I said before that RATE was doing things like rfi’s… i was wrong. i read someone elses post and remembered that “pure” rate work is tapping your hand/foot as fast as you can. Being able to tap your hand fast isnt going to make you a better athlete. Rate is being able to rapidly turn your system on and off. Heres an article by DB that gives examples of it, and explains it a bit:
[quote]Feanor76 wrote:
jtrinsey wrote:
Feanor76 wrote:
Ugh. I’m definitely not a Inno-Jedi.
“Inno-Jedi”… good one, did you think of that yourself?
jtrinsey,
Hey there buddy. Deep breath time. I was making a bit of a joke – at myself.
Having read the offense you took to it, I thought about why it would be offensive … and I realized that it is quite close to the HIT-Jedi phrase that is bandied about. I didn’t intend that relationship.
I could have said “my Inno-fu is bad”. I could have said “I’m not in touch with my inner Inno”.
Or, I could have said, “Jesus, I’m stumbling around here with the terminology. I read the DB book about six months ago, didn’t take notes, and remember very little. I’m probably making most of this up. I hope noone else reads this and has my confusion confuse them. Because, damn, I’m confused myself.”
We’ve had at least one productive discussion before. I hope this won’t stand in the way of future productivity.
Regards,
Mark[/quote]
Haha fair nuff… in the words of Ari Gold, “Let’s hug it out bitch.”
There was a good post on where all the types of exercises lay on a continuum from RATE to DUR but I just can’t find it now. I’m pretty sure that “JackM” posted it, but I searched through his last 500 posts and couldn’t find it…
PIM+MIO are distinct movements, not a combination of both…
I have already a ton of Rate in sprinting which will not be cycled, sprint is a continuous element. I don’t have to add Rate weight light training to have them in one training block, even medecine balls would qualify as a great Rate exercise.
SPP
Day 1:Accel/speed endurance(no plyo)
Day 2:Max velocity+plyo
DB Hammer idea of doing sprint once a week is a nice walt disney theory, It just won’t happend in a real life situation. Too much technical aspects are involve here and have to be learned and repeated the right way. Hell he don’t even believe in doing skips. His ideas are very very ahead of his time, but sometimes he just go ahead of himself, not a good thing.
As for the An-2 bracket, all the MAG will now be considered An-1, but what about for exemple 4x5 REA SQUAT
tempo = 00X1 Thats around 1,5s/reps, for 5 reps It’s 7,5s, so I agree with you that even with 5 reps It still a An-1 thing.
But what about alternated Split Squat
just the same, but what we should consider here, the movement TUT, or the muscle TUT.
Muscle TUT = 7,5s An-1
Movement TUT = 15S An-2
Same real thing, different monitoring
Avoid combining Rate and DUR in the same block…
For GPP, this is not a problem at all. For the SPP part, some may think It is not a great idea. That’s why in the SPP I have just 1 week out of four with DUR movements. Only one training with the fatigue methodics 10%Drop-off probably tuesday. Keep in mind that on week 4 you won’t do anything exceptionally taxing on the track, week 1-3 serve that purpose already.
So we have SPP
week 1-3 Focus FDA+ALTITUDE DROPS+TRACK
week 4 no FDA, no altitude drops and maintain track work
focus strength work
Of course one week of strength out of 4 first won’t won’t hurt anyone and will do wonder to give some rest to the reactive spectrum.
Your concentrated loading comment is exact. That’s why zatsiorsky told us to work only 2-3 qualities in each block. I don’t think I was too far from that recommendation if you take a good look at my plan. It is a small variation from the vertical integration plan, just don’t try to develop every thing you need at the same time, I fully agree with that principle.
Your recommendation seem to be this
Block#1 GPP
Block#2 MaxS
Block#3 Power/speed
Block#4 MaxS
Block#5 Power/speed
Block#6 peak/comp period
nice but I only have 4 block to go before comp at least we are far from Bompa sugestion…take a look
Block#1 GPP
Block#2 MaxS
Block#3 MaxS
Block#4 Power/speed
Block#5 peak/comp period
Block#6 peak/comp period
might be good for Rate dominant athletes, but a poison for those who have already a ton of MaxS.
mine is simply…
Block#1 GPP
Block#2 MaxS
Block#3 Power/speed
Block#4 Power/speed
Block#5 peak/comp period
Block#6 peak/comp period
Next PIM disturbs the CNS by teaching deceleration at the extension (ie toe off in a jump vs top of a squat), where in mag/power movements you want acceleration at extension
ISO in the stretch develops strength throughout the ROM without teacing deceleration at toe off.
Thanks a ton for that info…False neural teaching pattern
therefore explosive squat with full hips extension + plantar flexion would be a great idea…
adonail
lighting Fast
JT youve been helping me out alot on the other board, so i figured i can help you out.
Heres the little “chart” by JackM from the other board:
<-Speed--------------------------------------------Strength–>
<–RFI-- -REA----ADA—FDA—OI—PIM—MIO–PLIO–ISO
Just to let you know, on the other board its under the “Speed and Power” section, and the thread is called “progressions”- it is “stickied” so its like the 4th thread.
His post is about 3/4 the way down the 1st page.
Also, heres another post he made later in the thread:
“By REA I was referring to general unloaded reactive methods and not loaded reactive acceleration methods.”
Basically, i think its beacause his use of “REA” is different than what the book describes (im not sure i dont remember what the book describes REA work as.)
Thank ya sir… I dunno why I couldnt find that!
Well well
Great post
I’ll try my hardest here
I agree with the sprint work covering most of your rate work. Technique work would also classify as rate
Done at a sub max they would be Tempos and could be incorporated into the “system”
Regarding the sprints every 4th day… I agree it is tough to pull off. in activities with a strong technical component you need more frequent practice. Sou you could do a low, low, low volume of sprint work daily at top speed and once a week do a long sprint session followed by a longer recovery.
for example sprint low volume M,T,W and on friday sprint to a 3% drop off. Take the weekend off and repeat.
For some ideas read fast paced fitness and some of nuttalls qna’s about fast paced and apply the same concept to your sprint training
As far as an-2 and mag. I’d say use the time of the set as the guide not TUT
So split squat cycles you’d only hit 1 or 2 reps per leg.
You block structure looks pretty solid
In the end I think you’d use performance as a guide. Go on MaxS work as long as you see sprint times improving (you couldeven do 1 or 2 sprints in the warm up as a guage and so you dont lose technique).
then when performance does not increase in sprints (your ultimate goal) you’d swithc to a power cycle and your sprint times should take off. Personally on the St-Sp day (FDA) I’d probably work up to 80-90% 1rm for singles to maintain strength.
Then when your power increases do not translate to speed increases or power just stops increasing then switch back to MaxS. This way the blocks are not technically planned out far in advance.
so my reccomendation is not just alternate strengh work with power work on a block for block basis, but train the athletes needs. Their “indicators”, as dave tate would call them, will tell you when to switch
[quote]adonail wrote:
PIM+MIO are distinct movements, not a combination of both…
I have already a ton of Rate in sprinting which will not be cycled, sprint is a continuous element. I don’t have to add Rate weight light training to have them in one training block, even medecine balls would qualify as a great Rate exercise.
SPP
Day 1:Accel/speed endurance(no plyo)
Day 2:Max velocity+plyo
DB Hammer idea of doing sprint once a week is a nice walt disney theory, It just won’t happend in a real life situation. Too much technical aspects are involve here and have to be learned and repeated the right way. Hell he don’t even believe in doing skips. His ideas are very very ahead of his time, but sometimes he just go ahead of himself, not a good thing.
As for the An-2 bracket, all the MAG will now be considered An-1, but what about for exemple 4x5 REA SQUAT
tempo = 00X1 Thats around 1,5s/reps, for 5 reps It’s 7,5s, so I agree with you that even with 5 reps It still a An-1 thing.
But what about alternated Split Squat
just the same, but what we should consider here, the movement TUT, or the muscle TUT.
Muscle TUT = 7,5s An-1
Movement TUT = 15S An-2
Same real thing, different monitoring
Avoid combining Rate and DUR in the same block…
For GPP, this is not a problem at all. For the SPP part, some may think It is not a great idea. That’s why in the SPP I have just 1 week out of four with DUR movements. Only one training with the fatigue methodics 10%Drop-off probably tuesday. Keep in mind that on week 4 you won’t do anything exceptionally taxing on the track, week 1-3 serve that purpose already.
So we have SPP
week 1-3 Focus FDA+ALTITUDE DROPS+TRACK
week 4 no FDA, no altitude drops and maintain track work
focus strength work
Of course one week of strength out of 4 first won’t won’t hurt anyone and will do wonder to give some rest to the reactive spectrum.
Your concentrated loading comment is exact. That’s why zatsiorsky told us to work only 2-3 qualities in each block. I don’t think I was too far from that recommendation if you take a good look at my plan. It is a small variation from the vertical integration plan, just don’t try to develop every thing you need at the same time, I fully agree with that principle.
Your recommendation seem to be this
Block#1 GPP
Block#2 MaxS
Block#3 Power/speed
Block#4 MaxS
Block#5 Power/speed
Block#6 peak/comp period
nice but I only have 4 block to go before comp at least we are far from Bompa sugestion…take a look
Block#1 GPP
Block#2 MaxS
Block#3 MaxS
Block#4 Power/speed
Block#5 peak/comp period
Block#6 peak/comp period
might be good for Rate dominant athletes, but a poison for those who have already a ton of MaxS.
mine is simply…
Block#1 GPP
Block#2 MaxS
Block#3 Power/speed
Block#4 Power/speed
Block#5 peak/comp period
Block#6 peak/comp period
Next PIM disturbs the CNS by teaching deceleration at the extension (ie toe off in a jump vs top of a squat), where in mag/power movements you want acceleration at extension
ISO in the stretch develops strength throughout the ROM without teacing deceleration at toe off.
Thanks a ton for that info…False neural teaching pattern
therefore explosive squat with full hips extension + plantar flexion would be a great idea…
adonail
lighting Fast
[/quote]
Just a quick question, hopfully somebody can answer this for me.
I am a basketball player and plan on beginning endurance- related work 4 weeks away from the season. I do my basketball workouts every day on top of lifting following a Westside/Inno Sport approach.
I was thinking of just including some suicides, 17s and 400 metre sprints in with my basketball workouts. The basketball workouts are spread apart from the lifting by hours each day.
Is there any concern with losing explosiveness or making my gains in vertical jump and speed stall? Where do endurance (An-2?) activities fall in relation to the MAG barrier? Some of these drills may even be included in the An-1 bracket since they are less than 70 seconds. Some will be An-2.
Somebody please help me with your thoughts on this. Thanks.
[quote]tajam wrote:
Just a quick question, hopfully somebody can answer this for me.
I am a basketball player and plan on beginning endurance- related work 4 weeks away from the season. I do my basketball workouts every day on top of lifting following a Westside/Inno Sport approach.
I was thinking of just including some suicides, 17s and 400 metre sprints in with my basketball workouts. The basketball workouts are spread apart from the lifting by hours each day.
Is there any concern with losing explosiveness or making my gains in vertical jump and speed stall? Where do endurance (An-2?) activities fall in relation to the MAG barrier? Some of these drills may even be included in the An-1 bracket since they are less than 70 seconds. Some will be An-2.
Somebody please help me with your thoughts on this. Thanks. [/quote]
First of all, An-1 is 5-9 seconds, An-2 lower bound is 10-24 seconds and An-2 Upper bound is 25-40 seconds. 40-70 is Ae-1 (aerobic response). Anything above that is aerobic reserve.
Second of all, I would not try to use AREG as per the Inno-Sport system for conditoning work as the rest intervals would be too long. Using a drop-off might still be a good idea. Simply pick a conditoning drill (like the old standby of suicides) and time your first set going all-out. I would probably use something like a 20% drop-off, figure out that time and just keep going with that until you can’t stay at that time any more.
JT how many days would u take off after doing something like that? 20% DO seems like a big number if u ask me.
[quote]TomRocco wrote:
JT how many days would u take off after doing something like that? 20% DO seems like a big number if u ask me. [/quote]
I think you could do that twice a week. Conditioning stuff I don’t think is as taxing on the CNS as it is on the muscular system. Just from personal experience I find that I’m perfectly good to go 2-3 days afer a conditioning workout.
I forgot to put this in my other post but how long do u rest between each “set”?
Do u make the conditioning work 1 workout for the day or can i incorporate it into my weight schedule you saw on the other site? Would i be able to do this on off days for recovery? Im considering doing my 4:1/6:2 strength work depending on gains, so 1-2 times a week can i incorporate this on either my 2nd or 3rd day of rest between each session?
If you dont understand what i mean, ill just type out what id do so u can see it better.
Also, do u recommend using “pinnacle” or “prime” for the conditioning work? Im probably going to run around the track 1 time and time it. ill multiply that time by .80, and once i hit the multiplied time, i would be done. So lets say it takes 100 seconds to get around the track once. would i try to go around the track as fast as i can, or would i run sub-maximally? Im thinking for running running as harder would be better opposed to running submaximally.
Would i be better off using something that doesnt take as long to complete as my conditioning, or is the longer distance all right?
Thanks a lot
I would do pinnacle-capacity type runs. Just run your ass off each time, I think conditioning would come faster that way.
You could incorporate conditioning workouts now… just remember that it WILL take away from your strength training. Of course, it could be worth it if you need more conditioning.
I think 400m would be fine for general conditioning, although you probably want some shorter stuff at some point.
I would rest long enough to catch your breathe. Somewhere between 2:1 and 1:2 work:rest ratio. Maybe more if you are out of shape.
What is the opinion on this board of Strength training for power potential the way DB prescribes? It seems that he doesnt like squats and most of the other typical strength exercises that the westside guys live by.
What does everyone think about the strength template set up with Iso’s, Mio’s, Eccentrics and OI’s? How does this serve the athlete looking to improve power potential? Has anyone followed a plan like this?
[quote]tajam wrote:
What is the opinion on this board of Strength training for power potential the way DB prescribes? It seems that he doesnt like squats and most of the other typical strength exercises that the westside guys live by.
What does everyone think about the strength template set up with Iso’s, Mio’s, Eccentrics and OI’s? How does this serve the athlete looking to improve power potential? Has anyone followed a plan like this? [/quote]
I think you’ll find that there really isn’t anybody who trains exactly by the way that DB describes it. There’s about 10-15 people keeping training logs over on the DB forum and I’m pretty sure that every single person on there is squatting in some way or the other. For the record though, I do like a lot of principles behind it, I train in a method somewhat similar to it and I’ve been hitting PR’s all over the place.
jtrinsey, what elements do you like to include from DB? How do you put it together?
Also, everyone talks about the DB forum, but i cant find it. Can someone post a link or something?
[quote]tajam wrote:
jtrinsey, what elements do you like to include from DB? How do you put it together?
[/quote]
I pretty much use that method to structure my workouts and to help select training methods and also set/rep/time guidelines. The 4:1 or 6:2 fatigue:frequency scales he recommends basically wind up equating to 2+1, 3+1 or 3+2 work:deload weeks, which I find works pretty well for me. Total work is definitly lower, so it’s probably not optimal for hypertrophy (at least the way I’m doing it), but it seems to work very well for strength gains as the nervous system is always fresh.
I also like saying, for instance, “Ok I’m doing floor press in the An-2 bracket today.” That way instead of just going for a 3 x 8 or something, I just pick a weight I know that I can get for at least 5 reps, then just go balls out and try to get as many reps as I can with it. Sometimes I can only get 5 or 6, but sometimes I surprise myself and get 9 or 10. Then I drop the weight or reps and try to hit as many sets before drop-off as possible. I usually find that either peak performance (being able to do a heavier weight or more reps) increases or work capacity (more sets before drop-off) increases each workout, usually not both though.
Right now I’ve been doing total body workouts, twice a week. One DUR An-1 “main session” with a DUR An-2 “companion session”. Every three weeks I do a MAG fatigue session and there will usually only be one workout that week.
So for tommorow, my DUR An-1 session looks like:
A. Front Squats, N x 2 reps
B. Push Press, N x 3 reps
After this some pull-ups and decline situps for fairly low reps, not really trying to get any specific fatigue, just a little work.
And my companion session will look like:
A. ISO Bulgarian Split Squats, N x 15-30 seconds
B. ISO Off-set abs (side bends in the GHR machine) N x 15-30 seconds
C. Blast-Strap Push-Ups, N x reps
D. Back Extnension, N x 12 reps
E. Pull-Ups, N x reps
I always do them “circuit-style”, using the 8-minute rule, ie, I dictate rest periods such that I get the circuit completed in 8 minutes. So I’ll have about 3.5 minutes in between sets of push press and front squat, and 45 seconds to a minute in between exercises on the companion session.
How I put it together… typically I’ll do a 3-week “Mesocycle” with some sort of general focus. Last week I was really trying to improve my starting and pulling strength, so it was a lot of MIO and ISO work and movements were deadlifts, pull-ups, floor press, etc. This week I’m focusing a little more on eccentric strength and core strength, hence the selection of front squats, push press, blast-strap pushups, and more PIM and OLP (over-load pliometric, which is essentially what a push press is, a cheated military press that lets you use a heavier weight on the eccentric than you would normally be able to do.) stuff.