Thank you for taking the time to write that thoughtful post. I especially appreciate what you wrote what I quoted here. As I said, I’m simply torn on the issue and vaccines generally. I’m not “anti-vaxx” nor am I pro-vaccine. I’m simply not well-educated on vaccines; I don’t think the little reading I’ve done on the matter makes me well informed.
By the way, the guy who posted about passing out, is likely, as you said, unfamiliar with the gym. Feeling faint or passing out isn’t that unusual after some lower body exercises, likely from temporary hypotension, as you likely know.
Today’s lesson in “how misinformation spreads” / “how anti-vaxxers strategically sow doubt with Just Asking Questions”
Here a long-time science-doubter-type who nonetheless has garnered a substantial following implies that being asked if she was on blood thinners (when taken to the ER after a fall) is now a routine question, but it wasn’t before - so surely this MUST be related to the COVID vaccines!
Except, that’s ridiculous, because anyone that knows anything would know that this is, in fact, a pretty routine question to ask…and it’s especially normal to ask someone that’s just been taken there to be checked out after a fall (bleeding risk).
This has been today’s lesson in how JAQ-ers continue entrapping their followers with nebulous insinuations that SOMETHING FISHY IS HAPPENING!
I’m sure you think dr Malone, Dr McCullough, Dr Kory, Dr Cole and many others are misinformation spreaders too. Everyone of these people have spoken before Congress, including steve kirsch. I’m sure you also think that the countries that are stopping the Covid vax for anyone under 30 is misinformed and anyone questioning the Covid vax is misinformed. And I bet you think the Covid vax is extremely safe for children and needed in them even without safety trials.
I do not believe these people are working in good faith, no.
The FLCCC (Kory’s organization) is laughable.
Speaking before Congress is not an indicator of credibility. It’s an indicator that someone in Congress invited you to speak, probably because they knew you would say something they wanted you to say.
Fortunately, I already addressed this issue when I said:
I do not believe we will see eye to eye, but I may respond to you once or twice to help others learn to spot how the parties who convince people like you work, and how you can spot when they’re actually, you know, lying.
Ah, yes, you haven’t had any problems YET! But you WILL! Soon! The reckoning is just around the corner! If you haven’t been killed by the COVID vaccine YET, just wait! It will happen eventually!
I’m legitimately sympathetic to this, by the way - the issue of who to “trust” and what information is “credible” and when science is actually “settled” or not. It’s absolutely maddening to be a guy working in good faith in this field (broadly) and see the kinds of discussions that have happened over the last few years. I wish I had better answers for you. The best I can do now, I think, is just try to show some of the common tropes that the outright-misinfo-peddlers use so people can more easily spot them.
Oh, I’d also like to address the “so and so has a million dollars out to anyone will debate him, and no one will take him up on it” thing.
This is ridiculous for two reasons. One is that it’s strictly performative - does anyone really believe that the person would actually pay the million dollars? The second is that the reason people don’t take up these challenges is that debates are actually an absolutely awful place to have a real scientific conversation because it’s very, very, very fucking easy to just lie and make shit up that lands with the audience. Suppose I’m having a “debate” between Dr. Real Vaccine Expert and Mr. Fake Anti-Vaccine Fraud. It’s SO easy for Mr. Fake Anti-Vaccine Fraud to string together some sciency-sounding scary words that will land with the audience he wants them to land with (what’s the rule about it being orders of magnitude harder to refute bullshit than it was to make up the bullshit in the first place?)
So if Mr. Fake Anti-Vaccine Fraud says on the debate stage “The vaccines are upregulating beta gamma alpha epsilon 1, a known pleurotubulotoxin, and we know that this has dangerous long term effects…” and every single word of that is a lie, and Dr. Real Vaccine Expert knows this is a lie and says as much…on the debate stage, this doesn’t work at all. It’s really hard to treat this like it’s just a “free market of ideas” thing.
That’s why the frauds always make a big show of asking for debates, knowing that no credible scientific source will actually do this. It’s very effective for their audience, though, because the whole “No one from Pfizer will debate me!” works just as well for what they need out of this. It’s all a conspiracy! They’re hiding it from you!
I apologize if you thought I was actually here to discuss the data with you. I am not.
I am here to show a couple of the more easily spotted tactics used by Kirsch, Wolf, and their ilk.
Kirsch posted a video of weightlifters passing out and insinuated that the “medical community” needs to be more curious about what’s happening, implying that these weightlifters passing out is a new phenomonon due to the vaccines. That’s a lie - these videos have been around for years before COVID vaccines existed. He was quickly corrected, but you’ll notice he will not delete the tweet, because it’s still doing what he wants - sowing doubt, driving engagement.
Wolf posted a tweet insinuating that it was highly unusual for her to be asked if she was on blood thinners upon presenting to the ER for a fall, implying that this is a new phenomenon due to the vaccines. Again, this is a lie - any person presenting to the ER to be examined for a fall should be asked if they are on blood thinners due to the risk of bleeding. Again, she was quickly corrected by actual ER doctors (and others) who would know this. Again, she did not delete the tweet, because it’s still doing what she wants - sowing doubt, driving engagement.
That is what I am attempting to “show” with any posts I make in this thread. Hopefully that brings some clarity for you.
Correct. We probably won’t see eye to eye on the Covid vax issues. I for one work in healthcare and see needless medicines pushed and prescribed all the time, including the Covid vaccine that has little to no benefit. I hope you do put out truthful info to see who is lying or not, but let’s be honest, your agenda is Covid vax promotion and seem to deny any problem with the vaccine whatsoever.
I am probably much closer to this position than you’d guess. I am a clinical trial statistician that (personally) has a very high burden of proof for adoption of any new medication, medical device, or other intervention. I have been fortunate to have very few personal health issues that required medical attention, but should I ever be in that position, I surely will be a quite annoying patient that asks to see the data before going on any sort of medication or undergoing any sort of procedure.
Do you not see how the aforementioned examples illustrate that Kirsch and Wolf are highly disingenuous?
If that’s what you’ve gotten from my posts, I suggest we conclude. Good day.
Everyone and no one and their sources at the bottom of the article or study. It’s hard to weed through all the garbage information out there. Many so called reputable people and or organizations have been wrong from the start or have lied. I look at studies on PubMed and CINAHL. Look at statistics. Covid vax pushers hate hearing about VAERS but it’s a government site for vaccine reactions. Look up batch numbers for the vaccines. There are many people that have taken the vax with no issue at all. But you can’t deny that there are also many people that have been severely harmed and even died from it as vax pushers deny. As soon as someone says one thing about not taking the vax they are attacked. This should be a red flag. Scientific minds look at plausibility. At the end of the day this should always be a choice to take it or not. Not an unconstitutional enforcement to inject a poison in your body.
Well. See that quoted part? Thats where a lot of problems arise.
People can deny anything they want, because statistics and facts address the rational part of ones mind, but don’t address the emotional parts.
So what happens is that people only agree with the science when it agrees with what they feel.
When it doesn’t it becomes disinformation. Not by virtue of manipulation or some long term strategy of subversion or control, but because more was discovered.
Remember a few years ago when it was said that this is a very fluid and fast moving situation?
But they do control whether or not they respond to the survey. His readers and their friends are likely not a representative sample of the US at large. However, more importantly, the respondents to the survey are likely not a representative sample of his readers and their friends.
If you are reading an antivax substack and are yourself antivax, then you are potentially more likely to respond to a question if you know someone who died while vaxxed. It validates your world view and you likely feel a sense of accomplishment from doing it. If you believe vaccines are bad and know someone who died recently while not being vaxxed, you receive no such sense of accomplishment from responding to the survey. Laziness is more likely to win out and you won’t respond.
This is an obvious and fatal flaw in his methodology. I won’t bother to try to collect the money, because I am quite certain he has no intention of ever paying out.
He does make the claim that it wasn’t possible to game the survey since no one knew how he was going to use the data until after the survey was taken. This is silly because a reasonable person could easily guess what the data means and how he might use it.