[quote]Sifu wrote:
Do you actually have some data to back up your “fact” that there are six couples willing to adopt a severely deformed baby? I find that hard to believe considering the fact that there are a lot of healthy kids in the adoption system who will never get adopted merely because they are too old and most people only want to adopt babies. [/quote]
As someone who’s gone through the adoption process I can say that this is very true. Statistically speaking these people might be saying this now but I bet when push comes to shove they would decline adoption. People want to adopt healthy babies.
And as someone with a mentally challenged sibling can we not use the term “flipper baby”? I know it sounds cool and all but it’s really fucking tasteless.
Can we also accept that recommending that someone abort a child is not the same as forcing someone to?
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Do you actually have some data to back up your “fact” that there are six couples willing to adopt a severely deformed baby? I find that hard to believe considering the fact that there are a lot of healthy kids in the adoption system who will never get adopted merely because they are too old and most people only want to adopt babies. [/quote]
As someone who’s gone through the adoption process I can say that this is very true. Statistically speaking these people might be saying this now but I bet when push comes to shove they would decline adoption. People want to adopt healthy babies.
And as someone with a mentally challenged sibling can we not use the term “flipper baby”? I know it sounds cool and all but it’s really fucking tasteless.
Can we also accept that recommending that someone abort a child is not the same as forcing someone to?
james
[/quote]
That’s because talk is cheap. There are a lot of people who will tell you they are willing to help and do something, but when it comes down to it they flake out. That’s because caring for someone who is severely disabled is a lot to take on. The fact that babies are more desirable than kids is again a sign the people don’t want to take on problems, they want to start with a clean slate.
I used the term flipper baby because shortened limbs is one of the birth defects that is caused by the anti seizure medication depakote. It may be a bit in poor taste but it is discomforting because it somewhat accurately describes what those meds will do to a developing fetus and people need to be reminded of that.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
I think that if in the first or second trimester you know that that you are going to produce a flipper baby who is going to spend it’s entire existence as a spastic in a wheel chair with a dribble cup under it’s chin, then maybe the most compassionate thing you can do is terminate the pregnancy.[/quote]
Why and how is murdering an innocent person compassionate?
Wow. Did these people you refer to as retarded flipper babies, tell you this?
Did you read the article, the one that you so quickly pointed out I did not read.
Oh, yes. Why would anyone want to adopt a handicap kid, just throw 'em to Moloch. Maybe, because they are a human being and human beings deserve dignity and love. Not everyone sees children as accessories and that if one is not perfect just throw it out. I have several cousins who have adopted, most are disadvantaged kids, whether from foreign countries or handicapped. One, is as you call it, a “retarded flipper baby” and I haven’t seen anyone who takes care of him to consider him a burden.
So far your argument is filled with fallacies. Though, for respect to arguments I hesitate to call it an argument. A child is possibly disabled, therefore it is a retarded flipper baby, therefore will be a burden and have no quality of life, thus we should murder an innocent human being who is defenseless and voiceless. You said you’re not for killing retarded flipper baby, but before you object to that you suggest it and after you say it would be compassionate. So, I do believe that 1) you don’t know if the child will be disabled, 2) even if it is, if the child will be a burden on someone or everyone…so are ALL children a burden on everyone, 3) you a minimum quality of life is better than no quality of life, and 4) as human beings we have recognized that all human beings have a right to life for sometime now. The rejection of that right is the rejection of all other rights none withstanding. This right to life is so much ingrained into us that we put people in jail for trying to break someone’s right and we put those who try to break their own right and fail in lock up for that very reason. We recognize that if someone tries to end their life unnaturally, they likely suffer mental issues. I’ll leave the psychology to someone else, but the fact that there is more at issue than they actually have no quality of life and if that is somehow something we can gauge and determine in order to decide if we should murder someone or not is mind baffling.
Oh, I didn’t know demand was a determinate to if someone had the right to life or not.
Or they can actually be selfless and compassionate.
Please tell us how you determine if someone’s existence is meaningless?
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Do you actually have some data to back up your “fact” that there are six couples willing to adopt a severely deformed baby? I find that hard to believe considering the fact that there are a lot of healthy kids in the adoption system who will never get adopted merely because they are too old and most people only want to adopt babies. [/quote]
As someone who’s gone through the adoption process I can say that this is very true. Statistically speaking these people might be saying this now but I bet when push comes to shove they would decline adoption. People want to adopt healthy babies.
And as someone with a mentally challenged sibling can we not use the term “flipper baby”? I know it sounds cool and all but it’s really fucking tasteless.
Can we also accept that recommending that someone abort a child is not the same as forcing someone to?
james
[/quote]
That’s because talk is cheap. There are a lot of people who will tell you they are willing to help and do something, but when it comes down to it they flake out. That’s because caring for someone who is severely disabled is a lot to take on.[/quote]
Thanks genius. That doesn’t mean they wouldn’t. You both give anecdotal evidence to disprove anecdotal evidence. You have six parents that said, we’ll adopt it…you come along, no you won’t because I adopted children and I can say that you won’t. Great…
How does this prove that there are not six couples in line for this child.
I think he had it right, you’re just tasteless. The fact that you suggested murdering an innocent human being gave it away earlier before you started using the term retarded flipper baby.
Oh, please remind us of these realities with your excellent fallacious statements and anecdotal evidence while tactlessness piled on top.
Sifu did you even read the article you linked? I did. Here are a couple of excerpts. Emphasis mine:
[quote]
Still, the researchers note, the actual frequency of specific birth defects were relatively small, all ranging below one percent. That compares to an overall rate of all birth defects of about 2 percent in the general population.
Since last summer, U.S. guidelines have recommended against using Depakote in pregnancy, but Meador said it was still widely used across the country.
Although a few women with epilepsy may only respond to Depakote, often there are alternatives. “If a drug doesn’t work on a woman, you can try another,” said Meador.[/quote]
Better cut that useless piece of meat out of her. Its existence will certainly be meaningless.
I think that if in the first or second trimester you know that that you are going to produce a flipper baby who is going to spend it’s entire existence as a spastic in a wheel chair with a dribble cup under it’s chin, then maybe the most compassionate thing you can do is terminate the pregnancy. [/quote]
This is a disgusting statement, my friend. I mean, should we do the same thing to the elderly after they have outlived their usefulness? How about a teenager that is crippled and brain-damaged in an auto accident? Should Dr. Hawking’s friends and family have just given up on him because he is such a burden?
All rhetorical, just posting so maybe you’ll think about it. The only difference I can figure is the fact that you haven’t seen the child yet, so;
If they told you that there was a “spastic flipper baby” already in a coffin, and all you had to do was stick a gun in the hole where her head is and pull the trigger, could you do it? You don’t have to look, just BLAM! and we’ll throw some dirt on top of it.
Could you ask someone else to? Could you ask someone else to stick the gun in and fire, even if they didn’t know there was a “spastic flipper baby” in there? How about if the roles were reversed;
Someone asks you to put a gun in a hole and fire a round (just for believability, we’ll say they lie and tell you they’re doing a ballistics experiment), and then they tell you that there was a baby in there. Oh, but don’t worry. It was probably just a spastic flipper baby that would never amount to anything. Yeah, his mom wanted him, but we decided this was best.
Again, I don’t expect a response. Just food for thought.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Sifu, you are normally a rather thoughtful poster on this forum. On this subject you reveal a seriously foolish side of yourself. A shallow intellect apparently hides in there. I’m surprised.[/quote]
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Sifu, you are normally a rather thoughtful poster on this forum. On this subject you reveal a seriously foolish side of yourself. A shallow intellect apparently hides in there. I’m surprised.[/quote]
Simply because he disagrees with your viewpoint?[/quote]
Duh its the T-Nation PWI way (I have quickly learned in a few short hours).
The greatest part of this is BROTHER CHRIS pointing out someone else using “fallacious arguments”…LOL…I have seen a grand total of about 20 of that dude’s posts and could have filled up a Fallacy Bingo card with all his gems.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Sifu, you are normally a rather thoughtful poster on this forum. On this subject you reveal a seriously foolish side of yourself. A shallow intellect apparently hides in there. I’m surprised.[/quote]
Simply because he disagrees with your viewpoint?[/quote]
Duh its the T-Nation PWI way (I have quickly learned in a few short hours).
The greatest part of this is BROTHER CHRIS pointing out someone else using “fallacious arguments”…LOL…I have seen a grand total of about 20 of that dude’s posts and could have filled up a Fallacy Bingo card with all his gems.[/quote]
This one was especially hilarious:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
However, if the courts do go through with the decision the title will be apt. [/quote]
Uhhh yeah guys…so like, I know the title is just an attention grabber and isnt actually true, but…umm…like…it might be true one day, so I figured it was a good title to put on here…yeah.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Sifu, you are normally a rather thoughtful poster on this forum. On this subject you reveal a seriously foolish side of yourself. A shallow intellect apparently hides in there. I’m surprised.[/quote]
Simply because he disagrees with your viewpoint?[/quote]
Duh its the T-Nation PWI way (I have quickly learned in a few short hours).
The greatest part of this is BROTHER CHRIS pointing out someone else using “fallacious arguments”…LOL…I have seen a grand total of about 20 of that dude’s posts and could have filled up a Fallacy Bingo card with all his gems.[/quote]
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Sifu, you are normally a rather thoughtful poster on this forum. On this subject you reveal a seriously foolish side of yourself. A shallow intellect apparently hides in there. I’m surprised.[/quote]
Simply because he disagrees with your viewpoint?[/quote]
Duh its the T-Nation PWI way (I have quickly learned in a few short hours).
The greatest part of this is BROTHER CHRIS pointing out someone else using “fallacious arguments”…LOL…I have seen a grand total of about 20 of that dude’s posts and could have filled up a Fallacy Bingo card with all his gems.[/quote]
This one was especially hilarious:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
However, if the courts do go through with the decision the title will be apt. [/quote]
Uhhh yeah guys…so like, I know the title is just an attention grabber and isnt actually true, but…umm…like…it might be true one day, so I figured it was a good title to put on here…yeah.
[/quote]
I’m not sure if you’re comfortable with the term hyperbole. But, it’s not exactly a fallacy. Alas, it is not surprising that two left wing liberals have now brought up the title of this thread rather than the situation or anyone’s argument (I suppose Sifu tried to, but just resorted to attempting to dehumanize an unborn child by calling it “retarded flipper baby”).
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Brother Chris you really should have read the article before you posted this and spared us the hyperbole.[/quote]
Lol. You should really read my post before you posted this as you would have been spared the hyperbole. However, if the courts do go through with the decision the title will be apt. One of my predictions about the culture of death (if left unchecked) in America is that it will lead to forced abortions for certain underrepresented and underprivileged citizens.
[quote]Your thread title is very misleading. You make it appear that an abortion has already been ordered when that is not the case.
After reading the article I have learned that the the mother to be is herself an Fetal Alcohol Syndrome baby who was born severely brain damaged. She doesn’t have all her faculties and she is on anti epileptic seizure meds. Since the woman is not capable of making such decisions for herself the court is involved.
I know someone who suffers from grand mal epileptic seizures and has to take anti seizure meds. These are very powerful drugs that target the brain. No one who has all their faculties would just get pregnant while on those meds without consulting with a doctor and making any necessary adjustments to their medication or going off the meds altogether. This is because epileptics have a higher risk of complications from pregnancy and epileptic anti seizure meds can cause severe birth defects.
Given the facts I don’t think it is unreasonable that they would have a hearing to decide what is going to happen. [/quote]
So you’re down with killing innocent people because they have mental problems and severe birth defects. [/quote]
There are inherent risks and complications that can happen to a pregnant woman who has epilepsy. A seizure while pregnant can be dangerous to the mother or the baby. Even worse is the anti seizure meds can cause severe birth defects, especially if she is on a high dose at the time of conception. That is why a woman who has all her faculties will consult with her doctor and take necessary steps to minimize the risks to herself and the baby such as reducing or adjusting her medication.
The woman in this case does not have all her faculties and is not capable of making her own decisions. That is why the court is involved. It is an unfortunate situation that would not have happened if the woman had the mental capacity to be a responsible adult.
Here is an article on the dangers of just one of the drugs that are used in combination to prevent seizures. This is why the court has to consider what to do about her pregnancy.
(Reuters Health) - The safety of a popular drug for seizures took another hit Wednesday when researchers pinned a handful of major birth defects on the medication.
Earlier research had shown that taking Depakote (valproate) during pregnancy might lower the baby’s IQ and lead to deformities in up to one in ten cases. (See Reuters Health story April 16, 2009.)
Scientists have long known about one of these malformations, called spina bifida, in which the fetus’ spinal column doesn’t close properly. But it was unclear whether the drug was linked to other birth defects, such as heart problems or extra short limbs.
Writing in the New England Journal of Medicine, European researchers report an increased risk of six different birth defects in babies whose mothers took Depakote during their first trimester of pregnancy.
The odds of spina bifida, for instance, were more than 12 times higher in these babies compared to those whose mothers didn’t take epilepsy drugs. Abnormal skull development, cleft palate, holes in the heart’s walls, extra fingers or toes, smaller limbs, and urinary problems were also more frequent in the Depakote group, with odds increased up to seven times.
No I’m not down with killing people because they have mental problems or birth defects. But I do think that having children is a responsibility that should not be taken lightly. Getting pregnant while on a combination of medications that are likely to cause you to have a retarded flipper baby who will have no quality of life and be a burden on everyone who has to pay for it’s care is irresponsible and it’s not fair either. [/quote]
So you’re cool with killing retarded flipper baby who has no quality of life and is a burden on everyone?
The fact that there is six couples willing to adopt the baby obvious is not an issue, of course.[/quote]
Yeah - I think it is incredibly cruel to bring something which will have no quality of life into the world, and that will most likely suffer considerably over their life.
Plenty of disabled kids gets born because its ‘not moral’ to have an abortion, then after 10 or so years of expensive medical treatment, extended hospital stays, a complete lack of autonomy on the part of the child, a large amount of pain and a vast amount of doctors time wasted, the kid dies.
Looks like the Courts believe they can force people to kill innocent humans.[/quote]
If I read that article right, they aren’t forcing her to do anything. They are investigating. While I agree with you at first look, let’s not start yelling fire in a movie theater.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
I think that if in the first or second trimester you know that that you are going to produce a flipper baby who is going to spend it’s entire existence as a spastic in a wheel chair with a dribble cup under it’s chin, then maybe the most compassionate thing you can do is terminate the pregnancy.[/quote]
Why and how is murdering an innocent person compassionate?
Wow. Did these people you refer to as retarded flipper babies, tell you this?
Did you read the article, the one that you so quickly pointed out I did not read.
Oh, yes. Why would anyone want to adopt a handicap kid, just throw 'em to Moloch. Maybe, because they are a human being and human beings deserve dignity and love. Not everyone sees children as accessories and that if one is not perfect just throw it out. I have several cousins who have adopted, most are disadvantaged kids, whether from foreign countries or handicapped. One, is as you call it, a “retarded flipper baby” and I haven’t seen anyone who takes care of him to consider him a burden.
So far your argument is filled with fallacies. Though, for respect to arguments I hesitate to call it an argument. A child is possibly disabled, therefore it is a retarded flipper baby, therefore will be a burden and have no quality of life, thus we should murder an innocent human being who is defenseless and voiceless. You said you’re not for killing retarded flipper baby, but before you object to that you suggest it and after you say it would be compassionate. So, I do believe that 1) you don’t know if the child will be disabled, 2) even if it is, if the child will be a burden on someone or everyone…so are ALL children a burden on everyone, 3) you a minimum quality of life is better than no quality of life, and 4) as human beings we have recognized that all human beings have a right to life for sometime now. The rejection of that right is the rejection of all other rights none withstanding. This right to life is so much ingrained into us that we put people in jail for trying to break someone’s right and we put those who try to break their own right and fail in lock up for that very reason. We recognize that if someone tries to end their life unnaturally, they likely suffer mental issues. I’ll leave the psychology to someone else, but the fact that there is more at issue than they actually have no quality of life and if that is somehow something we can gauge and determine in order to decide if we should murder someone or not is mind baffling.
Oh, I didn’t know demand was a determinate to if someone had the right to life or not.
Or they can actually be selfless and compassionate.
Please tell us how you determine if someone’s existence is meaningless? [/quote]
What I mean by is going forward with a pregnancy when it is known early on that it is going to be severely deformed and disabled is mean. No one wants to live like that.
Then there are all the resources that are required to care for someone who is severely disabled. There are a lot of healthy kids in this world who we can’t care for already. What it costs to provide lifetime care for one severely disabled kid could be used to lift several healthy kids out of poverty and give them a normal productive life.
Obviously you have never listened to anyone who has a terminal or crippling illness and wants to get it over with. I on the other hand have watched someone who had a terminal illness with no chance of recovery go through a hellish daily existence.
There are a lot of people who would like a way out of that kind of suffering, that is why Jack Kevorkian had so many patients applying to him. Frankly you give the impression that you are one of the people who wanted Kevorkian stopped. Are you one of those people?
Oh you mean this paragraph?
“Her adoptive parents, Catholics Amy and William Bauer, who are her legal guardians, say Elisa wants to have the baby and give it to a married couple for adoption. They say they have lined up six willing couples to adopt the baby.”
I didn’t pay it a lot of attention because talk is cheap. This supposed six couples are not people who have gone through the official adoption channels this is just something the adoptive parents of the woman say they have lined up. So this is not an official number.
Frankly I find it doubtful that there is this number of couples lining up to adopt given the numbers of normal kids in the foster care system who can’t find even one couple to adopt them and that is how I meant that remark. Even if it were an accurate number what have they been told of the baby they are agreeing to adopt? Have they been made fully aware of what they may be agreeing to take on?
No I’m not suggesting making sacrifices to pagan gods. I do make a distinction between someone who has been born and continuing with an early stage fetus that is in a chemically toxic womb. Those anti seizure meds are very toxic, no one in their right mind just flippantly gets pregnant while they are on them.
What I know is there are already millions of kids in this world who don’t have enough to have a normal development and all they get from people like you is fuck em. Their plight isn’t as glamorous as someone who is severely disabled.
Frankly I see a lot of hypocrisy from people who take the position you are taking. You’ll piss and moan about why should I have to give nine dollars a month of my tax money to buy birth control for a woman on welfare when it’s against your beliefs. But when she gets pregnant you’ll give us nine months of lectures about the rights of the unborn. Then the moment the head appears out the birth canal baby is on it’s own and you can go back to pissing and moaning why should my tax money go to pay for another welfare baby. That’s why you are not convincing me and bringing me to your point of view.
My point about demand is you are all eager to get disabled kids born but once that is over you really don’t give a damn if anyone is there to take care of them or if a bunch of healthy kids have to go without in order to take care of it.
On your last point I get the distinct impression you have never spent much time with a disabled person who had a terminal illness. There really is a point where someone is not living a life, they are just existing. For example people in prison are not living they are existing. Or someone with a severe drug addiction, where their whole existence revolves around getting the drug, using the drug, recuperating from the drug so they can start the cycle over again. They aren’t living, they are just existing from one day to the next. If you can’t understand what that kind of bleak reality is like I would say you need to get out into the world a bit more.
Can we stop pretending our interest in seeing the child killed is because it’s in its own interest? They’re revolting to have to see in public. This is an age of materialistic selfishness and vanity, so flipper babies shouldn’t be around to make us squeamish.