurture?
Even within either of those, what facets? Like you point out, is testosterone itself a driver? Or just everything being in balance?
Which, obviously, is everyone but me.
I promise I’m not actually this narcissistic, but it’s been really eye-opening getting married and having kids. It really doesn’t bother me what people think about me, and I just figured everyone felt that way; it’s so natural it was hard to think that there’s another option. I’ve obviously since been educated on an extraordinary number of ways to care about what others think of you since having children…
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Just going to pop in to say that this is an awesome discussion
I definitely have higher standards for myself than for others. I think that’s trained from doing group projects and being the only one who gave a crap.
Regarding praise and criticism, I take criticism much more seriously than praise because, from my perspective, it’s a more informative signal. Praise tends to be handed out like candy on Halloween in the contexts I’m in whereas criticism is only doled out when deemed necessary. I’m also not perfect and have a tendency to fall for confirmation bias.
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Whoo boy, I got a good one. Setting firm boundaries for the first time in two decades with my type A on steroids wife.
The result has been…yeah, not the easiest to navigate.
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Even better with you here! (Haha and I don’t mean that to sound phony either. You add a lot to any discussion.)
It seems like a beneficial way to think – if for no other reason – but simply peace of mind. Definitely true for group projects.
The stoic philosophy kinda backs that up too:
I see what you mean; especially in the context of work and in-person interactions.
Have you ever been in a situation where you weren’t sure whether the criticism was truly warranted?
There are so many armchair quarterbacks who aren’t even getting their hands dirty with their own projects, but somehow seem to know exactly how others should be doing theirs.
You make really great points.
So… what’s the best way for someone to show sincere appreciation for another person’s actions without it coming off like candy on Halloween?
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Oh man you win the stepping-outside-your-comfort-zone award! BRAVE SOUL.
I hope your marriage gets stronger and stronger as a result.
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Great point in the context of who is giving the criticism. The amount of people who’ve “helped” me because they either used to be or used to know a guy just like me, except he was a little leaner or stronger or faster or quicker or whatever is insane. And then the advice is just awesome, too: “really? So you’re saying I might see the field if I was just faster? Why didn’t I think of that? You sure you haven’t coached at some level?”
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This would wreck me. I wouldn’t have a thick enough skin to stay there.
I’m not sure we’ll ever have definite answers to those questions. And like you said, male brains are different from female brains.
But here’s something I dug up from one of TC’s articles; this first one is regarding low testosterone in females:
“They might lack ambition and they might prefer to let others make decisions for them.”
And then this paragraph is from the same article regarding behaviors that may naturally boost it:
"Self-esteem seems to play a powerful role in T levels in women, too, and while there’s not much research to support this, my experience as a writer on many aspects of behavioral endocrinology for the last 15 years leads me to believe that these things are true of women, too. Winning a competition would likely lead to an increase in T, however transient. In fact, anything done to reinforce the notion of being a “winner” might go a long way.
So we might assume a woman with low T is more likely to have low self esteem and who’d be less likely to take the lead or make decisions. I’m betting it’s easy for a lot of women to recall times when they’ve felt like that. Especially when feeling run down, sick, or just going through a spell of depression.
But these low T states also give me the impression of a woman who might be more sensitive to criticism, and who might take it more personally. That last bit (taking it personally) is the exact problem.
Because there’s a choice when you receive good criticism: Take it as a gift and take action, or take it personally and mope around before doing anything constructive. ha!
You’re not coming off that way at all. There’s a Jordan Peterson vid somewhere on the youtube about how men perceive themselves and their capabilities. It’s actually very comforting for males to have the perspective that you have. It’s not narcissistic, it’s masculine.
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