So I’ve been carb cycling for about 4 weeks now and have had modest success (no loss in strength; 8 lb lighter in body mass; total of 3 cheats meals in 4 weeks).
I could continue this the same way but what has me flustered is the lack of variety in my meals week to week.
I have read in many carb/insulin related articles that certain carbs are high GI and “bad” for diets. These include things like white rice, pasta, and sugar. Is everything based on GI? If so I have found a lot of conflicting numbers.
Most studies find:
Brown rice and white rice are different (50-ish for brown and 80-ish for white), but rice noodles (seemingly made from white) are LOW (30-50).
Pasta (the regular kind) is found to be somewhat LOW(40-50).
Lactose is LOW (30-40).
Fructose is very LOW (10-20).
Needless to say, I’m confused as to why I’m told to stay away from pasta, rice noodles, fruit, and dairy during a cut. Is there something I’m missing here regarding GI and the “quality” of a carb source?
Pasta is a weird animal. Its GI depends on its thickness and how long it was cooked (the longer you cook it, the higher the GI). As far as fructose, different fruits have varying amounts but they also contain glucose, which has a very high GI rating. Individual fruit GIs would then vary based on amount of sucrose (the sugar you get when you combine fructose and glucose), size of fruit, fiber in fruit, how ripe the fruit is, etc. And you’re right about lactose. Foods like milk are generally considered low GI. However, whole milk has a lower GI than skim, as the fat ameliorates the insulin response.
So am I OK to eat rice/mung bean noodles and under-cooked pasta (only post-workout of course)? I have a great Taiwanese recipe for rice noodles and ground beef that I used to eat but cut out recently due to carb cycling and dieting.
A carb is a carb is a carb. As long as you’re hitting your macros, you can and will lean up whether your carbs come from brown rice, white rice, fully cooked pasta (gasp), white bread, low fat ice cream, oats, etc. The glycemic index is largely irrelevant as it doesn’t take into account that protein and fat consumed in conjunction with a carb source significantly changes the value
Your carbs, regardless of source, can be consumed at any point in the day. No offense, but the idea that someone would intentionally undercook their pasta in attempt to change the glycemic index is sad and laughable. This is supposed to be fun man
[quote]pwolves17 wrote:
A carb is a carb is a carb. As long as you’re hitting your macros, you can and will lean up whether your carbs come from brown rice, white rice, fully cooked pasta (gasp), white bread, low fat ice cream, oats, etc. The glycemic index is largely irrelevant as it doesn’t take into account that protein and fat consumed in conjunction with a carb source significantly changes the value [/quote]
Thanks for the post. I’ve seen this point of view from many forum users across the interwebz and I guess it’s one way to go. I guess my question now is this: can you regulate insulin effectively at all? It’s been shown that there is a huge difference in the insulin response depending on carb source for diabetics (but then again, I’m not a diabetic).
If you want to control insulin you need to limit carb intake, no matter what the source is.
The difference is that 20g of carbs from white rice is just a few big spoonfuls, while 20g of carbs from some vegetable mix is a LOT of volume. Likewise, if you’re going for a larger carb meal, just taking in some vegetables or fruits won’t cut it.
[quote]Sutebun wrote:
If you want to control insulin you need to limit carb intake, no matter what the source is.
The difference is that 20g of carbs from white rice is just a few big spoonfuls, while 20g of carbs from some vegetable mix is a LOT of volume. Likewise, if you’re going for a larger carb meal, just taking in some vegetables or fruits won’t cut it.[/quote]
So the quantity of carbs taken in a single meal is the ultimate deciding factor? This would certainly simplify things, but shouldn’t meal timing also matter (again, there are a lot of folks who believe it doesn’t)? Taking in carbs in the morning and then working out in the evening seems unproductive (in terms of the effect of the carbs on your insulin 10 hours after the fact).
Pwolves is right in that undercooking your pasta is overkill. The question interested me in an academic sense since I spent years testing the blood sugar response from different foods. However, regarding carbs and insulin sensitivity in general, let me recommend this article: Eat Big and Gain Nothing But Muscle
[quote]Sutebun wrote:
If you want to control insulin you need to limit carb intake, no matter what the source is.
The difference is that 20g of carbs from white rice is just a few big spoonfuls, while 20g of carbs from some vegetable mix is a LOT of volume. Likewise, if you’re going for a larger carb meal, just taking in some vegetables or fruits won’t cut it.[/quote]
So the quantity of carbs taken in a single meal is the ultimate deciding factor? This would certainly simplify things, but shouldn’t meal timing also matter (again, there are a lot of folks who believe it doesn’t)? Taking in carbs in the morning and then working out in the evening seems unproductive (in terms of the effect of the carbs on your insulin 10 hours after the fact).[/quote]
I only spoke about how to control insulin – not when. And rather than ultimate I’d say largest, because GI can still play a role and some food will also digest more slowly or quickly.
As to timing, yes the opinions are varied. But the type of training you do and your overall diet (how many calories or carbs) can definitely shift the importance of timing a bit, one way or the other.
Why would you want to limit an insulin spike when insulin is what carries aminos etc
What you want to do is increase your sensitivity to insulin.
High fat diets have been shown to increase insulin resistance. More specifically high fat diets with too many calories.
People I think confuse type 1 and type 2 diabetes. The low and high GI system was made for type 1 diabetes to indicate how much insulin would be required to possibly inject after a meal.
How would a diet of more fat and slower burning carbs/no carbs help a type 2 when the issue is not the insulin spiking itself but rather the cells resistance to insulin.
[quote]Liam M wrote:
How would a diet of more fat and slower burning carbs/no carbs help a type 2 when the issue is not the insulin spiking itself but rather the cells resistance to insulin. [/quote]
Well, no one said anything about high fat in the diet. I think most people who are modestly well-informed about nutrition knows to keep fats healthy and in moderation.
Also, you seemed to have gotten sidetracked with my diabetes reference; I used diabetes as a counter-point to the suggestion that all carbs are created equal. This thread is not about diabetes (no one said or made any arguments about type I or II diabetes or how to treat them).
I am looking to lose weight slowly and in a healthy manner; I am not looking to debate carbs vs. fats in regards to diabetes. I was hoping for advice regarding my choices in carb sources along with supporting information that go with that advice.
But your whole OP was about the glycemic index.
I’m telling you the actual glycemic index is bullshit and it’s sole purpose was for type 1 diabetics to assess Insulin shots
If everyone should know about how much fat to eat then what’s with keto etc
Glucose is the number one energy source so you should eat carbs that convert into glucose easily.
Potatoes, white rice etc
Oatmeal, brown rice and anything with a bran kind of coating can have a protein covering, the amylase in our mouths can’t break the protein down and therefore you cannot absorb the glucose as easily and can cause stomach distress.
Look at the best bodybuilders. Even when dieting they eat white rice and potato. Even centopani has videos of his diets
[quote]Liam M wrote:
But your whole OP was about the glycemic index.
I’m telling you the actual glycemic index is bullshit and it’s sole purpose was for type 1 diabetics to assess Insulin shots
If everyone should know about how much fat to eat then what’s with keto etc
Glucose is the number one energy source so you should eat carbs that convert into glucose easily.
Potatoes, white rice etc
Oatmeal, brown rice and anything with a bran kind of coating can have a protein covering, the amylase in our mouths can’t break the protein down and therefore you cannot absorb the glucose as easily and can cause stomach distress.
Look at the best bodybuilders. Even when dieting they eat white rice and potato. Even centopani has videos of his diets
[/quote]
So what you’re saying is that all the article on online about carb source choices (with regards to cutting) are bullshit? I’m down to consider your point if you have some literature I can look at.
Again, I’m not bulking right now and looking to cut instead. I was happily eating carbs that give insulin response when I bulked. If anything I needed this cut to get my insulin sensitivity back after bulking for 2 years on a less than clean diet (unless of course you think a slow cut is a poor way to restore insulin sensitivity).
I apologize also if I seem resistant to your points. It’s just that what you are suggesting is reverting back to how we viewed nutrition almost 15 years ago (when the federal govt vilified fats and promoted carbs). We are now in an age where carbs are the public enemy (more specifically sugars and refined wheat). I am open to opposing viewpoints though so I am very interested in what you are saying.
I have talked about and referenced this on this site before I think.
Pubmed and midline etc all have the details and sources.
I kinda got over linking them and then being asked for more. I can give a link on a woman’s blog who talks about it high carb diets. wheredogorillasgettheirprotein.blogspot.com.au/?m=1. I don’t agree with all of it but most.
Also Scott Abel who used to post on this site talks about it a lot
The way I see it is carbs are essentially your metabolism. You want your metabolism running right. Next come what that metabolism carries. Fat is not the enemy but too much is. Protein is also not the enemy but too much can be also.
[quote]Liam M wrote:
The way I see it is carbs are essentially your metabolism. You want your metabolism running right. Next come what that metabolism carries. Fat is not the enemy but too much is. Protein is also not the enemy but too much can be also. [/quote]
So you are against the idea of a low carb diet or even carb cycling I take it?
Either way thanks for giving your input; I will look at more literature seeing that I missed a lot of the other carb arguments. I’ve decided to continue carb cycling for now but being more lax about the carb sources and upping the amount of carbs taken slightly.
[quote]TC wrote:
Pwolves is right in that undercooking your pasta is overkill. The question interested me in an academic sense since I spent years testing the blood sugar response from different foods. However, regarding carbs and insulin sensitivity in general, let me recommend this article: http://www.T-Nation.com/supplements/eat-big-and-gain-nothing-but-muscle[/quote]
Haha ok I’m glad to hear that, I find that interesting as well. Just was a little shocked/concerned thinking you were recommending that as the fix for his confusion! Keep up the good work TC
Actually that’s pretty good progress not ‘modest’…
Add in variety and find what you like and cycle, I do rice, potatoes, purple and orange, pasta… whatever. Just eat the right foods at the right times in the right amounts.
There is no “bad” foods just bad times to eat those foods. Sugar is different from starchy carbs and I don’t really consider veggies carbs though they are…
If you are going without dairy already then just continue.
Fructose that comes from fruit is your livers preferred source of stored glycogen. On lower carb days I don’t do fructose. Your liver stores 80-100g and has means to acquire it through other nutrients.
Also the GI and GL are semi overated because they measure 50g of a certain type of carb eating alone, which when you add a salad and steak the GI or a sweet potato is now different, and lowered because of the Low GI carbs (veggies).