Clomid Only?

Pharma
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[quote]MichaelOH wrote:
KSman wrote:
thmgoodw wrote:
I’m a 31yo male and during my last physical my internal medicine Dr. ran a full blood panel, and came back with a testosterone level of 343.

She acknowledged that that wasn’t officially low, but told me nonetheless to go and see a urologist who might want to put me on something. The urogologist prescripted by 25mg Clomid ED, and then he wants me to come back in to access if that needs to be bumped up to 50mg.

I went to the pharmacy, who told me that my local Blue Cross carrier would not cover this for me, as it didn’t allow Clomid to be prescribed to men. The generic cost for a 30x50mg at the pharmacy was $259. The brand name was something like $750 for a month. Absolutey insane.

Anyways, after some venting, I decided to order it from a Canadian pharmacy, at $44 for the same 30x50mg. I will go back in 6 weeks or so for a retest of the testosterone levels and will let you know what, if any, change there is.

http://chemoneresearch.com/products.php?cat=OA

http://chemoneresearch.com/products.php?cat=MQ

Some guys get emotional on Clomid.

Tamoxifen is an alternative with less sides.

SERMs raise E and E competes for the T receptors and lessens the effects of what T you have. E raises SHBG which reduces free T. Use 1mg of anastrozole per week to keep E under control.

I went to the pubmed article to see what effect SERM therapy had on E levels. They did not report it in the brief abstract. I calculated it from the data that they did provide and there is some ambiguity becuase their own numbers do not match up.

Nevertheless what I got was that Estradiol increased by around 10, from 32 to 42. I think the next step would be to take KSMans advice and do it again with an AI.

Can anyone post any links to studies of SERM safety in men long term?

[/quote]

There is an article on Mesomorphosis.com written by an Eric Potratz who claims taking SERMS is very hazardous to your health. He then goes on to write about the wonders of resveratrol (which is the ingredient in REZ-V) and how it is better.

What complete hogwash I say. Why? Mr. Potratz is in the supplement business himself and what does he sell? A resveratrol supplement.

Everyone will react to different chemicals differently. WAY too often, we read facts and figures that apply to the “normal” person; well many of us are NOT normal and may lie on the extreme areas of the bell curve. You don’t know until you try things.

So, in the case of long term SERM use, you gotta try it for yourself. And that means using Clomid sometimes or Novaldex others. Those who indicate one is WAY better than the other may be speaking true for themselves, but it may not be best for YOU. I personally like Clomid better than Novaldex…but again, that is MY preference, and my preference really shouldn’t influence anyone to think this is the truth for all.

You’ve written about your E levels going up by 10…well what about your T levels? Did they go up too? If so, then perhaps there is more substrate to be converted to E. In that case, most definitely the AI could help.

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[quote]KSman wrote:
MichaelOH wrote:
Is anyone able to explain how clomid raises Test?

If the testes are working and if the rest of the HPTA is still working more or less, clomid “blinds” the HPTA to the presence of E. As E is a major negative feedback signal that inhibits LH release, when the E cannot be seen, the pituitary releases more LH, which also leads to more T. As there is aromatase in the testes as well as in fat tissue, the testes then also directly release more E. Even though the testes are small, the intratesticular testosterone concentrations are about 100 times higher than in serum. So that high concentration of T fuels T–>E aromatization to a greater degree than one might expect. That also explains why HCG leads to more E as well. And the general serum increase in T leads to more T–>E conversion in fat tissue. So the bottom line is that a SERM does not lower E, but actually leads to higher levels of E. That is why one must taper off of SERMs as the HPTA will see a lot of E if the SERM is stopped suddenly.

All SERMs will work in this fashion. But they have different side effects and different sexual side effects too. Many claim to have better sex with clomid. Presumably not the guys who have clomid getting them crying from the estrogenic sides that some get. SERMs are modified estrogens and will have some E effects on some.[/quote]

OK, I didn’t see this post before I posted my last rant about this. Sorry KSMan…nothing personal.

To recap: I have done an extensive Clomid-only cycle in the past and had regular bloodwork done. What happened what my T went up to the limits of high T…but after several weeks, the E began to climb as well (as KSMan points out in his post). I added arimidex to the clomid, and lo and behold, the T was still up but the E went down to middle of normal range.

1 Like
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[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:
For those who testes are fine but whose hypothalamus/pituitary doesn’t work like it should, clomid or novaldex (which are SERMS) helps tremendously.
[/quote]

The key point is that the hypothalamus/pituitary must still be viable and the testes as well. Yes this should work well for many who tolerate the SERM. But if the hypothalamus/pituitary is fried a SERM will do nothing and the only practical way to make the testes, if they are LH responsive, is to use HCG.

We seem to have beat up this subject quite well. I like the positive personal use report that adds reality to all of this theory.

The cost of SERMs is a concern when the dose is needed every day. Even with liquids, the cost would seem to exceed the costs of 100mg/wk TRT with a T ester. What other issues are there other than legal and schedule III drug listing? The sexual effects for some on Clomid does sound interesting too.

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[quote]KSman wrote:
buffd_samurai wrote:
For those who testes are fine but whose hypothalamus/pituitary doesn’t work like it should, clomid or novaldex (which are SERMS) helps tremendously.

The key point is that the hypothalamus/pituitary must still be viable and the testes as well. Yes this should work well for many who tolerate the SERM. But if the hypothalamus/pituitary is fried a SERM will do nothing and the only practical way to make the testes, if they are LH responsive, is to use HCG.
[/quote]

I’m in full agreement KSman.

[quote]

We seem to have beat up this subject quite well. I like the positive personal use report that adds reality to all of this theory.

The cost of SERMs is a concern when the dose is needed every day. Even with liquids, the cost would seem to exceed the costs of 100mg/wk TRT with a T ester. What other issues are there other than legal and schedule III drug listing? The sexual effects for some on Clomid does sound interesting too. [/quote]

I always enjoy these intelligent “fencing” with you. It’s funny, I think we are both pretty much on the same page on all of this.

25

[quote]KSman wrote:
What other issues are there other than legal and schedule III drug listing? The sexual effects for some on Clomid does sound interesting too. [/quote]

The most important issue of all, after basic efficacy has been established. Safety. There are 2 issues: 1)what are the longterm sides for men on SERMS, and 2) if I understand the biology using SERMS results in NO SHUTDOWN!

That is the 800 lb gorilla isnt it? One can acheive Test restoration without all the sides from suppressing one facet or another of the HPTA. Thats huge! What am I missing here?

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Did for me. Prescribed by a fertility/urologist. I been on 50 mg EOD for the last 2 years because my T was sub par 300 ish from my 15 hour work-out weeks (endurance athlete). Wife and I are trying to have kids…T was not an option right now. My levels went to arnd 700-900. For the most part I feel much better. Some blur vision…but rarely.