(Sept 2013 - updated with new labs and back on TRT - see end)
I am fully prepared to be slammed by everyone that says it is for life, but here we go!! I have been on TRT for about a year. I have gotten my T levels and E2 dialed in well, but if I look at it objectively the only benefit I have seen is:
quick and noticeable response to working out (easier to put on muscle)
Here are the negatives
-no increase in libido
no increase in energy levels
-the creams didn’t work and the injections leave burning, red, itchy lumps no matter where I place them, both with T Cyp and T Enan. I have even tried smaller doses 3x/week to no avail.
-Elevated Hematocrit and Hemoglobin
Very greasy skin
-bad body acne flare-ups
-all in all just no real qualitative benefits
-A cost of about $100/month for the T, HCG, and AI
-Time spent
I started TRT because my TT was not great and I had numerous symptoms that mimicked this, but I truly believe it was due to long-term prescribed use of xanax and the daily withdrawals I was going through until my evening dose. I switched to valium and am tapering off of that and it made a world of difference. With that said I want to be as gentle on my body as I can so I need a good PCT so I don’t crash anymore than I already am from the benzo tapering.
Prior to TRT my numbers were (sorry I lost the ranges but they were fairly standard that I have seen most report)
TT 419
FT 69.6
E2 16
LH 1.1
FSH 2.1
My LH has been below normal for at least a decade (late 20s until now age 39) so I guess I have always been secondary to some degree.
Any helpful tips, advice, protocols, etc for coming off TRT? I have read so many different variations of just HCg, HCG+SERM, HCG+SERM+AI, HCG+2SERMS and on and on that I am royally confused. Thanks in advance.
I feel a ya. My hematocrit is also elevated my cholesterol has dropped and good cholesterol is below range. Also farritin is low now and if I get a phlebotomy my iron stores will just be depleted more. I also have not had any really strong benefits and I don’t feel my doctors know enough as they didn’t even notice these thing have changed and said nothing about them being out of range.
I have no idea what to do so you are not alone. I feel like the risks outweighs the benefits… I can’t even find any info on what to do. I’m just now thinking I might be able to get my doc on board but am wondering if there is any point!!
[quote]iw84aces wrote:
I feel a ya. My hematocrit is also elevated my cholesterol has dropped and good cholesterol is below range. Also farritin is low now and if I get a phlebotomy my iron stores will just be depleted more. I also have not had any really strong benefits and I don’t feel my doctors know enough as they didn’t even notice these thing have changed and said nothing about them being out of range. I have no idea what to do so you are not alone. I feel like the risks outweighs the benefits… I can’t even find any info on what to do. I’m just now thinking I might be able to get my doc on board but am wondering if there is any point!![/quote]
I know there are benefits that may not be tangible (cardiovascular, etc) but for those of us that don’t reap the other rewards I wonder if it is worth it. I gave blood and it knocked me on my butt for 3 days. Not sure if it points to other issues or if I am just a wimp! Thanks
And just in case someone sees something I don’t, here is a snippet from my latest bloodwork in April 2013. The numbers look decent to me and still not feeling anything (although I have often wondered why my SHBG is low but is that a bad thing??). Thanks
iodine intake history - I USE IODIZED SALT, HAVE SOME IODINE IN MY MULTIVITAMIN AND TAKE AN IODORAL TABLET DAILY.
body temperatures - MY BODY TEMPERATURES IN THE MORNING VARY FROM 97.2 TO 98.0 AND SETTLE IN AROUND 98.8-99 IN THE AFTERNOONS.
history of stress, accidents, infections,surgeries, crisis etc- TONS OF STRESS OVER THE PAST FIVE YEARS - DIVORCE, CHANGING JOBS, LOSING HOUSE, MOVED 5 TIMES, GRANDPARENTS DYING, LOST JOB, STARTED OWN COMPANY, ETC
AM cortisol - WAS MORE MESSED UP IN THE PAST BUT TESTING IN APRIL 2013 SHOWS
AM - 4.3 (3.7-9.5)
NOON 1.7 (1.2-3.0)
EVENING 2.3H (0.6-1.9)
NIGHT 0.9 (0.4-1.0)
other med issues or complaints, past and current
SEVERELY ELEVATED LIPIDS WHEN NOT ON LOW CARB DIET
NODULE ON THYROID IN COLLEGE THAT WENT AWAY. FAMILY HISTORY OF HYPOTHYROID
FASTING BLOOD SUGAR USUALLY SLIGHTLY ELEVATED BUT H1AC WAS COMPLETELY NORMAL
IN GENERAL, LACK OF ENERGY, MOTIVATION, SEX DRIVE, ERECTIONS, ETC
NO RECENT HEAD INJURIES BUT AS A BABY I FELL DOWN THE STAIRS AND HIT MY HEAD ON A CONCRETE WALL, AS A KID I FLIPPED OVER MY HANDLEBARS AND GOT A MILD CONCUSSION.
OTHERWISE, NO MAJOR HEALTH ISSUES OTHER THAN BEING A HYPOCHONDRIAC!
drugs, OTC or otherwise
TEST ENANTHATE - 100MG WEEKLY DIVIDED
HCG - 500 MG WEEKLY DIVIDED
ARIMIDEX - 0.3 MG WEEKLY DIVIDED
VALIUM - CURRENTLY 1.5 MG DAILY AND TAPERING DOWN
TOPICAL ROGAINE
ATENOLOL - 25 MG DAILY - BETA BLOCKER FOR THE PAST 3 WEEKS TO COUNTERACT THE ELEVATED BP AND PULSE RATE CAUSED BY TAPERING OFF THE BENZO. IT HAS MADE ME FEEL BETTER ALTHOUGH MORE EASILY WINDED. I HAVE ALSO HAD THE FIRST SPONTANEOUS ERECTIONS AND HAVE NOT HAD TO USE CIALIS SINCE BEING ON IT ALTHOUGH THIS COULD ALSO BE DUE TO DECREASING MY BENZO USAGE.
Do not start new threads, stay here. Your case is already fragmented.
Your TSH and slightly elevated fT3 suggests possible rT3 and adrenal fatigue issues. I WILL RESEARCH RT3. PREVIOUSLY ADRENAL FATIGUE WAS DIAGNOSED AND SEEMED TO BE CORRECTED SOMEWHAT.
Looking for other causes of your not feeling so good. AMEN!
What differences with IM VS SC injections? I HAVE NEVER DONE IM INJECTIONS. THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SC IN THE ABDOMEN, LOVE HANDLES, GLUTES, THIGHS, ETC. CONSENSUS WAS THAT ALLERGIC REACTION WOULD HAPPEN IM OR SC SO I NEVER TRIED IM.
What was lab timing for above results?
THE ABOVE LABS WERE TAKEN IN THE MORNING AT ABOUT 8AM
Describe your complete protocol in place for those labs and any changes since.[/quote]
AT THE TIME OF THOSE LABS I WAS DOING
50MG TEST ENANTHATE 2X PER WEEK
250MG HCG 2X PER WEEK
0.3 MG ARIMIDEX PER WEEK
THE ONLY CHANGE WAS I HAVE INCREASED TO 3X PER WEEK FOR THE TEST THINKING A SMALLER DOSE WOULD RESULT IN LESS INFLAMMATION WITH THE INJECTIONS.
I AM POSTING OTHER RESULTS FROM THE MOST RECENT BLOODWORK IN THE FOLLOWING IMAGES AS WELL IN CASE THEY PROVIDE ANY INSIGHT.
THANK YOU FOR THE HELP AND LET ME KNOW IF MY RATIONALE IS WRONG, BUT I DON’T SEE A NEED TO BE ON TRT IF I DON’T HAVE ANY TANGIBLE RESULTS. IF THERE IS ANOTHER UNDERLYING ISSUE THAT I SHOULD ADDRESS THEN I WILL BRING IT UP TO MY DOCTOR ON THURSDAY AT MY APPOINTMENT. IF YOU NEED ANY OTHER INFO PLEASE DO NOT HESITATE TO ASK AND IF IN AGREEMENT PLEASE PROVIDE ANY GUIDANCE YOU CAN ON A PCT. hAVE A GREAT DAY.
How are you doing skin prep prior to injections?
Wipe with prep pad or scrub?
Try IM injection if you can get into muscle. Skin has more defence functions, that is its job. If no help, lesson learned.
It would be interesting to be able to inject cotton seed oil by itself and see what happens. But hard to find that. Might be easier to get some ethanate that seems to often be made with sesame oil. Might need to do some research for a target first before you ask doc. Talk to phamacist and see what candidates there are.
You AM cortisol was bad, which supports the adrenal idea possibility. Your body temps are not bad, so effect of rT3 is not extreme. You could try some T3 as a trial drug to see how that effects your sense of well being. If you take T4, that might simply lead to more T4–>rT3. Note how adrenal and thyroid functions can be intertwined leading to two pathologies at once.
Many guys who are not frankly hypogonadal to begin with don’t respond well to TRT. Not everyone needs a lot of T and your decision to come off is a valid one.
Your original lowish free T could have been a result of the Xanax.
Your current thyroid problems (if any), could be from the Valium.
Look at the “Test taper protocol” on the steroids thread (google it if you can’t find it right away). It’s not a bad way of coming off and you don’t need ancillary drugs for doing it.
Long term use of Valium (or Xanax) can cause LOTS of health problems and symptoms mimicking all kinds of other conditions. Some of your symptoms, such as low libido, low energy, mental/concentration/memory issues, etc., will probably continue for as long as your are on Valium. For this reason, few doctors prescribe benzos anymore for more than short-term - it is NOT the standard of long term care for almost any health condition any longer and I would be suspicious of a doctor who prescribes it long term. It also does not help for long for anything - at this point you are probably just treating your benzo dependence, not any base condition you may have. You really need to find an alternative.
[quote]KSman wrote:
How are you doing skin prep prior to injections?
Wipe with prep pad or scrub?
Try IM injection if you can get into muscle. Skin has more defence functions, that is its job. If no help, lesson learned.
It would be interesting to be able to inject cotton seed oil by itself and see what happens. But hard to find that. Might be easier to get some ethanate that seems to often be made with sesame oil. Might need to do some research for a target first before you ask doc. Talk to phamacist and see what candidates there are.
You AM cortisol was bad, which supports the adrenal idea possibility. Your body temps are not bad, so effect of rT3 is not extreme. You could try some T3 as a trial drug to see how that effects your sense of well being. If you take T4, that might simply lead to more T4–>rT3. Note how adrenal and thyroid functions can be intertwined leading to two pathologies at once.[/quote]
I read one of your posts about scrubbing and I have been really cleaning the area but it makes no difference. Unless I am allergic to testosterone then I am allergic to both sesame and cottonseed! I spoke with a compounding pharmacy and he said they don’t make custom injectables anymore because of the liability and these two preps are the only ones the pharmacy said they can get (costco and cvs). I will explore the T3 with my doc and keep an eye on the adrenal issue. Thanks
[quote]seekonk wrote:
Many guys who are not frankly hypogonadal to begin with don’t respond well to TRT. Not everyone needs a lot of T and your decision to come off is a valid one.
Your original lowish free T could have been a result of the Xanax.
Your current thyroid problems (if any), could be from the Valium.
Look at the “Test taper protocol” on the steroids thread (google it if you can’t find it right away). It’s not a bad way of coming off and you don’t need ancillary drugs for doing it.
Long term use of Valium (or Xanax) can cause LOTS of health problems and symptoms mimicking all kinds of other conditions. Some of your symptoms, such as low libido, low energy, mental/concentration/memory issues, etc., will probably continue for as long as your are on Valium. For this reason, few doctors prescribe benzos anymore for more than short-term - it is NOT the standard of long term care for almost any health condition any longer and I would be suspicious of a doctor who prescribes it long term. It also does not help for long for anything - at this point you are probably just treating your benzo dependence, not any base condition you may have. You really need to find an alternative.
[/quote]
Your benzo comments are right on the head. 5 years ago my psychiatrist said that if I could stay at no more than 0.5 mg a day of xanax that I would never get addicted or have any issues whatsoever. For the past 2.5 years I have been to every doctor wondering why I felt like I was dying every day for about 4 hours. I finally figured out I was in tolerance withdrawal and when I asked my Psychiatrist last year he says “yep, sounds like you need to come off” - I could have killed him. Anyway, I have learned that it literally impacts almost every body system which is why I am trying to taper off slowly (I need to be able to work, raise 5 kids, etc) so I am trying to get off slowly, and it is pure hell!!!
Anyway, the test taper protocol. I see it says get off HCG and AI and then taper. People argue back and forth about using a SERM so I am confused. Also wondering about tapering because most information I have read says that any amount of T introduced shuts down your own production. I learned this the hard way when I was on too low of a dose of T Cream and my levels fell below where they were prior to treatment. I just want to avoid crashing from T levels tanking when I am already sort of tanking from coming off the benzo!!
But are all eth produces sesame?
Some are sensitive to benzyl alcohol, but you have that in the BA water for your hCG.
There is the soy sensitivity for hormones created from soy feedstock.
[quote]KSman wrote:
But are all eth produces sesame?
Some are sensitive to benzyl alcohol, but you have that in the BA water for your hCG.
There is the soy sensitivity for hormones created from soy feedstock.[/quote]
Here is what is in my scrips
T Enanthate - contains Chlorobutanol and Sesamae Oil
T Cyp - contains Benzyl Benzoate, Benzyl Alcohol and Cottonseed Oil
HCG - contains sodium chloride and benzyl alcohol
My Pharmacist said sesame is the only oil used for Enanthate, but I am sure someone makes something different.
Perhaps the soy allergy is an issue since the scrips contain different things but produce the same negative results!
I never had issues with prescription T-Cyp as far as lumps or soreness or redness (PIP). What I did have was poor libido response. Same thing with T-Enth, and I ran the gambit with frequency and amount per dosage. What I did find is that my sense of well being and libido were night and day different when I use Testosterone Propionate.
If you read through this, and the steroids forum, or generally google Test-P and libido you will find a huge amount of information that pertains to this subject. There are many that say, test is test, be it Cyp, Enth, Prop or suspension, but I am telling you Test Prop is what gave me the feelings that you are searching for.
Now, it seems like you have a Dr. that is very co-operative so he may let you try Test-P. My doc isn’t so nice, and I had to get mine via the dark side…and no, I cannot tell you where. But, with a little digging you can figure it out.
[quote]PKNY wrote:
I never had issues with prescription T-Cyp as far as lumps or soreness or redness (PIP). What I did have was poor libido response. Same thing with T-Enth, and I ran the gambit with frequency and amount per dosage. What I did find is that my sense of well being and libido were night and day different when I use Testosterone Propionate.
If you read through this, and the steroids forum, or generally google Test-P and libido you will find a huge amount of information that pertains to this subject. There are many that say, test is test, be it Cyp, Enth, Prop or suspension, but I am telling you Test Prop is what gave me the feelings that you are searching for.
Now, it seems like you have a Dr. that is very co-operative so he may let you try Test-P. My doc isn’t so nice, and I had to get mine via the dark side…and no, I cannot tell you where. But, with a little digging you can figure it out.
Hope this helps in whatever you decide.
[/quote]
Thanks PKNY. If I decide to stay on or go back if the restart doesn’t work, then perhaps I will give it a try. Yes I will go the legal route - my doctor is very open to trying different things until we find something that works. Thanks
[quote]KSman wrote:
But are all eth produces sesame?
Some are sensitive to benzyl alcohol, but you have that in the BA water for your hCG.
There is the soy sensitivity for hormones created from soy feedstock.[/quote]
Also KSman, I found a post years ago about some recommendations you made regarding PCT, but in case things have changed, do you have any recommendations for someone like me to try and transition smoothly? As I said before there seems to be so many conflicting views on the most appropriate PCT that I am a little lost. Thanks
PCT: There is no reason to expect that there are not different valid approaches. The key points are to avoid LH receptor desensitization, estrogen dominance while on PCT and estrogen rebound when stopping PCT. One must taper off of SERM’s. Land on a small AI dose to prevent estrogen rebound, which has implications for those who are over responders.
In your case, you have been on hCG, so you do not need to get on that to reach a level of physical recovery that that can provide. Suggest that you swap SERM for hCG, then after a while taper off of T, then later taper off of T. The SERM will get your hypothalamus and pituitary into the game.
There is a lot of bro-science that does everything wrong, need to filter that out. Guys who do those dumb things as they get off of gear will point to how that worked. I point at that and say that their HPTA still works despite their actions. When your HPTA is not right, then things need to be done right.
have you told your doc your tapering off? you may want to consider suburex/suboxone to get off the other meds…short term mabe a year
on a low dose… the half life for both meds is 35-48 hrs…some take every other day or every day. if your need more info pm me.
[quote]KSman wrote:
PCT: There is no reason to expect that there are not different valid approaches. The key points are to avoid LH receptor desensitization, estrogen dominance while on PCT and estrogen rebound when stopping PCT. One must taper off of SERM’s. Land on a small AI dose to prevent estrogen rebound, which has implications for those who are over responders.
In your case, you have been on hCG, so you do not need to get on that to reach a level of physical recovery that that can provide. Suggest that you swap SERM for hCG, then after a while taper off of T, then later taper off of T. The SERM will get your hypothalamus and pituitary into the game.
There is a lot of bro-science that does everything wrong, need to filter that out. Guys who do those dumb things as they get off of gear will point to how that worked. I point at that and say that their HPTA still works despite their actions. When your HPTA is not right, then things need to be done right.[/quote]
Ok, let me know if this sounds crazy to present to my doctor…
-Replace HCG with Clomid 25-50mg/day and continue for about 45 days
-Taper T injections to 0 over 2 weeks
-low dose Arimidex throughout to keep E2 in check and continue for a few weeks beyond Clomid dose
(However, I read alot of entries stating that Nolvadex is superior to Clomid because it doesn’t have the same side effect and mood swing issues that Clomid does. Lord knows I don’t need anymore anxiety or depression so is Nolva better SERM?)
