Confederate Flag: Pride or Bigotry?


Its heritage. A symbol of a people who said “fuck off” to a federal government that was imposing taxation on them, taxation that crippled their economy. A symbol of a people who said that a government cannot tell people how they should live their lives if those in power have not walked a mile in their shoes. After all, what does a new yorker know about farming in the Deep South?

Riddle me this, why is it ok, justified even, for thirteen colonies to violently break away from their rightful Monarch, but not ok for 11 states to leave a Union they voluntarily joined?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
amphibian wrote:
It doesn’t mean the same thing to all people that display it.

Good for them. However, even if the word “nigger” means “great guy” in Swahili, it would be in that person from that region’s best interest to realize it doesn’t mean the same here.

Get it?[/quote]

That’s certainly one way to react to my comment and your prerogative. However, it is not the only possible response nor an absolute truth.

Perception is for all intent and purpose reality and perception more often than not the causitive agent in any individual or group behavior.

Surely the racists aspects of the confederate flag are balanced out by the pure awsomeness of the General Lee?

V

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Surely the racists aspects of the confederate flag are balanced out by the pure awsomeness of the General Lee?

V[/quote]

You’d be surprised. That show did more to erase the negative connotation of that flag than many realize. My grandmother LOVED that show…and she also understood how that flag had been used by many as some sort of racist statement.

The bottom line is, it used to mean much more as far as racial relations. Today, it means far less but people should understand what it may still mean to some people.

If that one has a 426 HEMI, non of that racist 440 Magnum bullshit!

I understand this conversation may have been out of genuine curiousity but it stirred a boiling pot. To say that most blacks today aren’t offended is a gross generalization, to say that all those who have the rebel flag stuff are just proud of the south is also a gross generalization. This whole fuckin thing works both ways…there’s people who wear their rebel flag shit who are trying to push buttons but there are also those who may in fact support Jeffersonian principles and feel the rebelious nature is what this country needed then and needs today. Just as there are people who wear their “x” shirts who have similiar views just applied to a different topic. It’s all stupid conversation, to generalize the rebel flag wavers as a beacon of “hillbillyism” is one of the most ignorant statements I’ve read in a while.
There are racist conotations associated with the flag and with the X, but to generalize both of them is generally stupid.

[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
Riddle me this, why is it ok, justified even, for thirteen colonies to violently break away from their rightful Monarch, but not ok for 11 states to leave a Union they voluntarily joined?[/quote]

Good point, a question we may have but will never get an answer worth a damn to. Maybe good ol’ Lincoln could answer that…and that was sarcasm.

[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
Riddle me this, why is it ok, justified even, for thirteen colonies to violently break away from their rightful Monarch, but not ok for 11 states to leave a Union they voluntarily joined?[/quote]

Because the Union got more weapons and soldiers and won. Monopoly on violence, Locke and all that. Also, if the CSA had taken the Little Round Top at Gettysburg, they might have turned the Union flank and won the war soon after.

[quote]jcoop82 wrote:
DixiesFinest wrote:
Riddle me this, why is it ok, justified even, for thirteen colonies to violently break away from their rightful Monarch, but not ok for 11 states to leave a Union they voluntarily joined?

Good point, a question we may have but will never get an answer worth a damn to. Maybe good ol’ Lincoln could answer that…and that was sarcasm.[/quote]

Yeah, good point. We could also debate where and why Christopher Colombus got off track and discovered this chunk of land. Unfortunately, that’s not what this thread is about. At all.

Apply once daily, or as needed.

[quote]jcoop82 wrote:
DixiesFinest wrote:
Riddle me this, why is it ok, justified even, for thirteen colonies to violently break away from their rightful Monarch, but not ok for 11 states to leave a Union they voluntarily joined?

Good point, a question we may have but will never get an answer worth a damn to. Maybe good ol’ Lincoln could answer that…and that was sarcasm.[/quote]

Because they won.

And if you win you can force people to give you money to pay sycophantic historians.

So you see, violence is not all bad.

Yeah, good point. We could also debate where and why Christopher Colombus got off track and discovered this chunk of land. Unfortunately, that’s not what this thread is about. At all.

Apply once daily, or as needed.[/quote]

Good job ass, let me know when you get sore from patting yourself on the back. Nor is this thread about being a complete dickhead and flexing your online muscles.

[quote]SSC wrote:
And seriously, what do people in the south have to be proud about? That it’s hot? That Mississippi is like the worst state in the nation (sans Indiana.) Or maybe that they have the best conference in college football?

I don’t get it. They [i]LOST[/i] the war. It’d be like romping around down in Vietnam with an American flag, sticking our tongues out at them. Whaa?

So my answer: It’s niether pride nor bigotry. It’s hillbilly-ism.[/quote]

You sir, are an idiot.

So, Mississippi is the worst state huh? Ever been there? Ever lived there? I happened to have lived there for 3 years (and still own a house in the delta). I have a lot of friends there many of whom are native to the state. So, please explain to me, so I can convey to them, why they have the worst state.

Second, your Vietnam comparison is stupid. You have to remember that because the north won, we are all still US citizens. There the southerners with their confederate flags were not, and are not foreigners. And also that as a US citizen, didn’t I win the war too? There are no confederate citizens to own the loss.

Next, the civil war WAS NOT about slavery. If anything it was a minor issue and even then only later in the war. Taxation without representation, there are many parallels between the civil war and the revolutionary war except of course for which side won. The declaration of independence is about as appropriate for southern secession as US independence.

I wonder if the revolutionaries would have been painted as fighting for their slaves had they lost. Slavery in Brittan was banned more than, what, 30 years before in the US. If we hadn’t broken away slavery would have been banned sooner here. Those horrible racist patriots…

The other thing to note in the civil war is that there were slave states on BOTH sides. Yes there were 5 northern slave states (Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri, and West Virginia) as well as 2 slave territories. So how were they “fighting to free the slaves” when they still had slaves at home?

A couple of interesting facts about the emancipation proclamation: Aside from entirely overstepping all law and constitutional authority in assuming it’s power (something Lincoln did a lot of), it purposely did NOT, in it’s own words, apply to all slaves. Go read it. It guarantees the right of northern slave states and territories to keep their slaves and offers the same right to any confederate state willing to rejoin the union within 100 days.

Even if, after knowing that, you still acknowledge that the act freed the southern slaves, there is an interesting twist. The confederacy, under the emancipation proclamation was entirely free of slavery BEFORE the union was. Northern slaves weren’t freed until the 13th amendment later on.

Which of course just furthers the point that the federal government was bullying the south, something they’d been doing for years.

But I guess, “preservation of the union” was worth a million lives. I mean without those southern states, who would they have to push around and tax? But I guess if preserving a union of government is so important, Virginia should have invaded and conquered West Virginia when those people seceded to remain with the union. Maybe they still should. Violating the state constitution and all. Who’s with me on invading West Virginia for their treachery of secession? Even it costs a million lives, it’s worth it because those people obviously aren’t able to responsibly self govern.

Aside, from that, the battle flag of the confederacy is now a racist symbol I no longer want to be associated with. If you think it represents you, go for it.

It did (in the 1800s) fly for states rights and fair representation. Since then it’s flown in the name of segregation, and burning crosses.

Fortunately for me and other states rights advocates filled with southern pride, there are other choices.

The way I look at it is some people wear it because they truly love where they grew up/southern pride/whatever, and I’m perfectly alright with that. My issue with it is when I see a kid in my high school wearing a huge confederate flag belt buckle around school the day after a shooting at a local movie theatre the day of that 50 cent movie.

He has grown up in an urban town his entire life, has no connections with the south besides his Kenny Chesney cds, that to me is just a sign of bigotry. I said before that my view was going to be very biased having grown up in Pittsburgh and am ignorant of what people in the south feel–thus why I started the thread.

I grew up and lived the majority of my adult life within a hundred miles of the Mason-Dixon line. (if I had to be “pegged”, most people would call me a yuppie) In my first career I worked as a project manager for a major construction contractor whose job sites were mostly in Washington DC, so I had the opportunity to meet LOTS of different blue collar guys from both the “northern” and “southern” persuasion. There is a lot of history here from the Civil War, as most of the most famous battles were fought within a few hundred miles of where I grew up.

In my opinion the confederate flag and the “southern” (I’ll call it Redneck as opposed to Hillbilly as they find that term less offensive) lifestyle, is a cultural phenomenon that is identified with my many white, under - educated, god fearin, hard workin, non - city livin, bud lite drinkin, and culturally biased (not necessarily racist) Americans. It (the flag) goes right along with (as SSC pointed out) big trucks (American made!), a can of skoal in the front shirt pocket, huntin’ and fishen’, Carhardt jackets, Red Wing boots, music involving a Guitar, and an unbelievably strong Obsession with NASCAR(we know what NASCAR stands for, right? Non Athletic Sport Centered Around Rednecks)to the point where they will get their Nextel phones’ ringtone to sound like race cars driving by… Rednecks are Brand-loyal if nothing else… (very easy to market to…)

(not to go on a tangent here, but when NASCAR legend Dale Earnhardt was killed in an accident almost a decade ago, there was a local “grass roots” commemoration in the DC area called “the victory lap” or the “final lap” where all the rednecks got in their trucks, painted #8 with soap on their cars and windows, and did a “lap” around the capital beltway… It was scary. In like a day, 100,000 redneck were able to mobilize and coordinate around a common objective… Traffic was paralyzed, there were impromptu road side gatherings, it was like a fucking redneck invasion… I’ve never seen anything like it… It made me very nervous, honestly and a little sad… They did this over a NASCAR driver, as opposed to any of the other injustices of the world - they evidently don’t care about those things)

They have a very fascinating cultural identity. We all have “identities” or “tribes” that we subscribe to. It is an entirely learned set of rules, behaviors and beliefs. (Humans lived in tribes for hundreds of thousands of years - those evolutionary instincts won’t just “go away” because we developed some technology and built cities to live in for the past 200 years…) There are a lot more commonalities to various “Tribes” than many of them would like to admit… One of the most prominent “trans-tribal” belief is an innate distrust / dislike of anyone NOT in your tribe! (that doesn’t make you a racist)

Is this “racist”? It certainly appears that way, but this “innate mistrust” is also directed at differences in Lifestyle, Location, Education, Economic stature, and a score of other differences. But I’ve also seen plenty of Rednecks working happily along side of black or hispanic co-workers getting along very well - joking, busting eachother’s balls, helping and sticking up for eachother. Their identity as electricians or plumbers was stronger at that time than their identity as rednecks… This leads me to believe that any openly displayed hostility is more “tribal” than racist. It is just ignorance, not hate. (I’m sure there are exceptions, there always are with everything - nothing in this world is absolute)

I’ve also been in meetings (many different circumstances) with highly educated, seemingly evolved white men, where as soon as no-one is looking start dropping the “N-bomb” all over the place and being truly Racist as opposed to just ignorant.

While I’ve been around various “tribes” of people, I have found the Rednecks to be hardworking, honest to a fault, loyal beyond reason, and Proud to be American. They love their guns, their beer, and their country, and they’ll die for it. They are easy to mock and make fun of for sure, but so is everyone else.

I believe the confederate flag is NOT a symbol of racism. However, I can put myself on the other side and appreciate why some people would feel that way. Personally, all the confederate flag means to me is that it reminds me of the old TV show “the Dukes of Hazard” - that’s what I think of when I see it… LOL

[quote]jcoop82 wrote:

Yeah, good point. We could also debate where and why Christopher Colombus got off track and discovered this chunk of land. Unfortunately, that’s not what this thread is about. At all.

Apply once daily, or as needed.

Good job ass, let me know when you get sore from patting yourself on the back. Nor is this thread about being a complete dickhead and flexing your online muscles.

[/quote]

No.

It is about being a complete dickhead in real life.

And once you are the greatest douche on the block you get a flag and goons in uniform and you are always right because you say so.

You are looking for complex answers were there only are simple ones.

[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
Its heritage. A symbol of a people who said “fuck off” to a federal government that was imposing taxation on them, taxation that crippled their economy. A symbol of a people who said that a government cannot tell people how they should live their lives if those in power have not walked a mile in their shoes. After all, what does a new yorker know about farming in the Deep South?[/quote]

Well I think the problem is the fact of what the backbone of Southern economy(and politics) was at the time. Negative connotations will always be attached to that particular flag because of that fact.

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
DixiesFinest wrote:
Its heritage. A symbol of a people who said “fuck off” to a federal government that was imposing taxation on them, taxation that crippled their economy. A symbol of a people who said that a government cannot tell people how they should live their lives if those in power have not walked a mile in their shoes. After all, what does a new yorker know about farming in the Deep South?

Well I think the problem is the fact of what the backbone of Southern economy(and politics) was at the time. Negative connotations will always be attached to that particular flag because of that fact. [/quote]

Again, I would hesitate to use the word “always”. Somthing like “It will be that way throughout my lifetime” I could live with, but certainly the symbol will lose it’s effect over time.

V

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
DixiesFinest wrote:
Its heritage. A symbol of a people who said “fuck off” to a federal government that was imposing taxation on them, taxation that crippled their economy. A symbol of a people who said that a government cannot tell people how they should live their lives if those in power have not walked a mile in their shoes. After all, what does a new yorker know about farming in the Deep South?

Well I think the problem is the fact of what the backbone of Southern economy(and politics) was at the time. Negative connotations will always be attached to that particular flag because of that fact.

Again, I would hesitate to use the word “always”. Somthing like “It will be that way throughout my lifetime” I could live with, but certainly the symbol will lose it’s effect over time.

V[/quote]

Hmm…I don’t know. Maybe so…maybe not. More likely,there will just be more mixed feelings as there are now. There are black people who are not bothered by it in general. If its blatantly being used to promote a persons racial views…then I have a problem…but thats with their racism…not the flag. You’re not going to see me throw a fit just because people choose to wear the symbol…and scream at them for being racist.

However misconstrued points are about the flag…you can’t deny the underlying attachments to that flag. It in itself is not racist…it can be used to promote racism,of course…but it is not what it represents. But you have to look at how someone would use it to promote racism in the first place. People that do so obviously recognize what it means to black people. It means a time period that we were being oppressed inhumanly…a time period when slavery was the backbone of Southern states economy. This is an issue of perspective when talking about that flag.

Another perspective is that some peoplev iew the flag as simply a symbol of rebellion. My wife even has told me that people waved the Confederate flag when the Berlin wall was being torn down. I’ve seen pictures of freedom fighters in Africa waving the flag as well.