Let me clarify that I’m against INFANT circumcision. I’ve studied the topics of evolutionary psychology/biology, anthropology, evolution (personally and as a species) pretty extensively. I believe there IS something in our genetic memory and “blueprint” that says a “wound” sustained during adolescence in the form of a ritual CAN help a boy transition more effectively into a man.
In some societies it was circumcision, in others it was knocking out a tooth, or scarification/tattoos. But THAT is not what I’m railing against. Cutting off the foreskin of an infant serves NO purpose and on a deep subconscious level, teaches that tiny, helpless little boy that the world is NOT a safe place and that mommy and daddy will hurt me.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
It honestly makes me lose hope for us as a species when I reflect on how humans can be so conditioned by society and religion to believe that female genital mutilation is wrong and horrific, but that male circumcision is perfectly fine. It simply makes NO sense at all to be able to LOGICALLY hold those two positions at the same time.
It boggles my little brain.
If in 2012 we can be conditioned to hold THIS diametrically opposite opinion, how can ANYONE believe we are a rational species?
Can someone LOGICALLY please explain to me why it is wrong, barbaric, misogynistic and cruel to practice female genital mutilation but to then turn around and not bat an eye at circumcision? “just leave it up to the parents”.
I mean, HOW can you POSSIBLY reconcile those two opinions?! It makes no fucking sense…
Cutting girls = BAD - they’ve been doing it for thousands of years, but it needs to STOP, it’s wrong! We’re more evolved than that!
Cutting boys = sure - they’ve been doing it for thousands of years, who are YOU to tell me not to cut my son’s dick?
What. The. Fuck?[/quote]
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Here are all the comparative studies of penile sensitivity and sexual satisfaction before and after circumcision:
Please read each one.
Only #3, a study among Chinese comparing finger and glans vibratory threshholds, suggested a statistically significant (and not clinically significant) difference after circumcision.
All the other studies show no difference in sexual satisfaction and measures of sensitivity after circumcision or among circumcised men compared to uncircumcised men.
2: Krieger JN, Mehta SD, Bailey RC, Agot K, Ndinya-Achola JO, Parker C, Moses S.
Adult male circumcision: effects on sexual function and sexual satisfaction in
Kisumu, Kenya. J Sex Med. 2008 Nov;5(11):2610-22. Epub 2008 Aug 28. PubMed PMID:
18761593; PubMed Central PMCID: PMC3042320.
3: Yang DM, Lin H, Zhang B, Guo W. [Circumcision affects glans penis vibration
perception threshold]. Zhonghua Nan Ke Xue. 2008 Apr;14(4):328-30. Chinese.
PubMed PMID: 18481425.
4: Payne K, Thaler L, Kukkonen T, Carrier S, Binik Y. Sensation and sexual
arousal in circumcised and uncircumcised men. J Sex Med. 2007 May;4(3):667-74.
Epub 2007 Apr 6. PubMed PMID: 17419812.
5: Richters J, Smith AM, de Visser RO, Grulich AE, Rissel CE. Circumcision in
Australia: prevalence and effects on sexual health. Int J STD AIDS. 2006
Aug;17(8):547-54. PubMed PMID: 16925903.
6: Masood S, Patel HR, Himpson RC, Palmer JH, Mufti GR, Sheriff MK. Penile
sensitivity and sexual satisfaction after circumcision: are we informing men
correctly? Urol Int. 2005;75(1):62-6. PubMed PMID: 16037710.
7: Fink KS, Carson CC, DeVellis RF. Adult circumcision outcomes study: effect on
erectile function, penile sensitivity, sexual activity and satisfaction. J Urol.
2002 May;167(5):2113-6. PubMed PMID: 11956453.
[/quote]
Now compare that to female genital mutilation. After all this time, circumcision leading to noticeably reduced sexual pleasure is, at most, inconclusive. Female genital mutilation removes major structures of the genitals. The clitoris, it’s hood, and the labia. From one of these, to all. With the removal of the labia, the legs are often bound together so that what remains will heal together, leaving nothing but a tiny hole for the passage of urine. The practice is almost always stemming from a desire to greatly dampen, if not completely remove, female libido and sexual pleasure. To ensure virginity (an almost completely closed vaginal orifice) and/or as a preventive measure against adultery (no sexual libido). We might as well be comparing the piercing of ears, to their complete removal.
How can you, as a Catholic, with your position of holding all life as sacred, believe that abortion is HORRIBLE because EVERY life deserves a chance to be born and thrive (a position that I happen to share with you, by the way - and not because GOD told me to) but then turn around and have the attitude that it’s perfectly OK to mutilate a child with out it’s consent?
If a child has the RIGHT to live, then certainly it has the RIGHT to control the sanctity of it’s body. To hold any other opinion is completely hypocritical!
Now I’m sure you’re gonna come back with, “well in Genesis verse blah blah blah it CLEARLY says that GOD want’s to cut the tips of all Jewish dicks.” The operative word being JEWISH. Last time I checked you’re not Jewish. I’m not Jewish. Out of the SEVEN BILLION people in the world, only 13 million of them are Jewish. So WHY ALL THIS DICK CUTTING?[/quote]
How can you pretend to give a damn about circumcision, outside of using it to mount an offense against a religious practice, while whining about how politicians should shut up about the outright killing of the same child while in the womb?
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
It honestly makes me lose hope for us as a species when I reflect on how humans can be so conditioned by society and religion to believe that female genital mutilation is wrong and horrific, but that male circumcision is perfectly fine. It simply makes NO sense at all to be able to LOGICALLY hold those two positions at the same time.
It boggles my little brain.
If in 2012 we can be conditioned to hold THIS diametrically opposite opinion, how can ANYONE believe we are a rational species?
Can someone LOGICALLY please explain to me why it is wrong, barbaric, misogynistic and cruel to practice female genital mutilation but to then turn around and not bat an eye at circumcision? “just leave it up to the parents”.
I mean, HOW can you POSSIBLY reconcile those two opinions?! It makes no fucking sense…
Cutting girls = BAD - they’ve been doing it for thousands of years, but it needs to STOP, it’s wrong! We’re more evolved than that!
Cutting boys = sure - they’ve been doing it for thousands of years, who are YOU to tell me not to cut my son’s dick?
What. The. Fuck?[/quote]
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Here are all the comparative studies of penile sensitivity and sexual satisfaction before and after circumcision:
Please read each one.
Only #3, a study among Chinese comparing finger and glans vibratory threshholds, suggested a statistically significant (and not clinically significant) difference after circumcision.
All the other studies show no difference in sexual satisfaction and measures of sensitivity after circumcision or among circumcised men compared to uncircumcised men.
2: Krieger JN, Mehta SD, Bailey RC, Agot K, Ndinya-Achola JO, Parker C, Moses S.
Adult male circumcision: effects on sexual function and sexual satisfaction in
Kisumu, Kenya. J Sex Med. 2008 Nov;5(11):2610-22. Epub 2008 Aug 28. PubMed PMID:
18761593; PubMed Central PMCID: PMC3042320.
3: Yang DM, Lin H, Zhang B, Guo W. [Circumcision affects glans penis vibration
perception threshold]. Zhonghua Nan Ke Xue. 2008 Apr;14(4):328-30. Chinese.
PubMed PMID: 18481425.
4: Payne K, Thaler L, Kukkonen T, Carrier S, Binik Y. Sensation and sexual
arousal in circumcised and uncircumcised men. J Sex Med. 2007 May;4(3):667-74.
Epub 2007 Apr 6. PubMed PMID: 17419812.
5: Richters J, Smith AM, de Visser RO, Grulich AE, Rissel CE. Circumcision in
Australia: prevalence and effects on sexual health. Int J STD AIDS. 2006
Aug;17(8):547-54. PubMed PMID: 16925903.
6: Masood S, Patel HR, Himpson RC, Palmer JH, Mufti GR, Sheriff MK. Penile
sensitivity and sexual satisfaction after circumcision: are we informing men
correctly? Urol Int. 2005;75(1):62-6. PubMed PMID: 16037710.
7: Fink KS, Carson CC, DeVellis RF. Adult circumcision outcomes study: effect on
erectile function, penile sensitivity, sexual activity and satisfaction. J Urol.
2002 May;167(5):2113-6. PubMed PMID: 11956453.
[/quote]
Now compare that to female genital mutilation. After all this time, circumcision leading to noticeably reduced sexual pleasure is, at most, inconclusive. Female genital mutilation removes major structures of the genitals. The clitoris, it’s hood, and the labia. From one of these, to all. With the removal of the labia, the legs are often bound together so that what remains will heal together, leaving nothing but a tiny hole for the passage of urine. The practice is almost always stemming from a desire to greatly dampen, if not completely remove, female libido and sexual pleasure. To ensure virginity (an almost completely closed vaginal orifice) and/or as a preventive measure against adultery (no sexual libido). We might as well be comparing the piercing of ears, to their complete removal.
[/quote]
It’s NOT piercing. A KNIFE is taken to a little boy’s DICK and healthy, sensitive tissue is PERMANENTLY removed without anesthetic. BIG difference. So I have no problems whatsoever comparing it to female genital mutilation.
And it just so happens that circumcision became popular among genteels because it was thought to discourage masturbation and avoid “masturbatory insanity”. And female circumcision was widely practiced in the US until the late 20’s.
There were LOTS of religiously influenced “scientific beliefs” that caused all kinds of sexual abuse in the last 250 years. Thankfully most of it has stopped and would now be considered criminal. But somehow circumcision manages to keep hanging on… We’ve come a long way since then. Do you still believe that masturbation is a sin that causes insanity?
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
It honestly makes me lose hope for us as a species when I reflect on how humans can be so conditioned by society and religion to believe that female genital mutilation is wrong and horrific, but that male circumcision is perfectly fine. It simply makes NO sense at all to be able to LOGICALLY hold those two positions at the same time.
It boggles my little brain.
If in 2012 we can be conditioned to hold THIS diametrically opposite opinion, how can ANYONE believe we are a rational species?
Can someone LOGICALLY please explain to me why it is wrong, barbaric, misogynistic and cruel to practice female genital mutilation but to then turn around and not bat an eye at circumcision? “just leave it up to the parents”.
I mean, HOW can you POSSIBLY reconcile those two opinions?! It makes no fucking sense…
Cutting girls = BAD - they’ve been doing it for thousands of years, but it needs to STOP, it’s wrong! We’re more evolved than that!
Cutting boys = sure - they’ve been doing it for thousands of years, who are YOU to tell me not to cut my son’s dick?
What. The. Fuck?[/quote]
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Here are all the comparative studies of penile sensitivity and sexual satisfaction before and after circumcision:
Please read each one.
Only #3, a study among Chinese comparing finger and glans vibratory threshholds, suggested a statistically significant (and not clinically significant) difference after circumcision.
All the other studies show no difference in sexual satisfaction and measures of sensitivity after circumcision or among circumcised men compared to uncircumcised men.
2: Krieger JN, Mehta SD, Bailey RC, Agot K, Ndinya-Achola JO, Parker C, Moses S.
Adult male circumcision: effects on sexual function and sexual satisfaction in
Kisumu, Kenya. J Sex Med. 2008 Nov;5(11):2610-22. Epub 2008 Aug 28. PubMed PMID:
18761593; PubMed Central PMCID: PMC3042320.
3: Yang DM, Lin H, Zhang B, Guo W. [Circumcision affects glans penis vibration
perception threshold]. Zhonghua Nan Ke Xue. 2008 Apr;14(4):328-30. Chinese.
PubMed PMID: 18481425.
4: Payne K, Thaler L, Kukkonen T, Carrier S, Binik Y. Sensation and sexual
arousal in circumcised and uncircumcised men. J Sex Med. 2007 May;4(3):667-74.
Epub 2007 Apr 6. PubMed PMID: 17419812.
5: Richters J, Smith AM, de Visser RO, Grulich AE, Rissel CE. Circumcision in
Australia: prevalence and effects on sexual health. Int J STD AIDS. 2006
Aug;17(8):547-54. PubMed PMID: 16925903.
6: Masood S, Patel HR, Himpson RC, Palmer JH, Mufti GR, Sheriff MK. Penile
sensitivity and sexual satisfaction after circumcision: are we informing men
correctly? Urol Int. 2005;75(1):62-6. PubMed PMID: 16037710.
7: Fink KS, Carson CC, DeVellis RF. Adult circumcision outcomes study: effect on
erectile function, penile sensitivity, sexual activity and satisfaction. J Urol.
2002 May;167(5):2113-6. PubMed PMID: 11956453.
[/quote]
Now compare that to female genital mutilation. After all this time, circumcision leading to noticeably reduced sexual pleasure is, at most, inconclusive. Female genital mutilation removes major structures of the genitals. The clitoris, it’s hood, and the labia. From one of these, to all. With the removal of the labia, the legs are often bound together so that what remains will heal together, leaving nothing but a tiny hole for the passage of urine. The practice is almost always stemming from a desire to greatly dampen, if not completely remove, female libido and sexual pleasure. To ensure virginity (an almost completely closed vaginal orifice) and/or as a preventive measure against adultery (no sexual libido). We might as well be comparing the piercing of ears, to their complete removal.
[/quote]
It’s NOT piercing. A KNIFE is taken to a little boy’s DICK and healthy, sensitive tissue is PERMANENTLY removed without anesthetic. BIG difference. So I have no problems whatsoever comparing it to female genital mutilation.
And it just so happens that circumcision became popular among genteels because it was thought to discourage masturbation and avoid “masturbatory insanity”. And female circumcision was widely practiced in the US until the late 20’s.
There were LOTS of religiously influenced “scientific beliefs” that caused all kinds of sexual abuse in the last 250 years. Thankfully most of it has stopped and would now be considered criminal. But somehow circumcision manages to keep hanging on… We’ve come a long way since then. Do you still believe that masturbation is a sin that causes insanity?
[/quote]
Have you yet looked at the above studies, and then compared this practice to actual female genital mutilation? Yes, you might as well be comparing ear piercing to ear removal. And once again, stop trying to take the high road, if you’re not adamantly pro-life. Circumcision vs death? Not even debatable.
How can you, as a Catholic, with your position of holding all life as sacred, believe that abortion is HORRIBLE because EVERY life deserves a chance to be born and thrive (a position that I happen to share with you, by the way - and not because GOD told me to) but then turn around and have the attitude that it’s perfectly OK to mutilate a child with out it’s consent?
If a child has the RIGHT to live, then certainly it has the RIGHT to control the sanctity of it’s body. To hold any other opinion is completely hypocritical!
Now I’m sure you’re gonna come back with, “well in Genesis verse blah blah blah it CLEARLY says that GOD want’s to cut the tips of all Jewish dicks.” The operative word being JEWISH. Last time I checked you’re not Jewish. I’m not Jewish. Out of the SEVEN BILLION people in the world, only 13 million of them are Jewish. So WHY ALL THIS DICK CUTTING?[/quote]
How can you pretend to give a damn about circumcision, outside of using it to mount an offense against a religious practice, while whining about how politicians should shut up about the outright killing of the same child while in the womb?
[/quote]
Um… I’m AGAINST abortion, dude. That’s MY personal belief (and GOD didn’t tell me to believe it). You’ve got me confused with someone else. Having said that, I believe that a woman should have the right to control what goes on in her body and I think that in some cases abortion can be justified and I don’t consider the pill or emergency contraceptive pills to be abortion.
And which religious practice have I used circumcision to rail against? Have I ONCE in this thread or any thread said that Jews shouldn’t be circumcised? NO I HAVE NOT. But I am not Jewish, and I see NO reason for NON-Jews to be circumcised.
And I will CERTAINLY mount an offense against ANY religious practice that I feel infringes on the rights of other people or holds back science that has the potential to heal people that are sick or injured. Just because YOU believe something is bad, doesn’t mean that the rest of us have to be held back because of YOUR ignorance.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
It honestly makes me lose hope for us as a species when I reflect on how humans can be so conditioned by society and religion to believe that female genital mutilation is wrong and horrific, but that male circumcision is perfectly fine. It simply makes NO sense at all to be able to LOGICALLY hold those two positions at the same time.
It boggles my little brain.
If in 2012 we can be conditioned to hold THIS diametrically opposite opinion, how can ANYONE believe we are a rational species?
Can someone LOGICALLY please explain to me why it is wrong, barbaric, misogynistic and cruel to practice female genital mutilation but to then turn around and not bat an eye at circumcision? “just leave it up to the parents”.
I mean, HOW can you POSSIBLY reconcile those two opinions?! It makes no fucking sense…
Cutting girls = BAD - they’ve been doing it for thousands of years, but it needs to STOP, it’s wrong! We’re more evolved than that!
Cutting boys = sure - they’ve been doing it for thousands of years, who are YOU to tell me not to cut my son’s dick?
What. The. Fuck?[/quote]
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Here are all the comparative studies of penile sensitivity and sexual satisfaction before and after circumcision:
Please read each one.
Only #3, a study among Chinese comparing finger and glans vibratory threshholds, suggested a statistically significant (and not clinically significant) difference after circumcision.
All the other studies show no difference in sexual satisfaction and measures of sensitivity after circumcision or among circumcised men compared to uncircumcised men.
2: Krieger JN, Mehta SD, Bailey RC, Agot K, Ndinya-Achola JO, Parker C, Moses S.
Adult male circumcision: effects on sexual function and sexual satisfaction in
Kisumu, Kenya. J Sex Med. 2008 Nov;5(11):2610-22. Epub 2008 Aug 28. PubMed PMID:
18761593; PubMed Central PMCID: PMC3042320.
3: Yang DM, Lin H, Zhang B, Guo W. [Circumcision affects glans penis vibration
perception threshold]. Zhonghua Nan Ke Xue. 2008 Apr;14(4):328-30. Chinese.
PubMed PMID: 18481425.
4: Payne K, Thaler L, Kukkonen T, Carrier S, Binik Y. Sensation and sexual
arousal in circumcised and uncircumcised men. J Sex Med. 2007 May;4(3):667-74.
Epub 2007 Apr 6. PubMed PMID: 17419812.
5: Richters J, Smith AM, de Visser RO, Grulich AE, Rissel CE. Circumcision in
Australia: prevalence and effects on sexual health. Int J STD AIDS. 2006
Aug;17(8):547-54. PubMed PMID: 16925903.
6: Masood S, Patel HR, Himpson RC, Palmer JH, Mufti GR, Sheriff MK. Penile
sensitivity and sexual satisfaction after circumcision: are we informing men
correctly? Urol Int. 2005;75(1):62-6. PubMed PMID: 16037710.
7: Fink KS, Carson CC, DeVellis RF. Adult circumcision outcomes study: effect on
erectile function, penile sensitivity, sexual activity and satisfaction. J Urol.
2002 May;167(5):2113-6. PubMed PMID: 11956453.
[/quote]
Now compare that to female genital mutilation. After all this time, circumcision leading to noticeably reduced sexual pleasure is, at most, inconclusive. Female genital mutilation removes major structures of the genitals. The clitoris, it’s hood, and the labia. From one of these, to all. With the removal of the labia, the legs are often bound together so that what remains will heal together, leaving nothing but a tiny hole for the passage of urine. The practice is almost always stemming from a desire to greatly dampen, if not completely remove, female libido and sexual pleasure. To ensure virginity (an almost completely closed vaginal orifice) and/or as a preventive measure against adultery (no sexual libido). We might as well be comparing the piercing of ears, to their complete removal.
[/quote]
It’s NOT piercing. A KNIFE is taken to a little boy’s DICK and healthy, sensitive tissue is PERMANENTLY removed without anesthetic. BIG difference. So I have no problems whatsoever comparing it to female genital mutilation.
And it just so happens that circumcision became popular among genteels because it was thought to discourage masturbation and avoid “masturbatory insanity”. And female circumcision was widely practiced in the US until the late 20’s.
There were LOTS of religiously influenced “scientific beliefs” that caused all kinds of sexual abuse in the last 250 years. Thankfully most of it has stopped and would now be considered criminal. But somehow circumcision manages to keep hanging on… We’ve come a long way since then. Do you still believe that masturbation is a sin that causes insanity?
[/quote]
Have you yet looked at the above studies, and then compared this practice to actual female genital mutilation? Yes, you might as well be comparing ear piercing to ear removal. And once again, stop trying to take the high road, if you’re not adamantly pro-life. Circumcision vs death? Not even debatable. [/quote]
Are YOU Jewish? (I think not)
Then WHY do you have an opinion one way or the other about circumcision? It has NOTHING at all to do with YOUR religion…
Show me where it says in the Bible that NON-Jews should be circumcised.
female genital mutilation, just like male genital mutilation, comes in all forms.
Some cultures cut parts of labia major & minor and remove the clitoris, others only remove only a small part of the outer labiae etc
Same goes for sewing the orifice shut. Most don’t.
It’s like saying
“hitting boys is different then hitting girls cuase girls get hit with a sacred wooden stick, while boys taste the holy metal rod.”
This also means that a more benign form of female genital mutilation might be actually ok in your [Taliban] book!
It is telling that those defending barbarsim spent no time whatsoever researching the matter from all sides.
If I was the Rabbi I’d remind the Germans that they would allow for the legal killing of the same human life in the womb. At least in the first trimester, and even later having met conditions.
Now there’s a wordy way to say ‘but’ if I ever saw one.
So, you’re pro-choice after all?[/quote]
Can we talk about the complexity of my view point about abortion in the abortion thread please?
[/quote]
How about here?
This doesn’t sound pro-life to me.
Let me guess, you’ve read Freakanomics? [/quote]
I have posted my views on abortion in the abortion thread. As I stated I am PERSONALLY against abortion. I will fight tooth and nail to avoid having any of MY offspring aborted. I will not be discussing any more about abortion in this thread. This thread is about CIRCUMCISION. Go to the abortion thread and I will happily argue with you over there.
You give an ex-felon with no HS diploma too much credit. I have NOT read Freakanomics. My knowledge of economics comes from my mortgage background - I had to learn about it so that I could time the market to lock interest rates. My belief in less government regulation comes from the fact that my mortgage career was unceremoniously yanked out from under me by government regulation (fuck you, Barney Frank). My belief and understanding of business comes from starting (or investing in), growing and selling more than 25 small businesses. My political beliefs and understanding of politics comes from my interest and non-formal study of history, not from listening to the latest “pundit”.
I have an open mind and take the time to form my OWN opinions. Based on MY experiences and logic, not religion. I am not a parrot.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Do you still believe that masturbation is a sin that causes insanity?
[/quote]
He most likely does believe this and probably won’t answer the question.[/quote]
Do I believe masturbation is a sin? Um, yes. Obviously. I’ve never shied away from my orthodox moral beliefs…Do I believe it’ll cause insanity? I’ve no reason to believe so, and have never considered/proposed that it would.
Now, if you really want a stupid throwaway question answered, repeat it. But I’ll generally ignore the dumb, and engage what’s worthy of discussion. Being as I was pointing out the Doc’s studies–myself saying that the science is at most inconclusive in regard to circumcision and desensitization of the penis–I can’t seem to grasp how any discussion/questions about using circumcision as ‘masturbation prevention’ ended up being posed to me. In fact, who the hell has even argued this in the thread? It’s noise.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Do you still believe that masturbation is a sin that causes insanity?
[/quote]
He most likely does believe this and probably won’t answer the question.[/quote]
Let’s call him on the carpet then!
SLOTH!
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT MASTURBATION IS A SIN AND THAT IT CAUSES INSANITY?
If you don’t answer me, we’ll all know you are nothing but a coward and don’t have the ability to defend your beliefs.
[/quote]
A coward? Do you honestly think me, a guy who has repeatedly claimed that any and all sexual gratification is only rightfully ordered within a marriage, between a man and woman, has any fear of judgement from SAMA refugees and off-topicers? Oh please, take the coward stuff somewhere else.
I have posted my views on abortion in the abortion thread. As I stated I am PERSONALLY against abortion. I will fight tooth and nail to avoid having any of MY offspring aborted. [/quote]