CT or Waterbury? Frequency for Muscle Growth

[quote]98V wrote:
Isolation/Single-Joint work is, more often that not, included depending on time and goals.
[/quote]

See this is where I see the flaw in TBT. It is that you are limited with TBT because you are working so many muscle groups in one workout. Both time, energy, and the onset of stress hormones limit the amount of work you can get done in that one workout.

I follow the same basic priciples in my spit workouts doing compound movements first and using maybe one or two isolation exercises last but I can hit bench press hard without being exhausted from squats and still have plenty of time to throw in some isolation exercises.

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Not to belabor my points made before and although I do love this site for the information and entertainment it has given me throughout the years, I do find it funny that writers on here are constantly poking fun at men who “have thighs so big that they start a fire when they rub together while running”, or something to that effect.

If it is so humorous and that look is so undesirable according to them, women, or society in general, then why post pictures of men with tree trunk legs and various overall freakish bodies in the Shocking Images section. I am speaking of freaks like Rusty Jeffers, Branch Warren, Mark Erpelding, Frank McGrath, Kevin Levrone, Desmond Miller, and some other unnamed ones.

Why interview Justin Harris? Why interview Dorian Yates, a freak’s freak? Why make fun of bodybuilders and then advertise to the bodybuilding community? Why have booths at tradeshows and Expos at bodybuilding venues? Why do all this when the bodybuilding world is so “dysfunctional” and deviant, sexually (Sex Cult of Venice Beach, Sex, Lies, and Muscle), intellectually, athletically, and socially?

As a sidenote, I always find it funny when one says “I do not want to get ‘too big.’ Women do not like guys who are ‘too big.’” This is quite humorous since nearly every guy who is “too big” nearly always has a woman. Ever been to a bodybuilding show? Look around.

TC once stated in an article that dealt with the changing aesthetics of bodybuilding that most of the freaks we see today took up physique enhancement to attract women, yet these same men never had a pair of panties thrown at them, or something to this effect.

I am sorry to break it to some people, but quite a few jacked men have had this happen to them. Dennis Newman, Shawn Ray, Craig Titus, Mike O’hearn, Frank Sepe, and even Frankenstein Paul Dilet have NEVER had trouble getting enough, if not MORE than enough women. Instead what they do is poke fun at their wild sex lives, wishing that they too probably could have two or three women in the same bed as them. [/quote]

I agree. The whole women thinking muscles are gross argument is total bullshit. First off, for most people, they will never get even remotely big enough to be “unattractive” in the way that is described above (thighs rubbing together).

Second, it just puts a psychological block in the minds of new lifters, which may in fact impede progress because they are trying “not to get too big”. I’m not very big yet, but I gained 45lbs already using the “think big” mentality. Essentially, I’m making better progress cause I’m always thinking that there will never be an end to it.

damn i got into this thread late. but as far as the CW vs. CT thing goes i was wondering the EXACT same thing when i read beast building pt. 1

CT told me it was too advanced for me anyway though

man this is probably the most confusing topic of bodybuilding. the thing is though that i see people like alwyn cosgrove, Waterbury, and other experts suggesting that TBT will work for 90% of people and if not then at least an upper/lower split will work. it makes a lot of sense too especially for people in earlier stages of BBing but as many have pointed out there really arent many bodybuilders who dont train with a split routine. i’m sure they both work but still it’s a confusing topic

First excuse my english iam not form u.s

i read tnation for years never bothered to reply to anything posted but this is just getting hilarious.

For the record its not by far the “probably the most confusing topic of bodybuilding”

theres literature suporting splits since for ever.

Heres few references

Chiu, L.Z.F and Barnes, J.L., 2003. The Fitness-Fatigue Model Revisited: Implications for Planning Short- and Long-Term Training. Strength and Conditioning Journal: Vol. 25, No. 6, pp. 42�??51

Benedict,T. 1999. Manipulating Resistance Training Program Variables to Optimize Maximum Strength in Men: A Review. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 13, No. 3, pp. 289�??304

Gillam, G.M.1981. Effects of frequency of weight training on muscle strength
enhancement. J. Sports Med. Phys. Fitness. 21:432�??436.

Graves, J.E., M.L. Pollock, S.H. Leggett, R.W. Braith, D.M. Carpenter, and L.E. Bishop. 1988.Effect of reduced training frequency on muscular strength. Int. J. Sports Med. 9:316�??319.

Gregory, L.W.1981. Some observations on strength training and assessment. J. Sports Med. Phys. Fitness. 21:130�??137.

Hoffman, J.R., W.J. Kraemer, A.C. Fry, M. Deschenes, and M. Kemp.1990. The effects of self-selection for frequency of training in a winter conditioning program for football. J. Appl. Sports Sci. Res. 4:76�??82.

What all those references conclude is that upper body muscles need 3 to 5 days before work out again and lower parts 3 to 4.

Furthemore anyone familiar with myofabric vs sarcoplasmatic hypertrophy ?

Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is an increase in the volume of the non-contractile muscle cell fluid, sarcoplasm. This fluid accounts for 25-30% of the muscle�??s size. Although the cross sectional area of the muscle increases, the density of muscle fibers per unit area decreases, and there is no increase in muscular strength (2). This type of hypertrophy is mainly a result of high rep, �??bodybuilder-type�?? training (3).

Myofibrillar hypertrophy, on the other hand, is an enlargement of the muscle fiber as it gains more myofibrils, which contract and generate tension in the muscle.

With this type of hypertrophy, the area density of myofibrils increases and there is a significantly greater ability to exert muscular strength (2). This type of hypertrophy is best accomplished by training with heavy weights for low reps (3).

One must remember that the average football play lasts 4.5 seconds, it takes about 3 seconds to complete a 1 RM, it takes less than a second to swing a bat, less than a second to throw a punch and less than a second to jump for a rebound

Olympic lifters train with low reps lots of sets and look like lifters , thin usually without lots of muscles although very strong eg Myofibrillar hypertrophy

bodybuilders train with high volume way higher reps eg Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy

THIS is the same for drag or non drag users.

THE big diference everyone seem to forget is that sadly 90% of the gym population that wnats muscle uses steroids.

With steroids you will see results either by doing the hilarious chad;s routines as long as u weight lifts and eat properly or aby any other means .

In fact if u take a ton of drugs and eat clean even if u only do sprints u will see muscles and in any anaerobic training that promotes the sligtless anabolism especially if u are a novice lifter.

In natural humans howerver u wont see any results past the first month wit any of chads routines period.

chads routines are good for the newbie and thats all, by the way i find that hes very smart targeting the newbie group , promoting his ideas there , where no indepth knowlledge exists and is all about selling it.

now i understand he is a tnation writer so other tnation contributors will try to suport him in public consider they do have really in depth knowlledge of the sport thay can do it easily.

there so many other things i could write by that can be arsed because the time is very late i just got back from a club.

For the record i weight train for 16 years in the row all natural not that it means much by it self and i dont claim to be authentie or something but some things are well known for years try read some more.

bodybuilders use splits and heavy volume because it works , maybe it wont make u stronger or faster but if building muscles is what u aim and a generaly contition u will get the most out of it.

its not luck that the best bbuilder of all times ronnie coleman favored 10-15 reps and he almost did the very same program for 10 years with slight variations , just like yates because he did exercises that gave him the best buck for their money. Not that he never changed or never did heavier trianing but the majority was like that , that surely means something , even by objervation.

Closing i would quote what the great davi tate said who knows the most at least form str point of view.

hypetrophy should come as a by product for a powerlifter.
on the other hand strength should come as a byproduct for the bodybuilder

well a full body routine would go against the studies u posted but couldnt u recieve the same sarcoplasmic hypertrophy from full body training with reps in the 8-15 range? and areu saying that lower reps dont result in any hypertrophy?

[quote]David1991 wrote:
well a full body routine would go against the studies u posted but couldnt u recieve the same sarcoplasmic hypertrophy from full body training with reps in the 8-15 range? and areu saying that lower reps dont result in any hypertrophy?[/quote]

Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy? Hell, we debunked that one (in the sense that bodybuilders are somehow gaining mostly sarcoplasm and not contractile fiber size) on the forums here.

http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=910872&pageNo=0

[quote]topoulo wrote:
<<< In natural humans howerver u wont see any results past the first month wit any of chads routines period. >>>[/quote]

So at midnight of day 31 all progress stops?

Glen Chabot.

I think that we should have told Kirk Karwoski and Glen Chabot, while in their primes, that they should have held back on gaining useless mass, “sarcoplasmic hypertrophy”. Maybe we should tell that to current day greats like Ed Coan, Mike Wolf, Bill Carpenter, and Sebastian Burns, people who seem to be doing a shitload of useless bodybuilding training within their powerlifting regimens.

i just wasted 30 mins of my life reading this thread

[quote]David1991 wrote:
well a full body routine would go against the studies u posted but couldnt u recieve the same sarcoplasmic hypertrophy from full body training with reps in the 8-15 range? and areu saying that lower reps dont result in any hypertrophy?[/quote]

You need heavy volume training in order to acheive this.

non steroid users usally need 45 to 1 hour tops into gym before going into catabolic state.

for example a chest program of an average guy will consist 12-15 sets , maybe he do bicepts or another body part with chest full program or just few sets.

For the record i dont beleve that any naturalhuman can do proper training for one part and another proper training for another if heavy volume.

So to sum up 12-15 sets with 6-90 sec pause between with around 8-12 reps with a tmepo of 301 will take u around 20 minutes to complete.

Add some 10 min warm up that most do , plus some abs a bit chit chat mabe and here you go your 40-45 minutes.

full body train like this cant happen.

Closing i want to comment into 10 sets x 3 reps thing.

I think its a very smart propotition.

I say this because for the past 16 years the vast majority of guys that want to make muscles are to ego to accept that they usually able to push 50% or less the weight they use.

Everyone wants to push heavy weights , wihtout proper technique mostly to boost their ego.

I used to show them how to do for example proper bench with 301 tempo , without locking their hands onto top so they wil be constantly into chest stress and so on.

the result was that if someone was doing 200 pounds for 5-6 reps half of them with help from another guy , after proper technique , was doing barely 100 pounds.

huge hit to their ego.
But with 10 sets of 3 reps o boy back to 200 pounds or more.

Also for a novice this will work , 3 reps 20 reps everything works for a starter simply because their body arent used to any type of weight training and responds

last heavy volume is painfull and the hard way.

So its not wonder that most guys use steroids ego + easy way = steroids but thats another thing to discuss.

closing i will again refer David tate

hypetrophy should come as a by product for a powerlifter.
Strength should come as a byproduct for the bodybuilder

i think it summs up everything

[quote]topoulo wrote:

for example a chest program of an average guy will consist 12-15 sets , maybe he do bicepts or another body part with chest full program or just few sets.

For the record i dont beleve that any naturalhuman can do proper training for one part and another proper training for another if heavy volume.

So to sum up 12-15 sets with 6-90 sec pause between with around 8-12 reps with a tmepo of 301 will take u around 20 minutes to complete.

Add some 10 min warm up that most do , plus some abs a bit chit chat mabe and here you go your 40-45 minutes.

full body train like this cant happen.

[/quote]

but if it only takes u 20min. then u could definitely do another bodypart. u shouldnt be “chit chatting”. u should have a 5min. warm up and 2 20min. sessions would be 45min.

that would still be going along with a split but still i cant see why u would NEED 45min. for one muscle group all the time

If you can manage sure.

Im usually too exausted after my main body part training to do another full program. In fact i can barely move my ass after i done a proper intence train program.

What i do though and it isnt a tip or anything just my way , is especially when i train smaller parts like shoulders is do 4-5 sets of pull ups for back.

Or with arms 4-5 chest barbel or dumbell bench and so on. most of the itmes on back day ill do 3-4 sets of shoulder press as well.

Reason i do this , is as i mention since i cant fully train another part i may as well stimulate it .

Of course im natural and i train to failure , for a steroid user even if he need more volume for each bodypart he will still be able to train another part hypothetically.

[quote]topoulo wrote:
If you can manage sure.

Im usually too exausted after my main body part training to do another full program. In fact i can barely move my ass after i done a proper intence train program.

What i do though and it isnt a tip or anything just my way , is especially when i train smaller parts like shoulders is do 4-5 sets of pull ups for back.

Or with arms 4-5 chest barbel or dumbell bench and so on. most of the itmes on back day ill do 3-4 sets of shoulder press as well.

Reason i do this , is as i mention since i cant fully train another part i may as well stimulate it .

Of course im natural and i train to failure , for a steroid user even if he need more volume for each bodypart he will still be able to train another part hypothetically.

[/quote]

so ur saying on back day u have some shoulder work and when u work u have some back work? so ur hitting each muscle group 2x a week once hard and once with less sets?

Im going to intervene her with my own thoughts and ideas since, well I am the op who started this mess lol

Its too bad this became a TBT vs split thread but I do enjoying hearing everyones thoughts. so Im gonna spit one of my own.

I dont think any workout should go over 30-40 minutes max.

tempo is also important so Ill briefly explain.

I believe you must work both types of fibers, slow twitch and fast twitch in the same set (bare with me on this)

that means during the concentric portion of the lift, you push (or pull) as fast as you can. during the eccentric portion your tempo should be a 3-4 second down.

this will work both fibers because the concentric portion is like the sprinting portion of the lift, thus working your fast twitch, also the eccentric is like the marathon runner. Now Im not saying eccentric part of the lift only hits slow twitch fibers and conversly the concentric doesnt only hit fast twitch. but, by really focusing on the eccentric your hitting all types of fibers. dont get me wrong weight training is a very fast twitch fiber workout but the reason why you focus on that tempo is because it itll also hit slow fibers aswell.

so sense the tempo is lower a great way to keep workouts intense and in a time limit is to incorporate supersets.

so 30 minutes so you can get in, give full focus, and get out. anything past 45+ you start having lack luster workouts (from experience. I know everyones different)

just my 2 cents.

" that means during the concentric portion of the lift, you push (or pull) as fast as you can. during the eccentric portion your tempo should be a 3-4 second down. "

Yep i agree , with this tempo and considering you need around 30-40 seconds per set for hypetrophy it means roughly 8-12 reps as a general rule.

Add the research that shows that u must rest each body part for 3-5 days add a 1-2 rest days and u have the picture.
Again steroid users are another thing and they can work twice per day.

Of course you gonna have heavier days or lighter eg 15 reps but the majority of the volume should be 8-12.

" so ur saying on back day u have some shoulder work and when u work u have some back work? so ur hitting each muscle group 2x a week once hard and once with less sets? "

I wont recomend following my progam. Although we all humans and we share 99,999 same dna some things might not work for you , add diferences in years of training , nutrition , everyday lifestyle and steroids lol.

howerver since you asked , ill clarify.

My program goes like monday chest full program and a 4 superset bicept tricept.
Tuesday back with 4-5 sets of shoulders and a couple for traps.
Wend legs and forearms.
Thursd off .
Friday i do arms full program and 4-5 sets of chest bench press .
Sat shoulders full program with 4-5 sets of pull ups or a row.
Sund off

Again if i could do 2 bodyparts per training maybe i would or if i had the time to go morning - night training and siting all day for recuperation or using steroids but i dont either.

So as i said im too tired from the first full program to do another so i try to stimulate a bit if i can.