Coronavirus - What Happened?

[zecarlo]

@Alrightmiami19c

Funny how so many non Christians

What’s funnier is how anyone who disagrees with a supposed Christian is somehow a
non-Christian. Do all Christians have to think alike? Or just think like you?

@NickViar

Well, they definitely grasp the most important thing: believing they are smarter than God.

We all know true Christians believe they are speaking on behalf of God.

@NickViar

They believe themselves smarter than the God of the Bible

Almost every character in the Bible thought this.

@dt79

Why isn’t the bible being followed to the letter if it’s supposed to represent the Word of God?

We know why: we call those people crazy.

@dt79

If they think the words of the bible, which was written by men , don’t make sense, that doesn’t equate to them thinking they’re smarter than God.

Only that they are smarter than the people who wrote them or at least smarter than the intended audience. Although smarter might not be the best word. Maybe more educated or knowledgeable.

@dt79

I don’t think I’m smarter than Allah even though I reject his existence

If you believe he doesn’t exist then how you can be smarter or less intelligent than him? I don’t think non-Christians, or atheists, think they are smarter than God because that would be like thinking you are smarter than Mickey Mouse.

[NickViar]

@dt79

You could apply this logic to most modern day Christian denominations all the way up to the Vatican, then.

How so?

@dt79

Why is Christianity constantly evolving?

It’s not.

@dt79

Why are there so many conflicting denominations?

In what way/s are they conflicting?

@dt79

Why isn’t the bible being followed to the letter if it’s supposed to represent the Word of God?

What do you mean? Why is there sin?

@dt79

Is every new generation of theologians smarter than God?

No generation of theologians is.

@dt79

You wrote that non-Christians here who obviously have been educated in the religion think they’re smarter than God.

Ehh…one of these guys said that faith in God is not necessary in Christianity. Maybe “obviously” and “educated” mean different things to you and me.

@dt79

Do you think you’re smarter than Allah?

No.

[mnben87]

@NickViar

Ehh…one of these guys said that faith in God is not necessary in Christianity.

It isn’t necessary, belief is necessary.

One could be convinced that there is evidence supporting the Bible’s key claims. They wouldn’t be using faith to believe, and I believe that they would be considered by many / most to be Christians. I would put most Christians in this bucket. I think very few are at the point were they are willing to admit that their only justification for belief is faith (because such an admission logically leads to their belief being unjustified).

[zecarlo]

@NickViar

It’s not.

You can dispute evolving but it has changed. You have to keep in mind that Christianity doesn’t have a rule book like Judaism.

@NickViar

In what way/s are they conflicting?

People have been beheaded and burned at the stake because of it. Wars have been fought over it.

[Aragorn]

@mnben87

They wouldn’t be using faith to believe, and I believe that they would be considered by many / most to be Christians. I would put most Christians in this bucket. I think very few are at the point were they are willing to admit that their only justification for belief is faith

I really don’t want to get into this conversation, but this is a straw man to me. Having faith and completely blind faith are not the same things. Simply because you have reasons for something that you believe doesn’t mean you don’t have faith in the thing that you believe. That would be absurd.

To take it even further, most of the central people in the Bible had direct experiences (miracles, Paul’s road to Damascus, healing) that were reasons for their belief. Using your rubric that would mean they did not have faith. Clearly that is not what a plain reading of the texts would suggest.

[Alrightmiami19c]

@zecarlo

What’s funnier is how anyone who disagrees with a supposed Christian is somehow a
non-Christian.

Are you Christian? If so what denomination out of curiosity?

[mnben87]

There are multiple definitions of faith. I am using the belief without evidence definition (which does roughly show up googling the term). Now you are right, one could have belief through faith and other evidence or justifications, only through faith, or only though evidence or justifications. My point is that faith isn’t the only path to belief, and it isn’t the faith part that is required, it is belief.

[zecarlo]

@Alrightmiami19c

Are you Christian?

I don’t talk about what I believe or don’t believe.

[oglebee]

@Aragorn

Lol. Says the guy who’s never worked in science to the guy with published papers and years in research. You don’t even have to believe me since this is the internet after all, but that is just funny.

What you did there.

Is what Chris did here:

@chris_ottawa

Herve Seligmann is a professor at the university of Aix-Marseille and has authored numerous scientific papers and studies. If you want to see the data then look for it, it’s linked in the article.

To which you said:

@Aragorn

Yes. His interests are largely tRNA, mitochondrial genome mechanics, and origin of life. He certainly has done work on viruses, and is high up in the infectious disease dept at the university. He’s a legit scientist.

That doesn’t mean he is correct. This information represents an extraordinary claim, and it has yet to appear in any preprint or peer review that I can find.

Bit of an appeal to authority.

I know 23 days late. I don’t come on here much these days.

Also for the record not siding with anyone. I would like Chris to follow through and actually see if he can find the actual data that Seligman and friend are citing. Asses the veracity of those statements. Post it here so we can all go through the actual data together. That would be fun.

The safety and efficacy data for the vaccines are available online for anyone to look up.
And if those guys are falsifying data. Well then the institutions I have placed so much faith into are corrupt and we are proper fucked.

Obviously the clinical trials couldn’t perform any sort of long term surveillance on their subjects. I am not sure if that really matters. So who knows if all recipients of vaccines will develop some sort of condition down the line. Many years later. Perhaps autism haha. Or acute disseminated encephalomyelitis. Jk of course. But not jk on the lack of long term surveillance

[Californiagrown]

@oglebee

we can all go through the actual data together. That would be fun.

You sound like you party real fuckin’ hard.

[Alrightmiami19c]

@zecarlo

I don’t talk about what I believe or don’t believe.

Thats very lukewarm of you.

[zecarlo]

I believe religion is a personal matter.

[Sloth]

You just talked about what you believe!

[zecarlo]

No, I mentioned it.

[Aragorn]

@mnben87

My point is that faith isn’t the only path to belief

That’s fine

@mnben87

I am using the belief without evidence definition

I think this is a poor definition, but more to the point the situation you wrote about doesn’t track with the examples of faith using the actual events and people in the Bible (let’s just please assume everything happened for arguments sake, to avoid yet another theism/atheism/agnosticism debate).

Paul - road to Damascus direct experience with God. Voices, blindness, everything.

Any of the 12 apostles - living, talking with God on the day to day for years, witnessing numerous miracles.

Moses - burning bush, miracles, curses, parting of the red sea, talking with God on the mountain

I mean, the vast majority of biblical heroes had direct experiences of some sort. Shoot, even the nameless crowds in the ministry of Jesus witnessed miracles. Even people afterwards during the ministry of the apostles saw the apostles do miracles.

Direct experience I would say is quite definitely “evidence” and “reason”, even though it would not fit the deductive philosophical mold. So I don’t think your definition fits. That’s why I called it a straw man, not because there are multiple definitions. You said

@mnben87

One could be convinced that there is evidence supporting the Bible’s key claims. They wouldn’t be using faith to believe

And that, at least according to the relevant Biblical definition, isn’t correct. This is because the examples I wrote about were considered faith by Jesus, others in the Bible, writers of the Bible, and people since that time.

That’s what I’m getting at. You’re applying a definition of faith that isn’t what the source text applies to the religion. They all accepted belief due to evidence as faith.

[zecarlo]

@Aragorn

I mean, the vast majority of biblical heroes had direct experiences of some sort.

Then it isn’t faith. With that said…

@Aragorn

Moses - burning bush, miracles, curses, parting of the red sea, talking with God on the mountain

Could also be explained as being things that were interpreted as being from God or God.

[Aragorn]

@oglebee

What you did there.

Is what Chris did here:

Not quite. For me it was more getting fed up than anything. After the 6th or 7th time or whatever it is, I just stop using facts and figures because it’s too much effort for what comes back at me. Early on I went through mechanisms, linked some studies, talked about said studies, etc. I basically got a “yeah but…” response most of the time. What you quoted from me above is me essentially saying I don’t care and I’m not going to humor anyone any more.

@oglebee

Bit of an appeal to authority.

I think you might be misreading. Chris made the appeal to authority but didn’t link anything I could verify with and I basically said “I can’t find the data this guy talks about anywhere, so I don’t believe it’s published. And I trust my experience over some random post with no data”.

@oglebee

Also for the record not siding with anyone. I would like Chris to follow through and actually see if he can find the actual data that Seligman and friend are citing. Asses the veracity of those statements. Post it here so we can all go through the actual data together. That would be fun.

The safety and efficacy data for the vaccines are available online for anyone to look up

I know you’re not siding. I’d love to see the data Seligman is referencing. But as you say, the safety and efficacy data for vaccines are available online and don’t paint ANYTHING like the picture Seligman does. So when I have data that says one thing and a guy saying another (very shocking and extraordinary claim btw) without any data, I’m going to go with the stuff I can find that’s published.

If he finds the actual data I’m totally fine looking at it. But I’m not going to believe nonsense just because a guy with a CV said it. For reference, look at some of the batshit things Linus Pauling said in his later years. He was legit one of the top maybe 10 physicists in history of the 20th century. That doesn’t mean the other stuff he said should be believed.

[Aragorn]

@zecarlo

Could also be explained as being things that were interpreted as being from God or God

Sure thing. But for the sake of the discussion I basically just said let’s consider all of those events and miracles at face value. Otherwise we will end up in the millionth never-ending theistic debate and I just don’t want anything to do with that.

@zecarlo

Then it isn’t faith

This though, is kind of the problem. It’s very clear that the authors of the Bible and the people they are describing view it as acts of faith when following through on something after said experience/miracle.

My point is simply that the situation is analogous to when one is reading historical texts: you shouldn’t take 21st century lens to a 15th, 6th, or 1st century culture and view. You should use the contemporary culture view when considering history. You’ve said so yourself in other threads. In this case the founding Biblical people, apostles, and theologians all consider “faith” to be inclusive of evidence and experience (note I didnt say “only”, I said inclusive of). That can be said to form the foundation of Christian thought, so applying a different definition of faith isn’t warranted IMO.

Edit - typos

[zecarlo]

@Aragorn

It’s very clear that the authors of the Bible and the people they are describing view it as acts of faith when following through on something after said experience/miracle.

The faith part would be believing that the experience is related to God. If Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, faith is believing that was a divine act and not some magic trick, con, or the work of the devil. The parting of the Red Sea, assuming it happened, was it God or some natural phenomenon?

Faith always has to leave room for doubt.

@Aragorn

In this case the founding Biblical people, apostles, and theologians all consider “faith” to be inclusive of evidence and experience

Hebrews 11: 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

[Alrightmiami19c]

@zecarlo

I believe religion is a personal matter.

Fair enough. But, that leads me to believe you’re not Christian.