Just got back from the doctor’s and he agreed with getting off the TRT and seeing if possible to get things going again. He recommended
Stop the T shots
Continue HCG only for another week since it is mildly LH surpressing, but will keep the boys active while the supplemental T gets out of my system.
Clomid - 100 mg a week divided. He said at that low dose he has not had anyone experience the bad side effects (he does it as well) and he has better luck than using Nolvadex. He recommends like 3 months on it.
Anastrozole - Continue until after Clomid cycle is done to ensure E2 maintains in control. He says 2mg a week but is that too high?
Best part is I went to Rite Aid and Clomid was only $22 for a 90 day supply without insurance (insurance wanted a $108 copay!!) and Anastrozole was only $7 (can’t believe insurance covered it for a man)
I have finished taking the HCG and my last T shot was the beginning of last week. I will say that I have had morning wood consistently since stopping the tshots. Maybe it is just from getting lower on my benzo dose or maybe the HCG was working better solo. Anyway, I have 2 days of Clomid under my belt. Question, based on my docs recommendations, I am not taking things daily. Does the following make sense considering half lives of these drugs…
[quote]cirerecrem wrote: Also wondering about tapering because most information I have read says that any amount of T introduced shuts down your own production. I learned this the hard way when I was on too low of a dose of T Cream and my levels fell below where they were prior to treatment.
[/quote]
It’s not true at all that any amount of T will shut down your production.
The reason T creams can actually make your T lower than before is because they can cause more of the T to be converted into E2 in the skin, and it is mostly E2 that suppresses the body’s own T production. Injections usually don’t cause as much E2 conversion.
Steroid tapers are the standard of care in medicine for coming off long term use when it comes to conticosteroids (e.g., Prednisone or Hydrocortisone). I think the reason doctors don’t usually prescribe tapers when it comes to testosterone is that the side effects of going cold turkey are not life threatening, as they can be for conticosteroid tapers.
Donating blood a month ago must have really worked. Hematocrit is down to 45.1 and hemoglobin is 15.7. I would hate to see how low it was after I donated. Anyway, now just on Clomid and Arimidex. So far so good. Morning wood every morning and mood has been good. Would still like to hear any comments on whether Clomid 25mg EOD and Arimidex 0.25mg 2x/week seems like a decent TRT PCT. Thanks
So it has been a little over 2 weeks on the PCT. Perhaps it is all in my head but I feel like my levels are crashing. The past few days I have been moody, muscles twitching, looks like I have lost mass, morning wood decreased, extreme fatigue, etc. I assume I have no choice but to ride it out??? Right?? and see if the Clomid kicks my Pituitary into gear.
When you come off T, your E2 will drop as your T drops, and often drops too low, so you don’t want to further suppress it with arimidex. The Clomid is fine, but I never understood why people would recommend arimidex in this situation - it’s based on internet misunderstandings by bodybuilders who are not always the brightest bulbs in the firmament, I would certainly never use it, and I don’t think most doctors who do this kind of thing will tell you it’s a good idea.
[quote]seekonk wrote:
Those can be side effects of too low E2.
When you come off T, your E2 will drop as your T drops, and often drops too low, so you don’t want to further suppress it with arimidex. The Clomid is fine, but I never understood why people would recommend arimidex in this situation - it’s based on internet misunderstandings by bodybuilders who are not always the brightest bulbs in the firmament, I would certainly never use it, and I don’t think most doctors who do this kind of thing will tell you it’s a good idea. [/quote]
This may make sense in my case. When on TRT I only needed 0.25 mg arimidex/week to keep good E2 levels. My doc told me to take 2mg a week but I only took 0.50mg/week figuring he was way off. I guess if I responded strongly to it with tons of T floating around, then I certainly don’t need more as T is dropping?? I will try and not use it or scale back more and see if I come back through a sweet spot. (my knuckles and elbows have also been killing me so the joint pain may also indicate the same thing). Thanks
Just a little update. Mopey as hell, no morning wood, no strength to exercise, and my girl just soaped me up in the shower and my dick sat there staring down the drain. I have to assume my T levels are tanked and my testes haven’t caught up yet. Got some blood drawn just to see where things stand and will post results when received.
It’s been 6 days since taking an AI and my ankles have stopped clicking and I don’t have elbow and knuckle pain, but it hasn’t helped with the other symptoms. If this keeps up I may have to consider back on TRT, but I may try the topical route since I seem to have such bad reactions to the injections. uuurrrggg
Damn, Today is worse than yesterday. I want to bite an old ladies head off and then shed tears because I did it, but I probably couldn’t because I am so tired and weak that she could outrun me. I am wondering if it is Clomid or just tanked levels. Trying to see if the doc will send me nolva to try instead. Gotta figure something out.
Ok. I am almost ready to say screw the PCT. I am miserable. Everything hurts, i am weak, my sleep is screwed, my mood is horrible, I have lost some weight, etc etc etc. If nothing else perhaps I shouldn’t have tried it now while I am trying to come off benzos. I think the combo is too much. I may not have had great results from TRT, but perhaps I will try the cream route.
Any issues with just shooting some T Cyp again until i get to the doc? I only took 12 mg Clomid yesterday.
Ok. I made it about 1 month on the PCT and have given up on quitting for now. Here are my latest labs. My doctor says even though we only gave it 1 month, we should have seen some increase in LH/FSH from the clomid. Since they are still tanked and my Total T has dropped to 120, I’m going back on TRT.
Question - Why is my free T always calculated in range? Even back when I was around 300 TT, my Free T was at the high end of the range. Is it arbitrary based on a formula, is it actually analyzed at the lab, is it because my SHBG levels aren’t high???
Any other comments about the labs before I jump back on?
The doctor is trying me on 50mg/day compounded cream and will adjust from there. We are trying the cream because I have such bad inflammation from the shots and there is also some evidence it is better on lipids, at increasing DHT, doesn’t increase H&H as much, etc…
Well, I have injected 100 mg in the past 5 days since I have to wait to get my cream. Glory be on Day 3 the morning wood came back, today I felt like having sex, I was able to play with my kids, and I have been laughing and joking again. Having TT levels of 120 was crazy. Don’t want that again.
Doctor prescribed 25mg of compounded cream per day. This seems very low to me assuming only 10% absorption. Even androgel starts you at 40mg. When I was on T Cyp at 100mg/week, that equals 70mg of testosterone or 10 mg per day. Testes produce 5-10mg per day. So in my calculations the cream should be dosed at 70-100mg per day to get in a good range… Does this sound right???
Absorption rates are always unknown while injected delivery is 100% while been least cost. Creams do produce less E2 than T gels and more DHT than injection – which is good for libido.
I agree, based on 10%, cream application should be 70mg. Apply to forearms and inner upper arms. Apply to wrist and wipe arm against arm to distribute. Be careful around kids re transfer.
Based on your thyroid labs, I do not see anything that suggests that you will be a non-absorber.
[quote]KSman wrote:
Absorption rates are always unknown while injected delivery is 100% while been least cost. Creams do produce less E2 than T gels and more DHT than injection – which is good for libido.
I agree, based on 10%, cream application should be 70mg. Apply to forearms and inner upper arms. Apply to wrist and wipe arm against arm to distribute. Be careful around kids re transfer.
Based on your thyroid labs, I do not see anything that suggests that you will be a non-absorber.
Ok, doctor told me to bump it up to 50mg and we will see how it works at the next set of labs. I forgot to mention, he is one that believes topical Chrysin is an effective AI and has it compounded in at a dose of 200mg Chrysin to 50mg T. I am going to forgo the anastrazole for these few weeks just to see if it works.
You stated "-A cost of about $100/month for the T, HCG, and AI "
Where were you getting all that for 100.00 it cost me just under 200.00 for all 3. Test 200mg, HCG 2000iu, AI
[quote]55david wrote:
You stated "-A cost of about $100/month for the T, HCG, and AI "
Where were you getting all that for 100.00 it cost me just under 200.00 for all 3. Test 200mg, HCG 2000iu, AI [/quote]
HCg at costco for $90 (lasts 6 weeks)($180 at CVS!)
T Cyp - Costco $20 (insurance covers it)
AI - at Rite Aid $10. Or Research Chem.
Approximately 1 month on TRT cream dose of 50mg with 100mg Chrysin and here are the results.
My total T looks a little low but the Free T is high, my H&H are creeping up again, but the Chrysin actually seems to of kept my Estradiol right in the sweet spot… I have a followup today and my doc wants to try the blood spot test from ZRT. According to those guys, using serum does not accurately quantify hormone levels when you are on topical creams. Any thoughts??? (there are more extensive papers about this but I can’t place my finger on it…)
Using Topical Hormone Supplementation
â??A fourth and very important reason to use blood spot testing is that, like saliva, hormones present in the â??capillaryâ?? blood from the finger are more representative of the hormones being delivered to other tissues of the body. With hormones delivered through the skin (e.g., topical, vaginal, sublingual/troche) as supplements, the capillary blood spot hormone level rises in concert with an increase in salivary hormone levels because this represents hormone delivery to tissues throughout the body. In sharp contrast, blood taken by conventional venipuncture rises very little, not at all, or even decreases in some cases with skin delivery of hormones. This might seem odd, but blood being delivered back to the heart through the veins has already delivered its bioavailable hormone load, and hormones remaining in the bloodstream are tightly bound to serum proteins such as SHBG and albumin. An easy way to conceptualize capillary blood (teaming with bioavailable hormones) versus venus blood (depleted of bioavailable hormones) is to think of the oxygen content of red blood cells in the capillary beds versus the venus blood returning to the heart. Blood being delivered to the tissues through the arteries, arterioles, and finally through the capillary beds of tissues is charged with oxygen that is released into the tissues. Blood traveling back to the heart is depleted of oxygen. In a similar way, hormones delivered through the skin are picked up by red blood cells, and the hormone-laden red blood cells are then transported within seconds throughout the body to capillary beds of all tissues. There the hormones are released. This is why we see high capillary blood levels of hormones in blood spot testing and much less hormone in venipuncture serum.
Probably valid issues, but probably not needed. How much will that cost above serum?
With transdermals, FT spikes after application. So that is changing and the timing of the test creates a snap shot of a moving target. What does than mean? Issue with any form of test.
With injections, FT does not move fast so lab results are more indicative of reality.
So, how do you feel. E2 seems good. T levels look good. How you feel is really the bottom line, everything else is secondary if you feel good.
Watch hematocrit. High BP, head aches, muscle aches? If labs indicate that your T dose should be higher, you really cannot go there. If you donate blood and suddenly feel better, guess what that means.
SHBG is lowish; good. So TT does not need to be high. FT and bio-T is the bottom line.
