[quote]Chushin wrote:
Shoebolt wrote:
Chushin wrote:
Isn’t that quite a bold statement given the nunber of times that he apparently did kill?
Ok I’m going to briefly go against the advice I gave to my fellow Muslims earlier.
Chushin, if you can kindly provide examples of when the Prophet Muhammad killed without justice.
I’m sure you wouldn’t ask this without knowing what’s coming next, but ok, I’ll play along, and give you 900 examples:
The Banu Qurayza eventually surrendered and all the men, apart from a few who converted to Islam, were beheaded, while the women and children were enslaved.
Thank you. Now please answer the question, why were they all executed? It is up to you to provide the facts you know, because you are the one making the claim. And if you notice, I did say provide examples when the Prophet ordered someone to be killed without justice.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
Shoebolt wrote:
Chushin wrote:
Shoebolt wrote:
Chushin wrote:
Isn’t that quite a bold statement given the nunber of times that he apparently did kill?
Ok I’m going to briefly go against the advice I gave to my fellow Muslims earlier.
Chushin, if you can kindly provide examples of when the Prophet Muhammad killed without justice.
I’m sure you wouldn’t ask this without knowing what’s coming next, but ok, I’ll play along, and give you 900 examples:
The Banu Qurayza eventually surrendered and all the men, apart from a few who converted to Islam, were beheaded, while the women and children were enslaved.
Thank you. Now please answer the question, why were they all executed?
You tell me. They had already surrendered.
And why is a “holy man” involved in such mass murder for ANY reason?
Is forgiveness a part of Islam?[/quote]
Forgiveness is a pivotal part of Islam.
But so is justice.
I added to my post while you were typing this, re read it. I will answer further questions tommorow.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
While you’re at, would you please explain the “death for apostacy” thing?
Thanks.[/quote]
Chushin, I find it interesting how you completely avoided my question and kept going. You should be the one answering it, not me, because you are the one making the claim that such an act was an unjust killing.
Why did the Prophet order the execution of the men of Banu Qurayza?
The tribe had signed a pledge of mutual cooperation with the Prophet (The pledge of Aqabah), under which both agreed to protect each other. During a battle, the entire tribe broke this pledge, and attacked the Muslims instead.
Therefore, the tribe committed treason. And like treason anywhere in the world (including the US), in which the treason involved something so blatant such as a full-fledged battle the punishment for such a crime is undoubtedly death.
This is why they were executed. As for ‘enslaving’ the women and children, this again requires me to write an essay, which I will not. Simply put, slavery in Islam was VERY different from western conceptions of slavery. Slaves under Muslims were more like extensions of family, with their own set of rights (enough rights given so that it can be said Islam is a religion geared towards eliminating slavery) than they were people whipped in corn fields. In fact many slaves of famous companions turned out to be teachers, scholars and important leaders within the Muslim community.
And if the men of this tribe were executed for a crime, then this essentially shows the mercy to take their women and children under the care of the Muslims, who kept slaves as their own family members.
[quote]Rogue57 wrote:
The Quran was compiled like a game of telephone tag…everyone distorting it along the way, interpreting it as they see fit.[/quote]
The burden of proof is upon the individual making the claim. Present your evidence that this is true.
Because any Muslim or even non-Muslim who studies the sciences of Hadeeth (usul-al-hadeeth) can tell you that you are wrong.
There is no verse in the Qur’an which commands Muslims to execute apostates.
But one would argue that the Prophet did execute apostates. And this is true, he did.
BUT. That was only a few of them, the vast majority of apostates were not sentenced to death. Why is this?
Read and learn the circumstances upon which those individuals were executed, and you will realize that although they were apostates, their greater crime was not apostasy, it was actually treason.
And not just any treason, their treason was violent, caused disruption in society etc. Almost like terrorism or hate-mongering.
And ALL OF THIS has to be judged and carried through with due legal process by a COURT. If an individual Muslim goes and kills an apostate, this Muslim has committed murder. the allegation, verdict, and sentencing can only occur through due process and through a court.
Some scholars of Islam say that the apostate should only be executed if:
He has been already been taught the religion properly, asked to repent/recant.
He has committed serious acts of treason/social disruption/violence.
He continues to spread anti-Muslim hatred despite being asked not to (and this is not the same as suppressing free speech, this individual is free to ask questions and state his views, but not in a way which disrupts society or is abusive, or if he is speaking out of bias, without knowledge, as many of you are doing here).
And of course a judge and a committee of knowledgeable scholars (lawyers if you may) would be investigating this.
An example from the authenticated hadeeth of the Prophet is that when a man in Madinah apostated from Islam, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) neither ordered his execution nor punished him in any other way, and when the man finally left Madinah, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) never sent anyone to arrest him or punish him because of his apostasy.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
yusef wrote:
Have you been listening Gkhan?
If you have a genuine interest or aren’t afraid of learning or challenging your view, do what IrishSteel did and go to a mosque. Ask a scholar.
Yusef, you seem like a good person, and you’ve been only reasonable in this discussion (apart from your first note to me! so I don’t want you to think I’m picking on you in some way, but these things must be asked / pointed out:
These “scholars” for whom you seemingly have such respect; these are the same people who have concluded that aposty deserves death, that (in Saudi Arabia) girls less than 10 years old can be married, that (in the case of Khomenni) a book writer deserves to die. Am I wrong about this? How can you get guidance from people like this? [/quote]
Now that you mention it, I remember when I was a child there was a singer who called himself Cat Stevens and wrote a song called Peace Train
Then in 1977 he converted to Islam and changed his name to Yusuf Islam. Then didn’t sound quite so peaceful. Because he said the Salman Rushdie deserved to die for insulting a prophet.
[quote]
2. Your suggestion of asking at a mosque didn’t work out for Irish because he got 2 different answers from the “experts” there. Honestly, sometimes it seems that Islam is whatever the hell a given individual wants it to be.
Thus I expect at least part of your answer to my question above to be, "Those are the wrong “scholars.” How on earth can one ever know if his particular “expert” is a trustworthy guide?
Personally, I couldn’t care less if Muslims worship Dorian Yates in a pink cocktail dress, but so long as a significant number of them use violence, oppression, abuse and intimidation in the name of “Islam” and with the approval of their leaders, the religion concerns me. [/quote]
[quote]Shoebolt wrote:
Chushin wrote:
While you’re at, would you please explain the “death for apostacy” thing?
Thanks.
Chushin, I find it interesting how you completely avoided my question and kept going. You should be the one answering it, not me, because you are the one making the claim that such an act was an unjust killing.
Why did the Prophet order the execution of the men of Banu Qurayza?
The tribe had signed a pledge of mutual cooperation with the Prophet (The pledge of Aqabah), under which both agreed to protect each other. During a battle, the entire tribe broke this pledge, and attacked the Muslims instead.
Therefore, the tribe committed treason. And like treason anywhere in the world (including the US), in which the treason involved something so blatant such as a full-fledged battle the punishment for such a crime is undoubtedly death.
This is why they were executed. As for ‘enslaving’ the women and children, this again requires me to write an essay, which I will not. Simply put, slavery in Islam was VERY different from western conceptions of slavery. Slaves under Muslims were more like extensions of family, with their own set of rights (enough rights given so that it can be said Islam is a religion geared towards eliminating slavery) than they were people whipped in corn fields. In fact many slaves of famous companions turned out to be teachers, scholars and important leaders within the Muslim community.
And if the men of this tribe were executed for a crime, then this essentially shows the mercy to take their women and children under the care of the Muslims, who kept slaves as their own family members.
[/quote]
So it was a kinder, gentler, slavery. Interesting. So why do the negroes get so uppity about it?
So it was a kinder, gentler, slavery. Interesting. So why do the negroes get so uppity about it?[/quote]
Because in Europe and North America the Islamic version of ‘slavery’ is viewed through the historical lens of slavery as practiced by the Americans and Europeans (e.g. black slavery over the past 2-300 years).
Interestingly, the majority of converts to Islam in North America are actually black, I have several friends myself who are such.
[quote]Shoebolt wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Shoebolt wrote:
Forgiveness is a pivotal part of Islam.
But so is justice.
Please explain why enslaving a child because they do not accept Islam is justice.
Wow. Provide examples?[/quote]
You said the Prophet did not kill or enslave anyone without justice. Those were your words. Now explain why enslaving a child is justice. Or are you debating the reality of this incident. ie, it did not happen?–edit, never mind. read your other reply. thanks.
so I don’t want you to think I’m picking on you in some way, but these things must be asked / pointed out: