[quote]forlife wrote:
legendaryblaze wrote:
the few gay people i have met and spoken to told me it was a choice. I think you are just trying to validate your choice.
That’s interesting, since I’ve talked with hundreds of gay people and not a single one has ever said that their sexual orientation was a choice. The medical, mental health, and educational institutions all agree.
You’re probably making the same mistake most people do who don’t know what they’re talking about, by confusing sexual orientation with sexual behavior.
You can choose whether or not to have sex. You can’t choose who you actually find attractive.
Sex education 101.[/quote]
That’s a good point. I might be confusing sexual orientation with sexual behavior.
However i do not know if you can blame it entirely on genetics.
Like i gave with the example of alcoholism. I believe it has to do with your environment aswell.
Three genetically identical triplets are raised differently. One is raised by hitler, one by a catholic priest and one is raised by the dalai lama.
The child raised by hitler will hate jews, black, homosexuals, the mentally and physically disabled.
The one raised by the catholic priest will be a homosexual and a pedophile (harhar).
The one raised by the dalai lama will be peaceful and humble.
Do you disagree with this? Despite their genetic similarities, wouldn’t the different environments cause their brain to adapt to different stimulus (mental) and be molded in such a way as to work with what they’ve been taught?
Sure, there might be a gay gene but to say it’s the end all be all of whether one is really gay or not is ridiculous.
Environment, upbringing AND genetics are the deciding factors of whether a person becomes gay or not.
Maybe you have spoken to hundreds of gay people who have said they were like that since birth.
However that does not discredit the fact that the (few) gay people i spoke to told me it was a choice.
I do believe there are gay genes but i think it plays less of a role than people say it does. It’s not like “bam! i have the gay gene or gay genes, so i will definitely be gay”.
Biology is too complicated to be simplified to such an extent.
In any case, i have looked everywhere on the internet and i have yet to see proof that there is a gay gene. Either it was pro-gay article on a gay website or anti-gay on some christian or anti-gay website.
This is the only article i’ve read that makes the most sense and isn’t biased:
I’ve consistently said that sexual orientation is probably a result of BOTH genetics and environment. The twin studies are a good example of that. If sexual orienation was ENTIRELY due to genetics, you would expect 100% concordance in sexual orientation between identical twins. However, if sexual orientation was ONLY due to environment, you would expect 0% concordance in sexual orientation between identical twins. As it turns out, identical twins are significantly more likely to both be gay compared to fraternal twins, who in turn are significantly more likely to both be gay compared to other siblings.
As with most other human characteristics, genetics AND environment interact to determine a person’s sexual orientation.
Another common misconception is that environment = choice or that environment = reversibility. Neither of those is true in the case of sexual orientation, or most other human characteristics. That there is an environmental factor in determining sexual orientation doesn’t mean sexual orientation is a choice, or that it can be changed.
The medical, mental health, and educational institutions have determined, based on 40 years of research, that sexual orientation is NOT a choice, it is NOT reversible, and attempting to change your orientation can be damaging.
None of which has anything to do with sexual behavior, which obviously IS a choice. I was married to a woman for 9 years, but that didn’t make me any less attracted to men.
[quote]forlife wrote:
I’ve consistently said that sexual orientation is probably a result of BOTH genetics and environment. The twin studies are a good example of that. If sexual orienation was ENTIRELY due to genetics, you would expect 100% concordance in sexual orientation between identical twins. However, if sexual orientation was ONLY due to environment, you would expect 0% concordance in sexual orientation between identical twins. As it turns out, identical twins are significantly more likely to both be gay compared to fraternal twins, who in turn are significantly more likely to both be gay compared to other siblings.
As with most other human characteristics, genetics AND environment interact to determine a person’s sexual orientation.
Another common misconception is that environment = choice or that environment = reversibility. Neither of those is true in the case of sexual orientation, or most other human characteristics. That there is an environmental factor in determining sexual orientation doesn’t mean sexual orientation is a choice, or that it can be changed.
The medical, mental health, and educational institutions have determined, based on 40 years of research, that sexual orientation is NOT a choice, it is NOT reversible, and attempting to change your orientation can be damaging.
None of which has anything to do with sexual behavior, which obviously IS a choice. I was married to a woman for 9 years, but that didn’t make me any less attracted to men.[/quote]
[quote]forlife wrote:
I’ve consistently said that sexual orientation is probably a result of BOTH genetics and environment. The twin studies are a good example of that. If sexual orienation was ENTIRELY due to genetics, you would expect 100% concordance in sexual orientation between identical twins. However, if sexual orientation was ONLY due to environment, you would expect 0% concordance in sexual orientation between identical twins. As it turns out, identical twins are significantly more likely to both be gay compared to fraternal twins, who in turn are significantly more likely to both be gay compared to other siblings.
As with most other human characteristics, genetics AND environment interact to determine a person’s sexual orientation.
Another common misconception is that environment = choice or that environment = reversibility. Neither of those is true in the case of sexual orientation, or most other human characteristics. That there is an environmental factor in determining sexual orientation doesn’t mean sexual orientation is a choice, or that it can be changed.
The medical, mental health, and educational institutions have determined, based on 40 years of research, that sexual orientation is NOT a choice, it is NOT reversible, and attempting to change your orientation can be damaging.
None of which has anything to do with sexual behavior, which obviously IS a choice. I was married to a woman for 9 years, but that didn’t make me any less attracted to men.[/quote]
Would you say your relationship with a man is different than that of a woman?
[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
Would you say your relationship with a man is different than that of a woman?
Yes. I am able to relate to my partner on all levels, which was impossible with a woman, much as I would have liked it to be otherwise.[/quote]
Case in point, men have no ability to make another man as miserable as a woman can make a man. Only an WOMAN can chew you up and shit you out, broke, naked and homeless.
Men are the weaker sex and cannot do that. The best we can do is be abusive, which is barbaric and mindless. Women are faaaar more sophisticated.
So men on men relationships are different the men on women relationship. So why should a gay relationship get the benefits of a hetro relationship when it lacks some to the elements of that relationship?..In other words, it’s not the same…
[quote]pat wrote:
Case in point, men have no ability to make another man as miserable as a woman can make a man. Only an WOMAN can chew you up and shit you out, broke, naked and homeless.
Men are the weaker sex and cannot do that. The best we can do is be abusive, which is barbaric and mindless. Women are faaaar more sophisticated.
So men on men relationships are different the men on women relationship. So why should a gay relationship get the benefits of a hetro relationship when it lacks some to the elements of that relationship?..In other words, it’s not the same…[/quote]
I don’t think anyone was arguing that same sex relationships are the same as heterosexual relationships.
The point of my answer to your question is that it was impossible for me to have true intimacy at all levels with a woman, due to my sexual orientation. For me, that kind of intimacy is only possible with another man. For you, that kind of intimacy is only possible with a woman.
We’re both entitled to true intimacy, happiness, and purpose in our relationships.
Another common misconception is that environment = choice or that environment = reversibility. Neither of those is true[/quote]
Are you going to tell those former male homosexuals that have undergone reparative therapy and are now happily married, to women, that they’re still gay?
We understand that you tried and failed, plenty have. The point is a sizeable number have indeed succeeded. What you’re doing is simply discouraging anyone who currently has a same sex attraction from seeking therapy. Why? Because YOU tried and failed so therefore you think no one can succeed.
"Despite such a spirited defence, comments by the leaders of EU governing body indicated that there was to be no tolerance for ideas which would view homosexual acts as unnatural. European commissioner for equal opportunity, Vladimir Spidla, said of the proposed Polish educational legislation banning promotion of homosexuality: “Such a law, if it were to emerge, would be in contradiction with the European human rights convention and the EU charter on fundamental rights.”
In the resolution passed today, MEPs urge the Polish authorities “to refrain from proposing or adopting a law as described by the Vice Prime Minister and Polish Minister of education”. They demand a fact-finding mission into Poland regarding ‘homophobia’, and threaten court action on Poland or any other member nation unwilling to submit to EU rights conventions which they have interpreted to disallow a government from forbidding homosexual promotion in schools.
In Warsaw, Polish Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski commented on the EP resolution saying: “Nobody is limiting gay rights in Poland. However, if we’re talking about not having homosexual propaganda in Polish schools, I fully agree with those who feel this way - such propaganda should not be in schools; it definitely doesn’t serve youth well.”
After all those crushing years under the Soviets, they still have the character to fight the powers that hate humanity – one world, one government, one sex.
[quote]pat wrote:
forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
Would you say your relationship with a man is different than that of a woman?
Yes. I am able to relate to my partner on all levels, which was impossible with a woman, much as I would have liked it to be otherwise.
Case in point, men have no ability to make another man as miserable as a woman can make a man. Only an WOMAN can chew you up and shit you out, broke, naked and homeless.
Men are the weaker sex and cannot do that. The best we can do is be abusive, which is barbaric and mindless. Women are faaaar more sophisticated.
So men on men relationships are different the men on women relationship. So why should a gay relationship get the benefits of a hetro relationship when it lacks some to the elements of that relationship?..In other words, it’s not the same…[/quote]
[quote]forlife wrote:
I’ve consistently said that sexual orientation is probably a result of BOTH genetics and environment. The twin studies are a good example of that. If sexual orienation was ENTIRELY due to genetics, you would expect 100% concordance in sexual orientation between identical twins. However, if sexual orientation was ONLY due to environment, you would expect 0% concordance in sexual orientation between identical twins. As it turns out, identical twins are significantly more likely to both be gay compared to fraternal twins, who in turn are significantly more likely to both be gay compared to other siblings.
As with most other human characteristics, genetics AND environment interact to determine a person’s sexual orientation.
Another common misconception is that environment = choice or that environment = reversibility. Neither of those is true in the case of sexual orientation, or most other human characteristics. That there is an environmental factor in determining sexual orientation doesn’t mean sexual orientation is a choice, or that it can be changed.
The medical, mental health, and educational institutions have determined, based on 40 years of research, that sexual orientation is NOT a choice, it is NOT reversible, and attempting to change your orientation can be damaging.
None of which has anything to do with sexual behavior, which obviously IS a choice. I was married to a woman for 9 years, but that didn’t make me any less attracted to men.[/quote]
If you were attracted to men, why did you marry a woman? Did you investigate this attraction to men before you got married? Or did this attraction to men happen during the course of your marriage?
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
If you were attracted to men, why did you marry a woman? Did you investigate this attraction to men before you got married? Or did this attraction to men happen during the course of your marriage?[/quote]
Like I posted earlier, I’ve always been gay and told my wife that I was gay before I proposed to her. Our church leaders told us to get married anyway, so we did. At the time, we believed god would “heal” my “same sex attraction”. Nine years later, we realized that wasn’t going to happen, and that we would be better off as friends than as husband and wife.
I no longer believe there is anything to be “healed”, and am far happier living true to who I am than I was after repressing my natural orientation all those years.
I just wanted to say to the gay haters on this site a few things.
At least 15% of the population is gay. Fact. Despite what you may have heard, this is the percentage of people that identify as being interested in the same sex. Because many choose to repress their own sexuality the number may be much larger.
Homosexuals will alway exist. They always have, and as long as mankind is here, they will be here as a part of the human network. You cannot make them go away.
With those facts in mind, there are two distinctive ways you can deal with the issue of homosexuality. You can understand that despite who they have sex with they still retain all the rights of a human being. You can understand it is without question immoral and inhuman to deny a person the right to seek and feel loved by another intimately. You can understand that this issue goes far beyond matters of the transmission of sexually transmitted disease, the ability to reproduce, or whatever those with hearts laden with hatred can say. I understand that knowing these things is a better way to live, and I’m sorry that so many can’t see it that way.
Or you can succumb to your prejudices, treat everyone different from yourself with content, deny them liberties, belittle them with scorn and hatred, and destroy any good within yourself in the process.
Question: Why when someone opposes gay rights do they always have to be filled with hate? What one person may feel is morally right another may feel is morally wrong and another may feel morally neutral.
[quote]Schlenkatank wrote:
I just wanted to say to the gay haters on this site a few things.
At least 15% of the population is gay. Fact. Despite what you may have heard, this is the percentage of people that identify as being interested in the same sex. Because many choose to repress their own sexuality the number may be much larger.
Homosexuals will alway exist. They always have, and as long as mankind is here, they will be here as a part of the human network. You cannot make them go away.
With those facts in mind, there are two distinctive ways you can deal with the issue of homosexuality. You can understand that despite who they have sex with they still retain all the rights of a human being. You can understand it is without question immoral and inhuman to deny a person the right to seek and feel loved by another intimately. You can understand that this issue goes far beyond matters of the transmission of sexually transmitted disease, the ability to reproduce, or whatever those with hearts laden with hatred can say. I understand that knowing these things is a better way to live, and I’m sorry that so many can’t see it that way.
Or you can succumb to your prejudices, treat everyone different from yourself with content, deny them liberties, belittle them with scorn and hatred, and destroy any good within yourself in the process.[/quote]
Assuming your numbers are accurate, there is nothing to “deal” with. If I took 15% of the people I encounter on a daily basis to be gay, that is such a small number that I would not go out of my way to “deal” with anything. However, if I lived in Miami or Palm Springs, I would have to rethink that.
[quote]clip11 wrote:
Question: Why when someone opposes gay rights do they always have to be filled with hate? What one person may feel is morally right another may feel is morally wrong and another may feel morally neutral.[/quote]
Because you take your moral from Jewish fairy tales, which were stolen anyway.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Schlenkatank wrote:
I just wanted to say to the gay haters on this site a few things.
At least 15% of the population is gay. Fact. Despite what you may have heard, this is the percentage of people that identify as being interested in the same sex. Because many choose to repress their own sexuality the number may be much larger.
Homosexuals will alway exist. They always have, and as long as mankind is here, they will be here as a part of the human network. You cannot make them go away.
With those facts in mind, there are two distinctive ways you can deal with the issue of homosexuality. You can understand that despite who they have sex with they still retain all the rights of a human being. You can understand it is without question immoral and inhuman to deny a person the right to seek and feel loved by another intimately. You can understand that this issue goes far beyond matters of the transmission of sexually transmitted disease, the ability to reproduce, or whatever those with hearts laden with hatred can say. I understand that knowing these things is a better way to live, and I’m sorry that so many can’t see it that way.
Or you can succumb to your prejudices, treat everyone different from yourself with content, deny them liberties, belittle them with scorn and hatred, and destroy any good within yourself in the process.
Assuming your numbers are accurate, there is nothing to “deal” with. If I took 15% of the people I encounter on a daily basis to be gay, that is such a small number that I would not go out of my way to “deal” with anything. However, if I lived in Miami or Palm Springs, I would have to rethink that.[/quote]
The numbers are what reflects the population that identifies themselves as “gay”. Again, there are so many in between people as well as people with repressed sexuality like the former evangelical church leader that the number is realistically much larger.
In your statement I believe you mentioned the possible third route which is noninvolvement. That is perfectly acceptable because although it may not help other people you certainly aren’t harming anyone. Taking a step back from the issue is a at least a peaceful stance, although I would challenge you to think to yourself why a gay person deserves the same rights and respect as any other member of society.
But i would disagree on 15% being a small number. If you only see 13 people in one day, you will have met 2 gay people. Maybe one of those people has trouble freely expressing themselves. Therefore, it is a big social issue.
[quote]clip11 wrote:
Question: Why when someone opposes gay rights do they always have to be filled with hate? What one person may feel is morally right another may feel is morally wrong and another may feel morally neutral.[/quote]
I don’t think you have to be hateful to oppose gay rights on a personal level. I met people at a wedding recently that actually treated gay people “extra nice” because they wanted to convert them. Kind of funny actually.
However, to actively oppose another persons entitlement to equality is a big step on the road of belittlement and hate. Everything a person can say to try and reduce the rights of gay people is pale in comparison to the immortal words in which our country is founded, “All men are created equal”.