Restless I think ketoacidosis can very likely occur in those who follow a keto diet and regularly use MD6 (therms). higher levels of ketoacidosis and norephedrine due to lack of carbs and increased use of therms increasing epinephrine and cortisol workout intensities. From stress mineral loss and lack of nutrients. Thus those studies could pertain to BB’s, especially those who have been following a carb restricted diet and using therms. and To MOONPIEPHIL big FUCKING deal that you have a biology degree and you learned to read some abstacts. A biology degree , physiology, or kinesiology degree does not mean shit in this field, and in the world. Look at how dumb doctor’s are but yet most of there undergad degree were in one of those subjects. The greatest strength coaches and scientists in this field where not strictly educated in biology, kinesiology, physiology, but rather just used them as a tool not basing these degrees as the all in all. Most degree flauntes I find I very limited in knowledge. Only possessing very small horizons when it comes to the mysterious human body.
GUYS
the bottom line is simply calorie balance, what the hell is so hard to see about it…track your calories and go 500 to 1000 below mntc (depending on your current bf%) and see if you don’t cut up on ANY diet…(sure you may preserve more LBM on some but bottom line is YOU WILL Cut up)…why can’t people see that ENERGY BALANCE is the MAIN player in fat loss…not DIET TYPE, CORTISOL LEVELS, INSULIN LEVELS or the like
I’m out
Vain68
Actually if you go back and read what I wrote, you’ll see that I was mocking those who think they have a great deal of knowledge simply because that have an undergrad degree in biology. Perhaps you should take a reading comprehension course or three? Just to let you know, I have a Ph.D. in physiology and biophysics.
First I would like to say that I did not appreciate Moonpiephil’s insulting comments about my intelligence and background as I did nothing to insult his. I happen to have a B.S. in nutritional science and am now in pharmacy school. From the sounds of it Moonpiephil has a PhD/MD specializing in Nutritional Endocrinology. Moonpiephil, I think you are very intelligent and have helped me understand this issue much better. I do not feel that cortisol is the only contributing factor for fat loss, but that it is one player in a complex scheme. Cortisol is most often implicated in central obesity, along with insulin resistance which cortisol causes. Therefore I am just trying to find out a logical explanation for how cortisol may be involved in this. I am just putting out some ideas for people to kick around, not drawing definate conclusions. I know that insulin inhibits fat oxidation; however as I already have shown it does not inhibit this during the post-workout period. So insulin and carbohydrate are not the only factors determining this therefore your statement that “ingesting carbs does reduce fatty acid oxidation” would not be true in this instance. Obviously, as you have stated fat loss is more complex than only ascribing it insulin, carbohydrate, and cortisol. I believe that this is due to increased AMPK levels in the post-workout period but that is another issue. We both agree that cortisol can increase visceral fat. This issue of fat loss in the subcutaneous region does seem to initially be contradictory in the research; Compare, J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1998 Feb;83(2):626-31, with Am J Physiol 1996 Dec;271(6 Pt 1):E996-1002. However, first note that they were done by the same researchers. Second, in the study I mentioned in 98 the subjects were placed in a state of hypercortisolemia where in the earlier study they compared subjects with supressed cortisol to subjects with normal levels(control subjects or subjects that recieved hydrocortisone to restore normal levles). In any case the two studies were comparing different issues(hypercortisolemia vs. hypocortisolemia) and that makes it impossible to compare them. My argument is that hypercortisolemia may impair lipolysis in the subcutaneous region as well as the visceral region and it is based on the 98 study where the 96 study did not evaluate this. I definately agree that lower cortisol than normal would lead to decreased lipolysis as the 96 study shows. Apparently from these studies both high and low levels of cortisol decreases HSL action in subcutaneous fat. This is what the research shows so far but it is not an absolute conclusion. The issue that seems to be here is does ketogenic diets lead to increased cortisol levels? Apparently in acute ketosis the answer is yes (Guyton, Textbook of Medical Physiology, Tenth Ed.). In longer term ketosis I have not seen any data one way or the other so the jury is still out till someone comes across something. Restless, the authors in the abstract you are referring to concluded that “epinephrine and cortisol overproduction are important components of acute ketoacidosis.” I never said that “this(increased cortisol) also happens in normal people who don’t suffer from this condition (ketosis)” as you paraphrased. I said that normal people in this condition (ketosis) would experience increased cortisol(again refer to Guyton). The other issue here is are ketogenic or carbohydrate containing diets diets better for fat loss. I guess the study I posted was not good enough for Moonpiephil that shows that there is little difference between the diets. If there is a study contradicting this I would like to see one as I do not have all the time in the world to research this. Let me post the abstract. J Okla State Med Assoc 2002 May;95(5):329-31. Effect of weight loss plans on body composition and diet duration.
Landers P, Wolfe MM, Glore S, Guild R, Phillips L.
Department of Nutritional Sciences, University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center, PO Box 26901-CHB 469, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma City, OK 73190, USA.
Are low carbohydrate high protein (LCHP) diets more effective in promoting loss of weight and body fat and can individuals stay on an Atkins-like diet more easily than on a conventional weight loss diet? A pre-test/post-test randomized group design composed of three cohorts was utilized to test 1) a LCHP ketogenic diet; 2) the Zone diet; and 3) a conventional hypocaloric diabetic exchange diet that supplied < 10%, 40%, and 50% of calories from carbohydrate, respectively. Body composition was measured before and after the intervention treatment period with dual energy X-ray absorptiometry. Mean weight loss was 5.1 kg for those who completed the 12-week program. There were no significant differences in total weight, fat, or lean body mass loss when compared by diet group. Attrition was substantial for all plans at 43%, 60%, and 36% for LCHP, Zone and conventional diets, respectively.
PMID: 12043107 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Obviousily this issue is far from reaching conclusion and needs more studies. I do agree that different diets will work better for different people so one should find out what is best for him or her. I believe that for most people a diet similar to the one John Berardi lays out in his “Lean Eating” article would be the best for fat loss, muscle retention, improved energy and overall health. Ketogenic diets are great for many people; however I feel that they lack fiber and important phytochemicals that will help prevent disease. They also lead to diminished testosterone and thyroid hormone, which would lead to decreased muscle protein synthesis and a sluggish metabolism. I along with many others (not all) experience diminished energy levels on a ketogenic diet. In the end however, do what works best for you. The cortisol issue is not conclusive and probably will not be until more data surfaces.
Dave, from what i’ve read ketoacidosis happens when a complete insulin depletion ocurs, so it’s a condition seen mainly in Diabetes type 1 and 2 patients and alcoholics, but not normally seen on healthy individuals. I mantain my statement, and still believe this study is of no significance to non diabetics.
Well, Ken, I could debate with you some more but it’s a waste of time as you seem set on your ideas regardless of the quality research I provide and aside from that, time equals money.
I do want to apologize for those comments I made about you though as that wasn’t professional of me at all. You do seem like an intelligent individual, but one that just needs a little more experience.
Good luck to you!
Moonpiephil, thanks for the apology. I really don’t have any more time to debate this either as there is not enough evidence one way or the other to draw conclusions. This is the last time I will get into a debate such as this as it just drains me of energy and time. Your credentials are rather impressive and I acknowledge that you definately have much more experience than me. I am just trying to learn all I can with the help of others ideas and opinions. I am far from being an expert on anything but I feel that I do have some knowledge to contribute to the scientific world. Good luck in your endeavors.
Mike,
Sorry to take so long to reply on the post. My keto rip plans are laid out in detail in old posts (do a search on the forum) with step by step instructions in meal combinations and timing. I typically do a strict keto at less than 30g of carbs per day around 2,000kcal (mntc at 3,000) until i drop considerable fat. When I feel i am down in the single digit range i will up carbs slightly but not overall calorie balance (thus, still severe dieting)…this transitions me to being the insulin binding hormones without rebound fat gain or impaired lipolysis. I escalte carbs to no more than 200/day to rip the hell up while slowly upping kcal to around 2500 or so. With this plan, I have ripped up pretty good…i have done a CKD, but they are flawed for one major reason…the liver interecepts 55% of all carb loads, and therefore muscle glycogen, while preferentially replaced if empty still does not account for the 55% that the liver takes up with cho loads and once that bad boy is full, well, we all know what happens.
Im out and hope this helps,
Peace out
Vain68
Bump Bump
This is the type of discussion I miss on this board.
I don’t mean to dumb down the thread but I have experienced exactly what you guys have described. Now days when I am dieting down I tend to loose weight fairly evenly but when I notice any weight gain it is primarily all abdominal fat. What is the conclusion on how to combat this? I diet T-dawg 2.0 for the most part but when traveling about every two weeks it is more a keto diet due to ease when on the road.
(from your 8/11 post)
Vain68,
I know what you are saying and I agree. Funny though how we seem to oversimplify, over think and return to original.
Fat loss = Calories in < Calories out
a calorie is a calorie
A calorie is not a calorie
No matter where you calories come from to loose fat calories must be below maintainece.
You start out with a premise. You analyze all the data.
Effects of cortisol, leptin, Testosterone, Cholesterol, insulin, etc.
Low CHO diets can cause Low T high Cortisol
Moderate CHO=more insulin, less Cortisol, less leptin
Low fat = Low T, low GH
ETC., ETC., ETC.
Conclusion, pick a CHO/Pro/Fat balance that works for you. Maintenance Calories -500 = fat loss
Vain68, I noticed that DiPasquale, Serrano and Poliquin have all emphasized higher protein and less fats on their versions of the keto diets.
What do you think of the idea that some people are “poorer fat oxidizers,” so that replacing fat with protein leads to more fat loss, despite higher insulin levels?
Also, on MCTs, Don Alessi said on the forum recently that in the presence of carbs, they will deposit, but I wasn’t aware that carbs via insulin inhibits the use of ketones (fatty acids, yes). In nature, ketones and carbs aren’t paired together. What do you think?