Clen/Epistane or Sustanon 250

Pharma / TRT
1

Hey guys, I could use some help. I’ve been workin out for the past few years but recently (3-4 months) started hittin the gym and diet pretty hard. I’m currently +/- 185 at 14% bodyfat, I haven’t been about to get any gains since April, with e to my calves, +1.5in. I’m sure some if this was due to my diet, high pro low carb.

I came off the diet 2 weeks ago and am maintaining my weight and bodyfat. Any ideas on what I should do to give me a boost? I wanna drop below 10% bf and put on some mass.

It’s a flip between a Clen/Epistane or Sustanon 250 stack.

I’m open to everything this is just a stack I was throwin around with my friend, any ideas??

Thanks

2

I’ll start off by saying that the majority of people will probably say that you can get below 10% without drugs.
Why did you come off of the diet if you still want to lose fat?

I have run test in the past and am currently running epi/havoc. I have no experience with clen. Epi doesn’t come close to test at all. I’ve determined that Epi is good for body recomposition and may be strong enough to preserve muscle mass while using clen + restricted calories.
Maybe try HOT-ROX?? Just throwing that out there. I’m sure others will have more to say.
Elaborate on your current nutritional habits

3

Ok, well I came off the diet because I have lost alot of my strength in the past 2 months, and I went from 18in arms to 16in arms. I understand that most of that might have been fat but I was curlin 55’s x10 but I’m at 45’s x8, my dumbbell bench was 110’s x8 now I’m lucky if I can get 95’s x7-8. I’m guessin this is normal since I was on a strict high pro diet. eating 185g pro less then 50 carbs and only about 1300-1500 cal intake.

Since I am workin 48hrs a wk 12hr shifts and I have school mon-fri from 8am to 12p I can only get in the gym 4 nights a week. Sun,wed,thurs,sat. I spend about 2-3hrs per night. 30-60min cardio the rest weights. I do about 3 body parts per night in addition to abs sun & wed and calves thurs & sat.

I am on a new diet: BMR = 66 + (13.7 * lbs in kg) + (5 * height in cm) �?? (6.8 * age) Note:lbs. / 2.2 = kg & in. * 2.54 = cm

So, using that equation I am currently eating about: 1960cals.

Then I used
lbs �?? (lbs * body fat %) = total lean mass
total lean mass * 1.14 = total grams of pro
total pro / 6 = total grams of pro per meal.

My pro intake is 187g per/day; I minus 30 from that and get 157g of carbs + 30g of high fiber carbs.

I keep my fat intake as low as I can.

I have been on this diet for about 2 weeks, I cheat about 1 meal every other day. but I still stay within my limits that are set above.

Anything I should change??

4

You’ve only been back hard at it for 3-4 months. Come back in another 6 months to a year and worry about adding in other stuff then.

You should definatley change your fat intake. Good fats are your friend.

Sounds like you should buy a book or two on nutrition instead of worrying about spending your money on any type of AAS.

Just imho of course.

5

My bad I take 2 tablespoons of olive oil in my oatmeal in the mornings.

6

I also get my Omega 3 from my fish oil supps. Why do you say that?? I’m currently in school getting my nutritionist degree, what do you see wrong with the diet??

Monounsaturated and Monounsaturated fats are good for you, of course. But, if you get more then 5-15g of your daily intake from fats don’t plan on losing any of it.

7

Id say the vast majority of people on this site currently cut with more fats than a couple tablespoons full of olive oil and possibly a handfull of fish oil caps.

Im currently leaning down and consuming around 6-8 tablespoons of olive oil per day and 8-10 fish oil caps along with some fats from other sources.

The extremely low fat diets just do not work near as effectively as ones with a morderate fat intake.

8

That’s true, your right. I misstated my last post. From what I have read and been told your fat intake sould only be 15-25% of your daily cal intake.

Check out that site to see what you should be getting. It you are eating less cals then what it says remember to cut out somed of the fat too.

http://www.healthcentral.com/cholesterol/dailyfat-3432-143.html

or

Convert the fat as follows:
15% of 1960 = 294 fat calories.
There are 9 calories in one gram of fat.
294 divided by 9 = 32.7grams of fat.
Round up, 33 is the maximum number of fat grams that you should eat per day. Only 20 grams or less should be in saturated or hydrogenated fats.

As for my 2 tablespoons that’s 28g of fat plus about 5g from the fish oils. that’s 33g, that’s 15% of my daily cals.

I’m not saying I’m right, I’m just saying that’s what I’ve been taught.

9

lillguy… there are a few things to consider.

For starters, the higher fat diets arent good because they are higher fat - but low carb…

Some people like myself, respond amazingly well to low fat over low carb diets (done both) while some do the opposite - usually the bigger, fatter people do very well on low carb and vice-versa… this is due to insulin resistance - i am sure you know all of this.

It is incorrect to say that low fat isnt as good as moderate fat… that is simply wrong, as with the majority of things - different things for different people… as for getting down to 5%BF this is still true… i have read the final diets of a good number of competitive BB’s, and while some are on a 40:20:30, some are on a 50:10:40 and some are even on a 40:40:20 or 50:40:10 (Pro:Cho:Fat)
I would guess that the more ecto bodytypes tend to go low fat, mod carb and high protein.

OP - you say that if you get more than 5-15g of fat in your diet a day, then you wont lose any? please expand on this very hard to believe claim?

JJ

10

[quote] JJ wrote:
lillguy… there are a few things to consider.

For starters, the higher fat diets arent good because they are higher fat - but low carb…

Some people like myself, respond amazingly well to low fat over low carb diets (done both) while some do the opposite - usually the bigger, fatter people do very well on low carb and vice-versa… this is due to insulin resistance - i am sure you know all of this.

It is incorrect to say that low fat isnt as good as moderate fat… that is simply wrong, as with the majority of things - different things for different people… as for getting down to 5%BF this is still true… i have read the final diets of a good number of competitive BB’s, and while some are on a 40:20:30, some are on a 50:10:40 and some are even on a 40:40:20 or 50:40:10 (Pro:Cho:Fat)
I would guess that the more ecto bodytypes tend to go low fat, mod carb and high protein.

OP - you say that if you get more than 5-15g of fat in your diet a day, then you wont lose any? please expand on this very hard to believe claim?

JJ[/quote]

I’m gonna jump in here because I’m trying to lose bf right now. I’m struggling with it and have only lost 4% to get me down to 20% (still really sucks). I did it with a diet that was roughly 50% pro, 30% fat and 20% carb, and a 3 week clen cycle (which failed about halfway through).

I’ve tried restricting my carbs since I stopped the clen but I’m actually starting to gain weight again. So would you advise i try lowering my fats instead?

(I think all of my receptors got clogged up on the clen because I took the dose to 120mg in week 2. I’m going to try a lower dose cycled on and off weekly combined with a T4 cycle in about 2 weeks)

11

Well… I cant help with the T3 or clen as i have little experience with clen and none of the other. But diet wise…

In your case, i would need to see that the fats are very healthy fats, mono and poly, and little saturated. If your calories are too low, you wont lose weight. If you are eating simple carbs as your carbs sources, it will stop you losing fat (insulin)…

Clen raises the body temperature, a true thermogenic i believe, which raises the metabolism in order to produce the heat. You may have fucked up the cycle, but it was still in your system. I dont know how long clen takes to kick in but i feel sides virtually immediately… so immediately i guess.

When you stopped the clen, the body will have less heat to produce, so the metabolism slows - meaning you need less calories. If you are eating the same amount, you will begin to increase weight or maintain at best.

I dont know if you are gaining fat, or muscle or water or a combo.

I dont know what your training looks like or what you dietary habits are…

So to summarise i need to know your weight, BF% (as accurate as possible please!), height, goal, weghts and cardio session you do, your diet, not what it is supposed to be, but what it really is… (calories, protein, fat and carbs - alcohol and supplements and drugs recently used, to use or using)… um… feel like i forgot something…

If you like, i am happy to go over all this via PM (to avoid being TOTALLY off topic) if you provide me with the details above… ya?

JJ

12

[quote] JJ wrote:
Well… I cant help with the T3 or clen as i have little experience with clen and none of the other. But diet wise…

In your case, i would need to see that the fats are very healthy fats, mono and poly, and little saturated. If your calories are too low, you wont lose weight. If you are eating simple carbs as your carbs sources, it will stop you losing fat (insulin)…

Clen raises the body temperature, a true thermogenic i believe, which raises the metabolism in order to produce the heat. You may have fucked up the cycle, but it was still in your system. I dont know how long clen takes to kick in but i feel sides virtually immediately… so immediately i guess.

When you stopped the clen, the body will have less heat to produce, so the metabolism slows - meaning you need less calories. If you are eating the same amount, you will begin to increase weight or maintain at best.

I dont know if you are gaining fat, or muscle or water or a combo.

I dont know what your training looks like or what you dietary habits are…

So to summarise i need to know your weight, BF% (as accurate as possible please!), height, goal, weghts and cardio session you do, your diet, not what it is supposed to be, but what it really is… (calories, protein, fat and carbs - alcohol and supplements and drugs recently used, to use or using)… um… feel like i forgot something…

If you like, i am happy to go over all this via PM (to avoid being TOTALLY off topic) if you provide me with the details above… ya?

JJ[/quote]

Thanks, I sent you a full workup, as accurate as possible.

13

My bad JJ, I got myself all jumbled up. From what my professors are teaching, 15-25% of your diet should be good fats and the 5-15g was for Saturated Fats & Trans Fats. Keep in mind that these guys are not weightlifters/bodybuilders they’re nutritionists.

All I know is I was eating nothing but 4-5 cans of tuna and 2 protein shakes a day, getting less then 50g of carbs and 30g of fats. I went from 205lbs 19.5%bf to 184lbs 14%bf. I started the diet 4/17/08 and stopped 6/6/08.

The diet sucked and I’m glad I’m off it, my doctor was a bodybuilder back in the late 80’s, early 90’s and he put me on that.

What I am on now is something we came up with at school and it allows me to eat pretty much whatever I want, only bad thing is until I get the hang of it I’m stuck cal counting.

I’m getting off topic, what I am trying to say is that I lost about 25lbs of fat my knocking my fat intake down to 15% of my daily intake. Like you said, Everyone responds differently, it just worked for me.

14

I may have jumped the gun a bit there. From my past experience and from diets ive put others on they seem to need more essential fats than not. A high protein, moderate fat, low carb works best for most, and yes not all.

It just seems that ive met way too many people that try the extreme low fat diets and get sub par results. I guess thats why im so strongly against them.

Nutrition as a whole and nutrition for a bodybuilder/athlete can be completely different things as there are obviously different needs by the body.

The diet your on now that you can eat what you want and are counting calories is pretty much the same as a weight watchers diet. With your physique goals in mind I dont think you will find that is the right one for you.

Jersey: How tall are you and what is your current weight/bf% estimate currently?

How much cardio and what type do you currently incorporate into your training?

15

I’m 5’10", yesterday I was 186lbs at 14.1%bf, that’s with using a hand-held bioelectrical scale.

I do 30mins of cardio 4 times a week at the gym before my weight training. I jump on the treadmill twice a week, going between a max incline walking at 17min miles and jogging at a 6:20min mile, I switch every 5 mins. The other two days I’ll do the elliptical at mid to high range at a random setting.

I’m about to add outside cycling to my workout 3-4 times a week.

I started reading this new book titled “Bodybuilding for Beginners”, It starts on a 3 day a week workout plan. I donno if it’ll work but I’m sure it will not hurt to switch it up a bit.

I figured I’ll give that a shot along with the extra cardio before I step up to the next level.

What do ya think?

16

Try moving your cardio to after your weightlifting. That way you exhaust your liver’s carb reserve stores before starting cardio. Then you’re burning fat.

If you haven’t exhausted your livers stores then you’re fueling yourself off them. You will burn fat, but not as much.

17

[quote]MightyMaus wrote:
Try moving your cardio to after your weightlifting. That way you exhaust your liver’s carb reserve stores before starting cardio. Then you’re burning fat.

If you haven’t exhausted your livers stores then you’re fueling yourself off them. You will burn fat, but not as much.
[/quote]

uh… the liver doesnt fuel the muscles… the muscle glycogen fuels the muscles. Your point is valid, but the liver isnt holding much energy, and if anything it would be the brain that the liver would supply (i think i remember that being the case… prepared to be corrected though!)

JJ$

18

After my workout i take a simple carbs + protein shake… Which causes an insulin spike, thus putting me into an anabolic mode… its nearly impossible to burn fat with your insulin levels that high.

Needless to say i doubt id have the energy to run after lifting. Now on the other hand your muscles produce toxins while exerting them correct? so wouldnt it be smart to run after lifting to kinda sorta flush them out of your body? regardless i still hate cardio

19

I was doing my cardio after lifting until about a week ago. I learned that some of the bodybuilders said that doing cardio after lifting allows the cortisol to remain in your system longer. Cortisol increases post resistance training.

Game_over obviously knows his shit in that the higher the GI Index the faster your insulin spikes which interfears with the cortisol production. There are also other supps to take to help minimize cortisol production, I take 1,000mg of vit c after lifting.

Checkout this site, it gives a breakdown.
thinkmuscle.com/ARTICLES/jalali/cortisol.htm

If that artical I seen was incorrect please let me know so I can better adjust my workouts.

20

[quote]Game_over wrote:
After my workout i take a simple carbs + protein shake… Which causes an insulin spike, thus putting me into an anabolic mode… its nearly impossible to burn fat with your insulin levels that high.

Needless to say i doubt id have the energy to run after lifting. Now on the other hand your muscles produce toxins while exerting them correct? so wouldnt it be smart to run after lifting to kinda sorta flush them out of your body? regardless i still hate cardio[/quote]

Well you are right, that it is impossible to burn fat with the presence of insulin there so you’d have to run first…

As for the toxins, all i can think of is lactic acid which does dissipate with oxygen - so a run would be good (as is stretching/cool down) - if you genuinely dont have the energy, walk to burn the fat and schedule your CV sessions on other days or before your weights maybe?

J