[quote]Chushin wrote:
Shoebolt wrote:
Now about the apostasy issue.
Firstly: Did you know?
There is no verse in the Qur’an which commands Muslims to execute apostates.
Yes, I was aware that many say that.
And yet, AFAIK, the 4 major Sunni schools all somehow reach the conclusion that death is appropriate punishment. Is that somehow incorrect?
But one would argue that the Prophet did execute apostates. And this is true, he did.
BUT. That was only a few of them, the vast majority of apostates were not sentenced to death. Why is this?
Read and learn the circumstances upon which those individuals were executed, and you will realize that although they were apostates, their greater crime was not apostasy, it was actually treason.
Ah yes. That political term again.
And not just any treason, their treason was violent, caused disruption in society etc. Almost like terrorism or hate-mongering.
You mean like this, from Wiki:
Some prominent contemporary examples of death sentences threatened or issued for apostasy include Salman Rushdie, who was condemned to death in 1989 by Ayatollah Khomeini,[16] (ruler of Iran at the time) for his book The Satanic Verses; and Abdul Rahman, an Afghan convert to Christianity who was arrested and jailed on the charge of rejecting Islam in 2006 but later released as mentally incompetent
Is that "literary terrorism? What “hate mongering” was Rahman guilty of?
And ALL OF THIS has to be judged and carried through with due legal process by a COURT.
You mean like the Salem witch trials?
Why are people not free to choose whatever beliefs they want to?
Some scholars of Islam say that the apostate should only be executed if:
So some disagree? It’s ok with you that some of your “scholars” feel no need to follow these minimal guidelines? Again, why is a religion involved in TAKING LIFE at all???
- He has been already been taught the religion properly, asked to repent/recant.
- He has committed serious acts of treason/social disruption/violence.
- He continues to spread anti-Muslim hatred despite being asked not to (and this is not the same as suppressing free speech, this individual is free to ask questions and state his views, but not in a way which disrupts society or is abusive, or if he is speaking out of bias, without knowledge, as many of you are doing here).
And of course a judge and a committee of knowledgeable scholars (lawyers if you may) would be investigating this.
Look, I’ll agree that some of what you’ve written slightly mitigates some of my horror at executing people for their beliefs, but again, this mixing of secular and holy, legal and religious is a recipe for the abuse of power, and the oppression of anyone who doesn’t toe the line.
Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to explain your views. I can readily admit that I’ve learned some things and my perspective has changed a bit. (Sorry to ruin the happy delusions of those who claim I’m just a trouble-making bigot!)
It’s been a week of vacation here in Japan, and so I’ve had some time to post recently, but that will be changing soon, and I’ll be much less active going forward (feel free to celebrate 
[/quote]
I have to say you pleasantly surprised me with how forthcoming you are too =) .
As for the Salman Rushdie issue, the fatwa issued in Iran was issued by Shia scholars. Sunni scholars do not consider their legal school of thought (Jafari madhab) to be legitimate.
As for all Sunni schools legitimizing death as punishment for apostasy, I’m not entirely learned on this issue, but what I can tell you is that none of these schools are uniform in their legal conclusions (Within themselves). Also Islamic jurisprudence is not limited by these schools, so even if the originators of these four madhabs made this ruling, it adds weight to their argument but it is not the major determining factor for a legal decision a scholar would make today.
The question you mentioned as to why religion is involved in taking life is not complex, but for me to do that, I have to explain Islamic belief. I think I’m going to start a new thread, because this question along with other members here like Sifu have made me realize that you guys have formed some premature conclusions without actual knowledge on the topic.
To be honest if I knew as much as you guys (from the media and hate-mongering ignorant people etc), I would probably hold the same views towards Islam as you do. I’ll start a new thread that can helpfully help us all to learn more about Islam so we can understand future topics easier