Conjugate Method: 4 Times a Week vs. 3

since I began lifting 3 or so years ago , I for the most part used a 3 day a week upper/lower p’lifting split . when I started using the westside approach (some would say I wouldnt have been ready at the time) , I still only hit it 3 times a week…ME bench/ME squat & dead/RE bench ; RE bench was used instead of DE due to the need for upper body mass . 3/week was chosen because I figured it would allow for better recovery for a 40 something novice. I did attempt 4 a week last winter…didnt go well so I went back to 3/week . all this while , the days following squat day were brutal…you all probably know what Im talkin’ about .

well , a few months back I decided to give it another shot . figured it’s winter , and Im poor as dirt , so recovery time should be plentiful . set up is ME bench/DE squat/DE bench/ME squat & deads . bands are used for both DE days , and DE bench is ran for 6 or so weeks , then changed out for board work / heavy tricep work . this is pretty close to the basic conjugate set up .

well , all I can say is HO-LY CRAP . recovery is frikkin unbelievable . and PR’s are not only being set , but absolutely destroyed in some cases (40 lb PR for a 5RM on lo-box squats over last week ). a 40 pound PR has been un-heard of until today . DOMS from squatting is less than half of what it used to be …waaayy less than half .

I should add that I think I’ve gotten a bit smarter about programming (partially thanks to Meat ) ; but Im convinced that going to 4 a week is where the biggest recovery gains came from…who woulda thought that squatting more often would lead to better recovery ?

anybody else have any experiences to share on this matter ?

{I figured I’d post this here instead of on the PL forum . everybody there lifts at least 7 days a week :wink: }

are you actually squatting every ME squat session? Not that is bad, a lot of guys have done that, and lately I mostly do but currently think I did better rotating squat as an ME movement in only once every few weeks.

[quote]PeteS wrote:
are you actually squatting every ME squat session? Not that is bad, a lot of guys have done that, and lately I mostly do but currently think I did better rotating squat as an ME movement in only once every few weeks. [/quote]

either a squat/variation or deadlift/variation (no good mornings as ME work yet). squats are cycled more often than deads due to the squat being more of a head-fuck for me .I keep the number of variations pretty low compared to more advanced lifters . each ME cycle runs from 3 to 5 weeks . thats actually one of the things I got from Meat…that performing a lift more than the recommended 3 weeks can be beneficial for a lower level lifter like myself . it seems to take a couple weeks to really get up to performing well on a particular lift ; I cant get into PR range at the drop of a hat…wish I could .

do you lift 4 times a week ?

I have 4 primary sessions, basic westside split: ME upper on Saturdays, ME lower on Mondays, DE upper Wedendays, DE lower Thursdays. However, as time allows, I will lift up to 6 times a week, doing upper back/trap/lat/bicep + any rehab/prehab stuff I feel I need. I have severe training OCD, however, from tracking my logs this split actually gives me the best results. I have been a little self conscious about it before (oh my god, I am going to over train and die) but in reality that is how a lot of the Westside guys do it. I have been in the gym pretty much nonstop for 27 years, so my recovery ability might be different.

To kind of take account of age/overtraining/etc I will admit my ME days are more based now on ‘perceived max’ vs. ‘actual max’. IE if I feel like shit I will just work up to something that feels like a max for that day. Over the long haul this seems to help alot. Long term I am still beating the log book, or setting PRs. But say for instance, I just started pushing my squat again after having to take kind of a lay off due to injuries. Last Monday I did 525 x 3. I still had more in the tank, but if I pushed it, I might have regrets. Tomorrow I will go for something akin to 515 x 5 (check my log to keep me honest). Once I feel the issues with my hip and knee are not worries I will look for true PRs.

[quote]PeteS wrote:
I have 4 primary sessions, basic westside split: ME upper on Saturdays, ME lower on Mondays, DE upper Wedendays, DE lower Thursdays. However, as time allows, I will lift up to 6 times a week, doing upper back/trap/lat/bicep + any rehab/prehab stuff I feel I need.

I have severe training OCD, however, from tracking my logs this split actually gives me the best results. I have been a little self conscious about it before (oh my god, I am going to over train and die) but in reality that is how a lot of the Westside guys do it. I have been in the gym pretty much nonstop for 27 years, so my recovery ability might be different.

To kind of take account of age/overtraining/etc I will admit my ME days are more based now on ‘perceived max’ vs. ‘actual max’. IE if I feel like shit I will just work up to something that feels like a max for that day. Over the long haul this seems to help alot. Long term I am still beating the log book, or setting PRs.

But say for instance, I just started pushing my squat again after having to take kind of a lay off due to injuries. Last Monday I did 525 x 3. I still had more in the tank, but if I pushed it, I might have regrets. Tomorrow I will go for something akin to 515 x 5 (check my log to keep me honest). Once I feel the issues with my hip and knee are not worries I will look for true PRs. [/quote]

With age comes wisdom…usually!!! Nice work

[quote]PeteS wrote:
I have 4 primary sessions, basic westside split: ME upper on Saturdays, ME lower on Mondays, DE upper Wedendays, DE lower Thursdays. However, as time allows, I will lift up to 6 times a week, doing upper back/trap/lat/bicep + any rehab/prehab stuff I feel I need.

I have severe training OCD, however, from tracking my logs this split actually gives me the best results. I have been a little self conscious about it before (oh my god, I am going to over train and die) but in reality that is how a lot of the Westside guys do it. I have been in the gym pretty much nonstop for 27 years, so my recovery ability might be different.

To kind of take account of age/overtraining/etc I will admit my ME days are more based now on ‘perceived max’ vs. ‘actual max’. IE if I feel like shit I will just work up to something that feels like a max for that day. Over the long haul this seems to help alot. Long term I am still beating the log book, or setting PRs.

But say for instance, I just started pushing my squat again after having to take kind of a lay off due to injuries. Last Monday I did 525 x 3. I still had more in the tank, but if I pushed it, I might have regrets. Tomorrow I will go for something akin to 515 x 5 (check my log to keep me honest). Once I feel the issues with my hip and knee are not worries I will look for true PRs. [/quote]

got it . I recall someone talking about the extra days used for rehab/prehab as you stated . I did a couple of these my first weeks on 4/week . mostly focused on glutes/hams via light pull thrus , sldl’s , banded good mornings , etc ; just ordered another set of bands and a 6" foam roller .

gonna get back at the extra days if/when time allows . foam rolling I can do at home . only thing I do for upper body pre-hab is the occasional racquetball outing…great for keeping things loose . throwing chucks around does the same…but with more bruises .

Pete

how many different variations do you use for ME work ?

Right now because of training partners schedule I am kind of stuck using just squats and DLs as my ME movements, but I will try to broaden that in a few weeks. In the past I felt best with 4 movements in rotation:
Week1: MAX squat
week2:GM for 5rm
week3: front squat for 6 rm
week4: Max DL

repeat.

Or sometthing like that.

[quote]marlboroman wrote:
I should add that I think I’ve gotten a bit smarter about programming (partially thanks to Meat ) ; but Im convinced that going to 4 a week is where the biggest recovery gains came from…who woulda thought that squatting more often would lead to better recovery ?

anybody else have any experiences to share on this matter ?

{I figured I’d post this here instead of on the PL forum . everybody there lifts at least 7 days a week :wink: }[/quote]

I’m relatively new to the sport of powerlifting (I started about 5 months ago as a suggestion from one of my friends). I’ve only competed once before and I have a meet coming up in 2 weeks. I see myself as a beginner-intermediate with my stats being 22yrs, 165lbs, 355/240/475-sq/be/dl.

I completely agree with you about the more frequent lifting sessions. Before I started my current 3-4 day/wk powerlifting specialization cycle, I used to workout at least 6 times a week sometimes even doing 2 a days. Every workout was kept very short (as opposed to the painfully long powerlifting workouts), and I felt fantastic as well as superbly athletic.

My hypothesis is that intelligent programming in a 4 day split allows for better recovery because 33% of each workout in a 3 day split gets transfered to the extra day. This spreads the recovery load and allows for greater but shorter intensity because you don’t have to worry about saving anything for a longer workout. But those are just my thoughts.

[quote]HeadofState2040 wrote:

[quote]marlboroman wrote:
I should add that I think I’ve gotten a bit smarter about programming (partially thanks to Meat ) ; but Im convinced that going to 4 a week is where the biggest recovery gains came from…who woulda thought that squatting more often would lead to better recovery ?

anybody else have any experiences to share on this matter ?

{I figured I’d post this here instead of on the PL forum . everybody there lifts at least 7 days a week :wink: }[/quote]

I’m relatively new to the sport of powerlifting (I started about 5 months ago as a suggestion from one of my friends). I’ve only competed once before and I have a meet coming up in 2 weeks. I see myself as a beginner-intermediate with my stats being 22yrs, 165lbs, 355/240/475-sq/be/dl.

I completely agree with you about the more frequent lifting sessions. Before I started my current 3-4 day/wk powerlifting specialization cycle, I used to workout at least 6 times a week sometimes even doing 2 a days. Every workout was kept very short (as opposed to the painfully long powerlifting workouts), and I felt fantastic as well as superbly athletic.

My hypothesis is that intelligent programming in a 4 day split allows for better recovery because 33% of each workout in a 3 day split gets transfered to the extra day. This spreads the recovery load and allows for greater but shorter intensity because you don’t have to worry about saving anything for a longer workout. But those are just my thoughts.[/quote]

sounds logical…I think .

I gotta stir that around for a bit…haha

so which do you recover from better…the 4 per week or the 6 per week ?

(not that I would attempt going to 6 a week…just curious)

and good luck at your meet . my next (4th) is in October .

[quote]PeteS wrote:
Right now because of training partners schedule I am kind of stuck using just squats and DLs as my ME movements, but I will try to broaden that in a few weeks. In the past I felt best with 4 movements in rotation:
Week1: MAX squat
week2:GM for 5rm
week3: front squat for 6 rm
week4: Max DL

repeat.

Or sometthing like that. [/quote]

alright . thanks

[quote]marlboroman wrote:

[quote]HeadofState2040 wrote:

[quote]marlboroman wrote:
I should add that I think I’ve gotten a bit smarter about programming (partially thanks to Meat ) ; but Im convinced that going to 4 a week is where the biggest recovery gains came from…who woulda thought that squatting more often would lead to better recovery ?

anybody else have any experiences to share on this matter ?

{I figured I’d post this here instead of on the PL forum . everybody there lifts at least 7 days a week :wink: }[/quote]

I’m relatively new to the sport of powerlifting (I started about 5 months ago as a suggestion from one of my friends). I’ve only competed once before and I have a meet coming up in 2 weeks. I see myself as a beginner-intermediate with my stats being 22yrs, 165lbs, 355/240/475-sq/be/dl.

I completely agree with you about the more frequent lifting sessions. Before I started my current 3-4 day/wk powerlifting specialization cycle, I used to workout at least 6 times a week sometimes even doing 2 a days. Every workout was kept very short (as opposed to the painfully long powerlifting workouts), and I felt fantastic as well as superbly athletic.

My hypothesis is that intelligent programming in a 4 day split allows for better recovery because 33% of each workout in a 3 day split gets transfered to the extra day. This spreads the recovery load and allows for greater but shorter intensity because you don’t have to worry about saving anything for a longer workout. But those are just my thoughts.[/quote]

sounds logical…I think .

I gotta stir that around for a bit…haha

so which do you recover from better…the 4 per week or the 6 per week ?

(not that I would attempt going to 6 a week…just curious)

and good luck at your meet . my next (4th) is in October .[/quote]

If I recall correctly, my best recovery came as part of a split which looked like this.

DE Lower
ME Upper / Conditioning
Rest
Sprinting & Agility Training / Core
REP Upper
ME Lower / Conditioning
Rest

So I guess that makes it 5 weight training sessions, 2 conditioning sessions, and a sprint/agility session every week. I would train that way until I felt CNS fatigue kicking in (usually about 4-5 weeks). Then I would take the next week easy. Rinse and repeat.

Thanks about the meet. My goal is to pull a raw/beltless 500 deadlift as a 148.

thats the same as my goal !

so I got , like what…6 months to drop 40 pounds and add 130 pounds to my pull :wink:

hahahaha

lolz