Countering Decades Of Propaganda

[quote]rainjack wrote:
total extermination sounds like the ultimate battle plan of Iran, Syria, and most of the rest of the area.[/quote]

Exactly my point.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I also think that if the U.S. had acted more forcefully during the infancy of the modern islamo-nazi-terrorist movement back in the '70’s, things would be much much different today, but we were too worried about exploring diplomatic means. [/quote]

Maybe, maybe not – it’s really pointless to argue about what we could have done in the past… the situation now is different, and hence we might need to adopt some fresh thinking.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Because if you mean a genocide against Muslims, then you’re talking about some Armageddon “Book of Revelations” type shit. [/quote]

As rainjack correctly pointed out, the plan of fundamentalist Muslims is exactly to enact a genocide on the Jewish people. There are some very deep religious beliefs behind that, which are very hard to change.

As is apparent with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and now with the war in Lebanon, currently there seems to be an endless supply of Muslim fundamentalists – you kill one, two will immediately volunteer to replace him.

My point is basically that if we cannot break that supply – the solution vroom is focusing on, and which I supported with the question “how do we fill the void that is being filled now with fundamentalist propaganda?” – the alternative is genocide… of all Muslims, i.e., until there is no one with any shred of faith that the Jewish people are fundamentally wrong and evil (which is, like it or not, at the cornerstone of Islamic faith).

I am perfectly aware that is a monstrous task (in all senses of the word) and very much akin to the Final Solution – and it is exactly because it such a horrible option – one that I honestly would think nobody in their right mind is REALLY considering – that I agree with the root of vroom’s approach to the problem, and that I believe that war is far from a solution in itself, unless you are willing to accept the option of genocide.

[quote]hedo wrote:
hspder wrote:
hedo wrote:
Why should we offer anything Hspder?

If it’s something they need and we can offer, why NOT?

hedo wrote:
What will they give to us should be the question? Why should the US or Israel seek terms?

How about they offer a rejection of terrorism? Stop attacking US and Israeli interests? Turn over all wanted terrorists…then we will consider mutually beneficial pacts?

That is not a solution – it might be an action, it might be even the moral thing to do, but it has no long term effects. I’m not saying I disagree with that action, I’m just saying that it is not, in itself, a solution.

I would argue that the world would trip over itself trying to help them if the nations of the Middle East would agree to terms such as these.

I’d also point out that until they agree in principal to do so, peace is not possible. We are under no obligation to help them until they agree to renounce terrorism. To help them before they do so is counter productive and only prolongs the conflict.

[/quote]
Peace in the Middle East depends on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict being resolved.

As long as the West Bank is occupied by Israel, terrorism will continue to be exported to other countries thanks to Al Jazeera and Co.

Israel is not ready to get out of the West Bank because of it’s multiple colonies AND Hamas is not ready to renounce to terrorism since they see themselves as freedom fighters.

So, we’ve got a stalemate where the whole world is hostage.

Somebody has to give in.

[quote]hspder wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Because if you mean a genocide against Muslims, then you’re talking about some Armageddon “Book of Revelations” type shit.

As rainjack correctly pointed out, the plan of fundamentalist Muslims is exactly to enact a genocide on the Jewish people. There are some very deep religious beliefs behind that, which are very hard to change.

As is apparent with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and now with the war in Lebanon, currently there seems to be an endless supply of Muslim fundamentalists – you kill one, two will immediately volunteer to replace him.

My point is basically that if we cannot break that supply – the solution vroom is focusing on, and which I supported with the question “how do we fill the void that is being filled now with fundamentalist propaganda?” – the alternative is genocide… of all Muslims, i.e., until there is no one with any shred of faith that the Jewish people are fundamentally wrong and evil (which is, like it or not, at the cornerstone of Islamic faith).

I am perfectly aware that is a monstrous task (in all senses of the word) and very much akin to the Final Solution – and it is exactly because it such a horrible option – one that I honestly would think nobody in their right mind is REALLY considering – that I agree with the root of vroom’s approach to the problem, and that I believe that war is far from a solution in itself, unless you are willing to accept the option of genocide.
[/quote]

Damn…

[quote]vroom wrote:

I am leery. As long as the engines of anger, hatred and war are purring away over there,

profits are eploding

[quote]hspder wrote:

I am perfectly aware that is a monstrous task (in all senses of the word) and very much akin to the Final Solution – and it is exactly because it such a horrible option – one that I honestly would think nobody in their right mind is REALLY considering – that I agree with the root of vroom’s approach to the problem, and that I believe that war is far from a solution in itself, unless you are willing to accept the option of genocide.
[/quote]

I don’t think we can ever change the hearts and minds of the followers of “radical Islam.” There will always be a large percentage of Muslims who want to exterminate the Jewish people, no matter how educated they become.

Short of genocide, the only solution I can see lies in the West finding the will to make life so miserable for people in the countries where terrorists are allowed to operate or which fund terrorism (including Saudi Arabia) that these small scale terrorist activities (suicide bombings, IEDs, random rocket attacks) end.

That means everyone in those countries is our enemy until the terrorism stops. No trying to win “hearts and minds.” I’m talking about the modern equivalent of Sherman’s March to the Sea or the bombing of Dresden. No long term occupation beyond the oil fields, just destruction each and every time an act of terrorism occurs.

It would be brutal, but it’s the only way I see this crap ending. Eventually, technology would allow some tiny group of wackos to develop a nuke under our noses and things would get even worse. However we could delay that for decades if we were willing to keep them in the stone age.

[quote]hspder wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Because if you mean a genocide against Muslims, then you’re talking about some Armageddon “Book of Revelations” type shit.

As rainjack correctly pointed out, the plan of fundamentalist Muslims is exactly to enact a genocide on the Jewish people. There are some very deep religious beliefs behind that, which are very hard to change.

As is apparent with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and now with the war in Lebanon, currently there seems to be an endless supply of Muslim fundamentalists – you kill one, two will immediately volunteer to replace him.

My point is basically that if we cannot break that supply – the solution vroom is focusing on, and which I supported with the question “how do we fill the void that is being filled now with fundamentalist propaganda?” – the alternative is genocide… of all Muslims, i.e., until there is no one with any shred of faith that the Jewish people are fundamentally wrong and evil (which is, like it or not, at the cornerstone of Islamic faith).

I am perfectly aware that is a monstrous task (in all senses of the word) and very much akin to the Final Solution – and it is exactly because it such a horrible option – one that I honestly would think nobody in their right mind is REALLY considering – that I agree with the root of vroom’s approach to the problem, and that I believe that war is far from a solution in itself, unless you are willing to accept the option of genocide.
[/quote]

That is the wrong option.

Ironically, I was reading TIME magazine right after I finished reading your comments, and there was a big spread in there about Lebanon…women with massiver burns on their faces crying over their dead fathers and sisters, fathers trying to get their children out of the cities before the Israeli bombs, and a shattered landscape that looks like Nagasaki.

I, for one, will support no genocides against any race, especially not in support of Israel.

The fact that this could be suggested as a viable alternative speaks volumes…

[quote]doogie wrote:
hspder wrote:

I am perfectly aware that is a monstrous task (in all senses of the word) and very much akin to the Final Solution – and it is exactly because it such a horrible option – one that I honestly would think nobody in their right mind is REALLY considering – that I agree with the root of vroom’s approach to the problem, and that I believe that war is far from a solution in itself, unless you are willing to accept the option of genocide.

I don’t think we can ever change the hearts and minds of the followers of “radical Islam.” There will always be a large percentage of Muslims who want to exterminate the Jewish people, no matter how educated they become.

Short of genocide, the only solution I can see lies in the West finding the will to make life so miserable for people in the countries where terrorists are allowed to operate or which fund terrorism (including Saudi Arabia) that these small scale terrorist activities (suicide bombings, IEDs, random rocket attacks) end.

That means everyone in those countries is our enemy until the terrorism stops. No trying to win “hearts and minds.” I’m talking about the modern equivalent of Sherman’s March to the Sea or the bombing of Dresden. No long term occupation beyond the oil fields, just destruction each and every time an act of terrorism occurs.

It would be brutal, but it’s the only way I see this crap ending. Eventually, technology would allow some tiny group of wackos to develop a nuke under our noses and things would get even worse. However we could delay that for decades if we were willing to keep them in the stone age.[/quote]

I agree somewhat. However, you are still looking at this in terms of conventional warfare.

Sherman’s March to the Sea was important because not only did it destroy the rail/industrial center of the South, but it cut communications and divided the South into thirds.

There is no such thing with these terrorists. They have no industry, they live in shit, their lines of communication cannot feasibly be cut, and they blend back into the population.

Fighting them with a conventional army turns into another Vietnam, where they trade space for time and fight an incredibly expensive (for us) war of attrition.

It’s hard for me to say what will fix it. They are a thousand years behind America in all aspects- therefore, trying to force democracy on them is ridiculous. It’s not what they are used to, and it’s not what they will respond too. In America or Britain, capitalism took over at the same time that the ideas of democracy were developing, and great philosophers like Rousseau and Paine and Locke were writing their treatises.

There has been none of that in the Muslim world; thought is stifled in favor of religion.

However, we can’t forget that once Europe was like this, and it took years to come out of it. Their were certainly radical sects of Christianity (still are, of course) that wanted to kill the Jews, there was the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the burning of scientists at the stake, and the acquisence of the Church with Hitler in the '40s.

What’s brought Europe out of the Church’s dominace is the vein of Social Democracy that they have, and America is getting away from religion because our lives are comfortable enough to where we don’t need it so much to comfort us with hopes of an afterlife.

People grasp religion when they are living in shit, like Ireland in the last millenium or the Muslims now. And just as the Catholic Church no longer dominates Ireland because of the economy that is far better, when the Muslim standard of living gets better because of Western ideals, Islam will dominate far less.

Of course, who knows how long this could take.

Just my thoughts.

[quote]k.elkouhen wrote:
…Peace in the Middle East depends on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict being resolved.

As long as the West Bank is occupied by Israel, terrorism will continue to be exported to other countries thanks to Al Jazeera and Co.

…[/quote]

Untrue. Israel could disappear and Islamic terrorism would continue.

Are people being murdered in Baghdad to drive out Israel?

Would Al Qaeda stop trying to overthrow the Saudi monarchy if Israel was gone?

Would the Bombay bombings have occured if Israel never existed?

Too many people worldwide don’t understand that we are in WW3.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Too many people worldwide don’t understand that we are in WW3.
[/quote]

Excellent point.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Of course, who knows how long this could take.[/quote]

And would you be willing to live through Muslims doing to the rest of the World what Europeans did to the rest of the World back in the day?

I do agree that the biggest catalysts for change in Europe were a combination of money, comfort and social democracy – but remember that was achieved at the expense of other nations and peoples – Europe became prosperous after pillaging North and South America, Africa, India and Oceania. Who will be sacrificed this time for Muslims to eventually become prosperous and achieve Enlightenment?

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
rainjack wrote:

Dude - the conflict has been going on since at least 1967 and the 6 day war. SOme of the greates diplomats the world has known have tried, and failed, to broker peace in that region. And you think we need to try and talk some more?

War is the last and only resort in this region.

The war between the Irish and English went on for a millenia, and the term, “The Troubles” only refers to the 1970s. THe same was said about them.
[/quote]

The term “the Troubles” goes back at least to the early 1900’s as far as I know.

It is quite a different situation.

The Irish Catholics just want England the fuck out of Ireland. They are not bent on world domination and destroying the Great Satan to bring about the return of the 12th Imam or whatever the fuck he is called.

[quote]

It’s possible. It’s just how many children have to die for the hierarchy to realize that it isn’t worth it.[/quote]

Peace will not happen unless we all convert to fundementalist Islam or the movement burns out. In the meantime we must fight them.

I know you despise Christian fundementalism. Try to picture the same thing but with bombs and murder on a massive scale to get their way.

Would you fight against that?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
rainjack wrote:

Dude - the conflict has been going on since at least 1967 and the 6 day war. SOme of the greates diplomats the world has known have tried, and failed, to broker peace in that region. And you think we need to try and talk some more?

War is the last and only resort in this region.

The war between the Irish and English went on for a millenia, and the term, “The Troubles” only refers to the 1970s. THe same was said about them.

The term “the Troubles” goes back at least to the early 1900’s as far as I know.
[/quote]

No, it was a period from 1969 until 1998.

The 1916 rebellion etc. was all part of the long war for the freedom of the island, and the Troubles refer to the violence between the IRA and the English and other paramilitary organizatons in Northern Ireland.

Muslims want Israel the fuck out of Palestine. Radical Islam is a dividing line, yes, but the majority, I bet, don’t really care about world domination. My guess is that it is, as always, a select few, where without a shepherd to lead them, they would be lost sheep looked on as radicals (like communists in this society). Hence the importance of killing the Bin Ladens and Zaraqi’s (sp, I know).

[quote]
It’s possible. It’s just how many children have to die for the hierarchy to realize that it isn’t worth it.

Peace will not happen unless we all convert to fundementalist Islam or the movement burns out. In the meantime we must fight them.

I know you despise Christian fundementalism. Try to picture the same thing but with bombs and murder on a massive scale to get their way.

Would you fight against that?[/quote]

I would fight against religious fundamentalism in all its forms. However, I’m not ready to start a massive war in the Middle East over it yet, just as no one wanted to start a massive war with the Soviet Union. It can be contained and fought in different places, like communism was (although Islam is far more dangerous, as all religions are).

Knowledge is the greatest weapon in this, and any, war. Thomas Paine, with some written words, inspired both the American and French Revolutions, and was nearly hung in England because they were so afraid that he would do the same thing there. One person said that without the “pen of Paine, the sword of Washington would be useless”. There are more ways than one to win this war…dropping books may be a better idea than dropping bombs.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
rainjack wrote:

Dude - the conflict has been going on since at least 1967 and the 6 day war. SOme of the greates diplomats the world has known have tried, and failed, to broker peace in that region. And you think we need to try and talk some more?

War is the last and only resort in this region.

The war between the Irish and English went on for a millenia, and the term, “The Troubles” only refers to the 1970s. THe same was said about them.

The term “the Troubles” goes back at least to the early 1900’s as far as I know.
[/quote]

No, it was a period from 1969 until 1998.

The 1916 rebellion etc. was all part of the long war for the freedom of the island, and the Troubles refer to the violence between the IRA and the English and other paramilitary organizatons in Northern Ireland.

Muslims want Israel the fuck out of Palestine. Radical Islam is a dividing line, yes, but the majority, I bet, don’t really care about world domination. My guess is that it is, as always, a select few, where without a shepherd to lead them, they would be lost sheep looked on as radicals (like communists in this society). Hence the importance of killing the Bin Ladens and Zaraqi’s (sp, I know).

[quote]
It’s possible. It’s just how many children have to die for the hierarchy to realize that it isn’t worth it.

Peace will not happen unless we all convert to fundementalist Islam or the movement burns out. In the meantime we must fight them.

I know you despise Christian fundementalism. Try to picture the same thing but with bombs and murder on a massive scale to get their way.

Would you fight against that?[/quote]

I would fight against religious fundamentalism in all its forms. However, I’m not ready to start a massive war in the Middle East over it yet, just as no one wanted to start a massive war with the Soviet Union. It can be contained and fought in different places, like communism was (although Islam is far more dangerous, as all religions are).

Knowledge is the greatest weapon in this, and any, war. Thomas Paine, with some written words, inspired both the American and French Revolutions, and was nearly hung in England because they were so afraid that he would do the same thing there. One person said that without the “pen of Paine, the sword of Washington would be useless”. There are more ways than one to win this war…dropping books may be a better idea than dropping bombs.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Too many people worldwide don’t understand that we are in WW3.

Excellent point. [/quote]

Bush and Israel made sure of that.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Knowledge is the greatest weapon in this, and any, war. Thomas Paine, with some written words, inspired both the American and French Revolutions, and was nearly hung in England because they were so afraid that he would do the same thing there. One person said that without the “pen of Paine, the sword of Washington would be useless”. There are more ways than one to win this war…dropping books may be a better idea than dropping bombs.[/quote]

Dude, we can’t even get AMERICANS to read books these days – especially not Thomas Paine, a staunch liberal and deist, who the right (especially the christian right) despises to the core, since he was amongst the earliest proponents of social security, universal free public education, and a guaranteed minimum income PLUS he was as close to an atheist as you could get those days (a deist) – how do you expect us to be able to convince anyone to read anything, much less Thomas Paine?

Again, I am in full agreement on your view as Social Democracy as the savior of Europe, and, in fact, as the REAL Solution. I see Social Democracy as THE solution. Thomas Paine was a genius, and one of the greatest figures in Human History. I am a staunch Social Democrat. I just don’t believe there’s more than a chance in a billion that Muslims will ever adopt Social Democracy, especially not as long as the US doesn’t either (and we both know that the US turning Social Democrat is pretty unlikely in itself).

The whole “do what I say, don’t do what I do” thing just doesn’t work. You, as a Catholic who sees priests doing exactly that, knows it full well.

" In America or Britain, capitalism took over at the same time that the ideas of democracy were developing, and great philosophers like Rousseau and Paine and Locke were writing their treatises.

There has been none of that in the Muslim world; thought is stifled in favor of religion.

However, we can’t forget that once Europe was like this, and it took years to come out of it. Their were certainly radical sects of Christianity (still are, of course) that wanted to kill the Jews, there was the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the burning of scientists at the stake, and the acquisence of the Church with Hitler in the '40s."

Good point. Most of the people who clashed with me seem to hold the belief that Islamic society is archaic. We couldn’t get a baby to stand up and run, no matter how you beat or torment it. These evolutions come naturally. Of course this is not to prevent punitive measures that aren’t war crimes (i suggest strong police forces, and punishing the guilty, not general population, to draw a distinction)

Genocide is completely out. If you say that it is even an option, all of your views are invalidated. I never said anything like that yet got flamed. Quit acting like you’re under the barrel of a gun people. No logic of any worth will come from that mentality

[quote]doogie wrote:
I don’t think we can ever change the hearts and minds of the followers of “radical Islam.” There will always be a large percentage of Muslims who want to exterminate the Jewish people, no matter how educated they become.
[/quote]

Zionism and Anti-Semitism
We implore and beseech our Jewish brethren to realize that the Zionists are not the saviors of the Jewish People and guarantors of their safety, but rather the instigators and original cause of Jewish suffering in the Holy Land and worldwide. The idea that Zionism and the State of “Israel” is the protector of Jews is probably the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the Jewish People. Indeed, where else since 1945 have Jews been in such physical danger as in the Zionist state?!

As far as Zionism is concerned, the founder of Zionism and apostate, Theodor Herzl, sought to intensify hatred of the Jew in order to enhance the cause of political Zionism. Here are some of his “pearls”:

“It is essential that the sufferings of Jews… become worse… this will assist in realization of our plans… I have an excellent idea… I shall induce anti-semites to liquidate Jewish wealth… The anti-semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-semites shall be our best friends”. (From his Diary, Part I, pp. 16)

Additional words from the vivid imagination of this dreamer, from p. 68 of Part I of his Diary.

So anti-Semitism, which is a deeply imbedded force in the subconscious mind of the masses, will not harm the Jews. I actually find it to be advantageous to building the Jewish character, education by the masses that will lead to assimilation. This education can only happen through suffering, and the Jews will adapt.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/zanda.cfm

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
If you say that it is even an option, all of your views are invalidated.[/quote]

That is very tolerant and open minded of you…

(yes, that was a sarcastic remark)

Outlining it as an option and defending it as a viable option are two completely different things. It IS an option for both sides. In fact, it is THE option both Jewish and Muslim fundamentalists defend.

Any discussion that is blind to that fact is the one that is invalid. We need to put all the cards on the table before we can deal them.

By the way, have you ever heard of bluffing? Pretty important concept that is most useful to thoroughly understand in these situations.

Belgian Jewish Leader: Israel Committing War Crimes
In an interview with Zaman in Brussels, Ravedovitch said that while former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon committed indirect war crimes, current Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is unquestionably a war criminal.

Dr. Ravedovitch said it is a shame that Jews who were once exposed to the holocaust are doing the same evil things against another nation today.
According to Ravedovitch, anti-Semitism is from time to time misused by Israeli statesman, and the recently intensified Israeli offensive into Lebanon has increased hatred for Israel.

“What Israel is doing in Lebanon is terror.”

Ravedovitch said the EU’s attitude indicates Europe still feels guilty about the holocaust, but that Israel is exploiting anti-Semitism.

He pointed out that anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism are different concepts.

“Anti-Zionism is a political stance. For instance, when a person criticizes Britain, he shouldn’t be called racist or anti- British. Similarly, when people criticize Israel, they do not become anti-Semites.”
http://www.zaman.com/?bl=international&alt=&trh=20060727&hn=35131