[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Israel could disappear and there would still be Islamic terrorism in Chechnya, Kashmir, Iraq, Afghanistan etc…[/quote]
I’m only guessing, but I think Israel is basically one of, if not the, root propaganda tool. The hatred in the region is palpable.
I listen to local people talk on the news, being interviewed, and the years of believing propaganda is clear as day to me.
It’s just as clear that the media will hype anything and make a complete farce out of the situation so that the general person can barely tell what is involved at all.
Anyway, to go back a page or two, any solution I’m talking about is generational. New generations, growing up and becoming innoculated against fundamentalism, would hold different ideals and different thoughts for the future.
They’d have to grow up not believing every bit of nonsense about the evil western.
Back to another point, Danny, you say that genocide is certainly a moral line, an evil, but so is terrorism. We’ve already got one side that has no problem crossing that line. That thought, and their desire for a nuclear weapon, and their expressed desire to flex their terroristic capabilities worldwide, causes issues.
When someone is already at war with you, as much as you may want peace, you may also have to choose war.
I still think it would be a lot less costly, and basically a zero risk strategy, to get some serious informational efforts out there. But no, the world will march towards war, and its consequences, happily.
If you were neutral, we would be able to see it in your language. Instead, as ever, you try to justify terrorism, but at the same time attempt to slap labels on people that point this out.
Grow up.
I expect that most of the Arab world believes that all fault lies at the hands of Israel. I am so offended when I hear Hezbollah characterize itself as fighting a resistence in this effort.
They attacked another country and launch rockets at civilians, and they say they are resisting? Israel doesn’t want their stinking land. What the fuck are they resisting? Peace was so available, so close, between Israel and Lebanon. Why did Hezbollah have to screw it up?
The wordplay is attrocious and chosen to garner the most sympathy from those in the region and around the world who don’t know better. If you don’t want to be counted in that group, then choose your words and arguments a little more carefully.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Anyway, to go back a page or two, any solution I’m talking about is generational. New generations, growing up and becoming innoculated against fundamentalism, would hold different ideals and different thoughts for the future.
They’d have to grow up not believing every bit of nonsense about the evil western.
[/quote]
That is spot on.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Back to another point, Danny, you say that genocide is certainly a moral line, an evil, but so is terrorism. We’ve already got one side that has no problem crossing that line. That thought, and their desire for a nuclear weapon, and their expressed desire to flex their terroristic capabilities worldwide, causes issues.
[/quote]
Are you talking about Iran?
Do you mean the newspaper idea you had? If it was secular, non-positional and generally cool and tolerant, i think this would be a good idea.
Let me have a look at my language…
" If you believe that only one side in a war (this one, or any) has any cause for grievance/self righteousness, I believe your wars will never end."
“The fact is, to you, it’s either a mystery, or entire fault at your opponents, which starts/perpetuates wars. For me, it’s the effects of previous injustices/social conditions.”
" I believe war will beget war. And punishing terrorists by ‘terrorising’ them with a bigger war- will teach them what? DO YOU SMACK YOUR CHILDREN?"
" the fact is that diplomatic efforts have been rejected by Israel, any time the arabs were willing to settle, not because they were asking for anything unreasonable (usual requests were 44% of their former country, the right to elect a representative government, and neccessary human supplies)" I believe this last point is the most controversial maybe or only dubious comment. This is in reference to things i’ve read about world conferences, often involving the USA, Israel and the PLO. That is not to say that because these diplomatic efforts have failed, that could now, or ever, entitle anyone to take lives, in whatever manner available/chosen. Where my conversation with hyspdegr (?) is relevant here, is that we talked about the UN becoming more involved with the whole struggle against war and terrorists killing and everybody getting upset and besieged. If the UN made a strong move, things might have a better hope of going forward.
I looked at my language in terms of words i chose for a descriptive or emotive effect, and they seem more dramatic than accusatory. They have often been reproachful. (Not so much in the posts from the 1st page above, i got lazy)I don’t think this is so much a problem in discussion with other people, but i don’t like to see it in newspapers. Who could say they don’t use emotive words when they’re passionate about a subject? Please forget about what i’m saying though to anyone who’s interested, read Banal Nationalism by Billig, and Ideology by Teujen Van Dijk. I think they’d appeal to you. What else?
[quote]
I expect that most of the Arab world believes that all fault lies at the hands of Israel. I am so offended when I hear Hezbollah characterize itself as fighting a resistence in this effort.
They attacked another country and launch rockets at civilians, and they say they are resisting?[/quote]
Well, lots have people have pointed out that there is a general incongruity in that region. I ask you this. If two people with different opinions and interests live together, surely there will be disagreement. If there is a mjority in one direction, what do we do then? Modify the whole region, to become more agreeable in nature to that of the new arrival? Would i change all of your opinions on this, if my only tactic was forceful resitance, against any opponent?
What If i was Israel? It was a nice idea, but really, flawed. Now we’re all scared, and there’s an area of teh world consumed by war (you all called it war right, that terrorism is war?) Terrorism is war so a war takes peoples lives. Shelling places just like that because you don’t want to risk the lives of your people- You’ll kill a lot of innocents. If you only have small numbers, you’ll stay fighting in this way (i guess, it makes sense doesn’t it?), guerilla terrorism, blending into the crowd, lashing out at whatever innocents you can find. It doesn’t have to be blame given to Israel, if one man wants to kill, he is guilty of murder.
Israel and some of the arab countries there have got into fighting a war of ideology and land claims, neocolonial accusations etc. Why else did the arabs attack when Israel first moved in, and then in the Six Day War? They didn’t want to 'exterminate the jews/Israelis. They wanted the land vacated. Sounds like 'into the sea doesn’t it. I’m just saying they were motivated by getting land, it wasn’t about any of the listed reasons by people other than me- “establishing a caliphate”, “destruction of Israel”, “they were born with hatred” etc. So anyway, you’re a man who in the course of his life has been really pissed off at something, and gone to see a wizened old revolutionary terrorist bastard, who taught him how to make bombs and attack a country/presence who all his parents and elders have told him are responsible for the soldiers on the street, the shellings, and invasions, and roadblocks. But that is true, isn’t it. If you say no, it’s the fault of the terrorists who are older than him, that’s true. But look at this, the character could easily grow up and just see a few people he loves die and he’ll start doing terrorist shit himself, swinging figuratively druunk at the collosus that scarred his youth. I’d like to stop this cycle. I don’t want young people being in an environment where all the people are filled with hate and nationalism. You made a really god point about the press vroom. That shapes minds…
Remember (this is important) the kid’s now a terrorist, he looks just like many men his age in the area, so blends in. This also means that out of suspicion and fear, some innocent, non-activists he knows may die at the barrel of an Israeli gun. He’ll strike back doubly, and won’t get into the open war that has always been fought by the other side. each side will have limited success in wiping out the others combatants. So what big, open war, concurrent with bloody, vile, insidious, regular terrorist bombs in social places, and fired from inside the Palestine and Lebanon borders. Israel is really in a bad strategic position for terrorism, they are all over, palestine has several borders with it, and Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt and because of the Golan Heights, Syria. I don’t think these are the borders you want to defend against terrorism.
Israeli youth too are seeing random, sudden explosions in places where they don’t expect war. They are scared, then angry, then violent. The violently/inclined can go in the army. Or, by the looks of some Israeli soldiers i’ve seen, the apathetic and weary can also join the army. These will die too, so your cousin, brother or whatever could have been killed. You’re also really pissed off probably. All your life there’s been violence and terrorism. This is where you can come in and talk about how these young people have a bad time, and it’s true. No-one should have to die at the market, or in a banquet hall.
I don’t have time to talk more, this is maybe the longest post i’ve ever made. My writing is eloquent and perspicacious, though loquacious.
The other causes you speak of zap, that’s in the future for the other countries, first no more emnity between Israel and its bordering countries. That is the threatened state. Like i said before with the huge coming Palestinian birth rate, and even arabs inside Israel, we should institute good education that in no way expresses hate. Go in with small elite groups of soldiers, who are backed by good intelligence (intelligent) about who is a terrorist and who is a civilian. kill them or capture if somehow possible. If someone would die to kill innocents, they should die unsatisfied. That’s the only maxim i want to see. No ‘Nuke them all’ or shit like that. I think tanks and shit bombarding Lebanon/Gaza is not a good plan. It creates more hating than the hate it kills. But it has to be stopped (terrorism). Is that clear?
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
vroom wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Israel could disappear and there would still be Islamic terrorism in Chechnya, Kashmir, Iraq, Afghanistan etc…
I’m only guessing, but I think Israel is basically one of, if not the, root propaganda tool. The hatred in the region is palpable.
I listen to local people talk on the news, being interviewed, and the years of believing propaganda is clear as day to me.
…
Absolutely. Of course if Israel was not there they would be using another excuse.
This is going to take a long time to overcome.[/quote]
The gist is we (US & Israel) are now on the side of God fighting the “evil” Muslim terrorists.
According to your Christian beliefs – in the end times you will be REQUIRED by the rule of the anti-Christ to take the “mark of the beast” for identification purposes. Without it you will not be able to buy, sell, trade or function in the cashless society.
At what point are the Muslims to seize control of the world monetary system?
[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
The gist is we (US & Israel) are now on the side of God fighting the “evil” Muslim terrorists.
According to your Christian beliefs – in the end times you will be REQUIRED by the rule of the anti-Christ to take the “mark of the beast” for identification purposes. Without it you will not be able to buy, sell, trade or function in the cashless society.
At what point are the Muslims to seize control of the world monetary system?
[/quote]
References to the Tri-Lateral COmmission aside - You are transposing the use of God from the Islamo-Nazis onto US/Israel.
At the very least admit that the jihad against Israel and The Great Satan is every bit as religiously motivated as you are accusing the US and Israel of.
I have yet to hear Rice, or any of the Diplomats call this a holy war in public dialogue. The same cannot be said for the Islamo-Nazis.
The current Arab world is liken to a bees nest. Let me explain this brilliat analogy with a story
There was a man he lived in a house and liked hony to put in his tea. He owned a peice of property. he had several bees nests there. The bees regularly let him harvest honey. But there was trouble brewing in the nest. A new type of bee, an africanzed bee, more aggressive and nastier was begining to take over the nest. Whenever the man tried to take honey like before he was met with added resistance everytime. Soon the whole nest was Africanized. The man had tried feeble attempts to destroy the nests with hand held sprays and garden hoses. One day the man was brutally attacked and nearly died. The next the day the man had it. He torced the nest after cutting out of a tree and putting it a garbage pale. The man didn’t have anymore honey, but the man did have his life, his home, and his property.
[quote]vroom wrote:
doogie wrote:
Better to fight a bunch of hate filled kooks strapping bombs to themselves than to fight a rational, united Arab world.
Maybe, but I think if they weren’t filled with hate and propaganda, that there wouldn’t be any need to fight them at all.
[/quote]
And if the U.S. wasn’t so filled with propaganda we wouldn’t have invaded Iraq. If the public actually had the truth they never would have let it happen.
[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
vroom wrote:
doogie wrote:
Better to fight a bunch of hate filled kooks strapping bombs to themselves than to fight a rational, united Arab world.
Maybe, but I think if they weren’t filled with hate and propaganda, that there wouldn’t be any need to fight them at all.
And if the U.S. wasn’t so filled with propaganda we wouldn’t have invaded Iraq. If the public actually had the truth they never would have let it happen.
[/quote]
Well fucke me - I haven’t heard the “Bush Lied People Died” bullshit in the last couple of weeks.
Move on - it just makes you look really pathertic.
[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
And if the U.S. wasn’t so filled with propaganda we wouldn’t have invaded Iraq. If the public actually had the truth they never would have let it happen.[/quote]
I think the US was filled with fear because of 9/11, check your facts. Somehow, I don’t think 9/11 qualifies as propaganda.
Now, while I generally agree that the US should not have invaded Iraq, because I don’t feel it was a direct threat with respect to terrorism, it doesn’t really have much to do with this discussion, either.
–
Anyway, to go back to a point, I keep being surprised by the ability to back up calling people like Hezbollah freedom fighters when they invaded another country and started launching rockets at civilians.
They already had freedom. What they wanted instead was a war. How hard is it to look at the words, the logic, and the action and come to this conclusion? Come on people, don’t let your own anti-west viewpoint cloud your thinking.
After watching CNN today, I almost get the feeling that the US and the UN should just walk away. The Arab world completely ignores and discounts the humanitarian efforts, the fact that the US has risked the lives of their soldiers for Arabic countries in the past (hello, Kuwait) and so on.
For shit sake, they are busy rioting at the UN complex in Lebanon, as if the UN is at fault for anything, having it’s own civilians bombed recently.
The Islamic fundamentalists really need to stop being shielded from the results of their acts of war against the west. Holy shit, I’ve never seen so much crying and bullshit from grown men as all these fucking whiners.
They already had freedom. What they wanted instead was a war. How hard is it to look at the words, the logic, and the action and come to this conclusion? Come on people, don’t let your own anti-west viewpoint cloud your thinking.
After watching CNN today, I almost get the feeling that the US and the UN should just walk away. The Arab world completely ignores and discounts the humanitarian efforts, the fact that the US has risked the lives of their soldiers for Arabic countries in the past (hello, Kuwait) and so on.
For shit sake, they are busy rioting at the UN complex in Lebanon, as if the UN is at fault for anything, having it’s own civilians bombed recently.
The Islamic fundamentalists really need to stop being shielded from the results of their acts of war against the west. Holy shit, I’ve never seen so much crying and bullshit from grown men as all these fucking whiners.[/quote]
Haha. Haha. My countrymen got me into being imlicated in a war with a pawn of the biggest bully in the world. Now we can’t back out of it. I’m innocent, but my wife got her face blown off this morning. Haha. Haha (is this what you expect? Come on man, grown men will cry if the shit gets deep enough)
"
They already had freedom. What they wanted instead was a war. How hard is it to look at the words, the logic, and the action and come to this conclusion? Come on people, don’t let your own anti-west viewpoint cloud your thinking." Do you say this because they were firing solitary rockets into Israel, and generally doing terrorist shit (which is war?) ? Because i think that’s a bit flippant. Why would they want a war? Their whole M.O. has expressed their awareness of their own feebleness in open conflict. Now they’re going to have to fight on Israeli terms, and will lose. Hopefully there will be a diplomatic alternative for any people in the region who wish to argue with the hegemony, soon after the total destruction of southern Lebanon