Christopher Hitchens Dies

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
161

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
So, Let me get this straight. God created me and my children, so it’s okay if he wants his followers to kill me, rape my wife, and enslave my children? Yea…I don’t think so, fuck that.
[/quote]

You and your family will suffer the consequences of living in a sinful world just as the rest.

I firmly believe any physical suffering in this life will be more than compensated for in the next.

[quote]
it took me years to shake the hideous veil of religion from my face and embrace reality. I now can direct my love and attention to my loved ones who happen to be REAL. I no longer waste precious time and energy on imaginary friends and their doctrine of fear, guilt, and shame.[/quote]
Reject religion and believe the bible is fine with me. You can believe the bible or not, but the reality is you still suffer. Explain it to yourself however you want.

Also, I don’t have any trouble living as a Christian and loving my family. In fact, the bible helps me do it better.

And by the way, my saying you will believe the same as I at 50 years simply refers to the shortness of life.

162

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Some scary stuff in this thread…
[/quote]
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (Rev 20:11)

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Rev 20:12)

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (Rev 20:13)

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev 20:14)

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15)

It will be worse than any horror movie you’ve seen, if you stand before this throne having rejected Jesus Christ.

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It’s almost impossible that big brother Chen here and I won’t eventually really disagree on something, but it is great to him in action. Rock solid Word.

164

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
It’s almost impossible that big brother Chen here and I won’t eventually really disagree on something, but it is great to him in action. Rock solid Word. [/quote]
All in a days work.

165

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

Everyone gets want they want in the end, including my 3 sons. If you don’t want to suffer the judgement of God, you absolutely don’t have to. You didn’t choose to be born, and you don’t get to make your own eternity. You don’t get to move to another planet either. But you can have everything God wants to give you if you want.[/quote]

Lake of fire, or Celestial North Korea… hmmm I’ll have to think about that one.

Seriously though, that is pretty fucked up, putting children into a world that you think is run by a sky-tyrant who burns his own children for not living up to his standard. It’s like Fritzl’s wife going “oh sure Joe, lets have another one for the dungeon.”

166

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

Everyone gets want they want in the end, including my 3 sons. If you don’t want to suffer the judgement of God, you absolutely don’t have to. You didn’t choose to be born, and you don’t get to make your own eternity. You don’t get to move to another planet either. But you can have everything God wants to give you if you want.[/quote]

Lake of fire, or Celestial North Korea… hmmm I’ll have to think about that one.

Seriously though, that is pretty fucked up, putting children into a world that you think is run by a sky-tyrant who burns his own children for not living up to his standard. It’s like Fritzl’s wife going “oh sure Joe, lets have another one for the dungeon.”
[/quote]
You are ignoring the part about you don’t have to burn. You can choose Christ at any time. Believe-Repent-Recieve. If you reject it, I’d say you’re the one that’s messed up.

My 3 sons are all Christians. The 2 oldest are living happy productive lives. I was never afraid for them. I raised them to understand God and his gift of eternal life. Why would they refuse it?

You don’t believe it. Than you can just treat it as an interesting story right? Be happy with the philosophy you have constructed for yourself.

167

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

Everyone gets want they want in the end, including my 3 sons. If you don’t want to suffer the judgement of God, you absolutely don’t have to. You didn’t choose to be born, and you don’t get to make your own eternity. You don’t get to move to another planet either. But you can have everything God wants to give you if you want.[/quote]

Lake of fire, or Celestial North Korea… hmmm I’ll have to think about that one.

Seriously though, that is pretty fucked up, putting children into a world that you think is run by a sky-tyrant who burns his own children for not living up to his standard. It’s like Fritzl’s wife going “oh sure Joe, lets have another one for the dungeon.”
[/quote]
You are ignoring the part about you don’t have to burn. You can choose Christ at any time. Believe-Repent-Recieve. If you reject it, I’d say you’re the one that’s messed up.

My 3 sons are all Christians. The 2 oldest are living happy productive lives. I was never afraid for them. I raised them to understand God and his gift of eternal life. Why would they refuse it?

You don’t believe it. Than you can just treat it as an interesting story right? Be happy with the philosophy you have constructed for yourself.
[/quote]

Yes, quite.

So you don’t know any one who you consider a true believer who has had a son or daughter embrace a different faith than their parents? That is remarkable. Why would they refuse it? Tons of people do; Tirib has had it happen to him, as you can see further back in the thread. You think HE didn’t raise his sons to “understand God and his gift of eternal life?”

I’m just curious to understand how you give yourself permission to bring someone into this deadly game we’re all playing with our eternal souls at stake. Jesus didn’t command y’all to procreate after all, you could have been a monk.

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[quote]Quick Ben wrote:<<< You think (Trib) didn’t raise his sons to “understand God and his gift of eternal life?” >>>[/quote]I didn’t raise my sons at all. A young unwise choice in wives put me in the arms of a serial adulteress who with the aid of the God hating state of New York took them away from me when they were four.[quote]Quick Ben wrote:<<< Jesus didn’t command y’all to procreate after all,>>>[/quote]Yes He did and parenthood is a singular joy and awesome responsibility.[quote]Quick Ben wrote:<<< you could have been a monk. >>>[/quote]Only those specifically so gifted are to remain unmarried and celibate according to the seventh chapter of Paul’s first letter to the church at Corinth.

Like I told Sparky a page or two back. The trouble you’re having is that you understand neither the unfathomable holiness of the God who is there nor the unforgivable violence that your sin (and mine) perpetrates upon that holiness. Every instance of divine judgement recorded in the Old Testament is a wet kiss compared to the unholy violence of that one bite of disobedience committed by father Adam against the purity of God’s person and nature.

This is not an attack on you as an individual Ben. I wish you could believe that. It’s a statement of the gospel. It absolutely applies to me too. I am not pointing my finger at anybody here as if I am better or more deserving. I should have been consumed by His terrible anger thousands, maybe millions of times over.

The only being in all of history who is both God and man, and hence the only one who could, has satisfied that wrath on my behalf. I can now approach the throne of the King of all kings with boldness as His son and fellow heir with His firstborn Christ Jesus. I can barely choke back the tears at such unimaginable love and grace.

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Of the 40+ families I know of that are members of my local church or one like it, I don’t know of one that started out right but their children refused Jesus Christ into their adult years. I guess that would cover at least 80 kids. Notice I said started out right.

If parents come to their faith in Christ later in their marriage, there may be some damage already done to their children that cannot be easily undone, but that’s not we’re discussing here. I can’t speak to Trib’s situation, as I don’t know the situation from day one.

Also, I cannot speak for other brands of “Christianity”. If you’re a Pentacostal wacko for example, I would expect your kids to reject such nonsense as soon as they are old enough to reason on their own. There are all kinds out their that claim the name of Christ, as we’ve gone over before. If you’re not going to fully follow the bible with reverence, humility, and diligent study, it’s anybody’s guess what results you’ll get with your kids.

If you forget to teach your teen he must stay on his side of the dotted line at all times when he drives, it doesn’t matter how well he clutches, or how clean he keeps the car, he’s probably going to die young. You’ve got to do things right. Everything is like this, not just raising kids.

If I thought a young couple was not ready to do it right, I certainly would advise them not to have kids.

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Tirib is a calvinist, or so I’ve gathered. And you Chen, a catholic? You have to do a little better than “I don’t know anyone who raised their kids in what I consider to be a perfect way and then have it turn out bad.” Do you know believers who have non-believing kids or no? Surely Jesus himself said that the last will be first, and the first will be last. Getting it right from birth is not a requirement, or a guarantee that a person will stay the course. As such, you crawled on top of the wifey and rolled the dice like everyone else.

And to think Jesus tried so hard to give you all a very easy way to lead a good life. It’s sad to see that his disciples and church have fucked it all up. Sorry boys, I have to go with Gandhi when it comes to the life and teachings of Jesus. As for the all the OT stuff, come now… there are far likelier explanations for how that stuff came to be written than “God said so.” You try cramming two of every kind of animal on a boat and going for a spin. I’ll wait.

Btw, have any of you nutbags heard of Ramana Maharshi? NUTBAGS being a term of endearment, don’t worry.

171

How does the word DINOSAUR fit into your world view? I’m seriously curious. My father solves that particular problem by scoffing loudly every time that word gets mentioned. I wonder how a razor sharp realist like Greg deals with it.

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[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

Also, I cannot speak for other brands of “Christianity”. If you’re a Pentacostal wacko for example, I would expect your kids to reject such nonsense as soon as they are old enough to reason on their own. There are all kinds out their that claim the name of Christ, as we’ve gone over before. If you’re not going to fully follow the bible with reverence, humility, and diligent study, it’s anybody’s guess what results you’ll get with your kids.

[/quote]

Why do you consider Pentalcostal’s wackos?

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:<<< You think (Trib) didn’t raise his sons to “understand God and his gift of eternal life?” >>>[/quote]I didn’t raise my sons at all. A young unwise choice in wives put me in the arms of a serial adulteress who with the aid of the God hating state of New York took them away from me when they were four.
[/quote]

Were you a believer back then already?

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[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:<<< You think (Trib) didn’t raise his sons to “understand God and his gift of eternal life?” >>>[/quote]I didn’t raise my sons at all. A young unwise choice in wives put me in the arms of a serial adulteress who with the aid of the God hating state of New York took them away from me when they were four.
[/quote]Were you a believer back then already? [/quote]Yes. We were married the night before we left Arizona for North Dakota for me to attend bible college in the summer of 1985. They were born the next year. Nothing has gone as I’d hoped for them or with them. Some of it my fault. The God I serve is much more faithful than I am. There are some things I will never stop trusting Him for while I am breathing. He spared me in spite of my pathetic weakness and selfishness. I will never again forget.

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[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

Believe-Repent-Recieve. If you reject it, I’d say you’re the one that’s messed up.

[/quote]

This is just mind boggling. I cannot force myself to believe that Jesus was a God any more than you can force yourself to believe that he was not. What is so hard to understand about that?

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A note to Quick Ben and a couple others (bigflamer perhaps). You might consider reading the book the Good and Beautiful God. I say that because it may aid you in understanding how in the world people like Tirib and Chen can possibly feel as they do about the goodness of God. Sort of a “sociology in action” thing. The book isn’t a proselytizing nightmare, although unfortunately for you it will not address the intellectual argument/debate/train wreck/pissing contest that you find so stimulating (and myself as well). So I recommend it on both those accounts.

I would suggest reading it with your cynicism off. I have a rather overactive cynicism button myself, but I think you’ll understand more about how many Christians like Tirib feel about God if you just read it like a book and think about it rather than going all Hitchens on it from the word “go” :P. I mean, come on, you already know you’re going to disagree with about everything in there from the start, so just read it to get an idea about how they feel. It’s an extremely easy read and short so I don’t think it should cause too much trouble. Note that I am not advising you or anybody else to do this out of any ulterior motive! I just think it will be useful for your future encounters with people of faith.

I might also suggest the book “Sensual Orthodoxy” for the same reason. Apologies to our resident swinger pushharder but it is not sensual at all in the way he might want unfortunately hahaha. It’s only like 100 pages or something, so for all intents you could cover it in an afternoon and be no worse for the wear. I don’t think it is as insightful as “Good and Beautiful God” or as…I dunno… accessible maybe? In the sense that I think G/B seems to concentrate solely on the question of how people feel about the christian God. But sort of the same vein.

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[quote]Quick Ben wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

Believe-Repent-Recieve. If you reject it, I’d say you’re the one that’s messed up.

[/quote]

This is just mind boggling. I cannot force myself to believe that Jesus was a God any more than you can force yourself to believe that he was not. What is so hard to understand about that?[/quote]

See, this is what I don’t understand about you–you seem to buy completely into the “environment” argument and say that one cannot possibly change their beliefs, which I don’t agree with and which for all practical purposes seems to be patently false when looking at the myriad conversion/deconversion stories famous and not-so-famous people have had throughout the centuries. (Not just Christianity either, all of it).

But then you say that you’re “searching” as you did earlier in the thread. Well…what on earth for? If you can’t change your beliefs why bother searching? “Searching” implies the possibility of change pretty overtly. Even though I do think that a “non-searching” person should still be relatively exposed and well-versed in religions (understand your opposition’s positions, etc) anyways. As I said before, it is the mark of an intelligent person to be able to seriously consider an idea without accepting it. Or, more succinctly “beware the man of one book”.

I am not of the mind that people can just spontaneously believe something most times, although I will submit that it happens very occasionally, as your story of how it clicked all of a sudden in your head that you just didn’t “buy this shit” explains (unbelief is a belief too, in the strict philosophical sense of the word). I do however think that somebody who engages in serious research into any topic whether philosophy, religion, science, or politics CAN come to believe differently than they did before. Over time. With considerable internal and/or external debate. I do not see how the possibility of that happening is arguable considering the vast numbers of people who switch political positions, or positions in philosophy, or convert or de-convert from religion, or what-have-you.

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I made it through about 20 minutes of a Debbie Blue “sermon” from her “church” website. A female “pastor” to begin with. She is a fruity, clueless, blaspheming, biblically illiterate product of this age who illustrates perfectly why this nation is decaying from the inside out. Like wow man. She sounds like a valley girl. Whatever that is? It ain’t the living God of the bible.

All I had to read was “united methodist” about the other guy and I knew the satanic post modern liberalism I’m in for there too. Call me what you want. I can take it and I’m used to it. The God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob is good and beautiful indeed. He reserves the hottest parts of hell for people who reproach and dishonor His glorious name with their anti biblical self worshiping idolatry.

Aragorn. I knew when we spoke last year, but you disappoint me grievously man. I know you don’t care.

Here ya go Brother Chen. If you are so inclined. Sermons | House of Mercy Have a vomit bag handy and be prepared to have your heart broken by seeing the Lord your God, the holy one of Israel, the ancient of days treated with such disdain.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I made it through about 20 minutes of a Debbie Blue “sermon” from her “church” website. A female “pastor” to begin with. She is a fruity, clueless, blaspheming, biblically illiterate product of this age who illustrates perfectly why this nation is decaying from the inside out. Like wow man. She sounds like a valley girl. Whatever that is? It ain’t the living God of the bible.

All I had to read was “united methodist” about the other guy and I knew the satanic post modern liberalism I’m in for there too. Call me what you want. I can take it and I’m used to it. The God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob is good and beautiful indeed. He reserves the hottest parts of hell for people who reproach and dishonor His glorious name with their anti biblical self worshiping idolatry.

Aragorn. I knew when we spoke last year, but you disappoint me grievously man. I know you don’t care.

Here ya go Brother Chen. If you are so inclined. Sermons | House of Mercy Have a vomit bag handy and be prepared to have your heart broken by seeing the Lord your God, the holy one of Israel, the ancient of days treated with such disdain. [/quote]

Well I am sorry you feel that way. I doubt you will do so, but you might give the book a read. It is the only exposure I have had to her and I don’t know her or follow her. Sorry. But it was an interesting read from a different perspective. Also I have no idea what you have against female pastors.

You paint with far too broad a brush friend. Not all united methodists are the same you know, just like Catholics and Protestants are not all the same. I’m surprised to see you play that card, you should know better–just as there are Baptists who would make the term “liberal” seem positively puritanical, so there are “united methodists” who don’t toe the official party line. I thought you would have recognized that at least enough to avoid making a surface judgment on that particular author, who, incidentally, has said some things you would probably definitely agree with. Nobody agrees with each other 100% anyways, so if that’s your yardstick for measuring “being saved” I feel bad for you. Even the apostles disagreed over some pretty serious issues in their day, and people of that early church did as well, while still being “Christian”.

Besides which I did not suggest the book on its theological and historical merits. Nor did I suggest it with “conversion” in mind. I suggested it because it is an interesting read into how somebody can hold that “God is Good” view that you have, when it looks stupid to others. The psychology of the thing, so to speak (and that is not meant in a derisive or “pathological” way, simple subject categorization, that’s all). And it is not preachy or pretentious.

Seriously, you might try reading the book before you crap on it and the author. I didn’t recommend it for YOU either, but I at least have the decency to do that with the books people recommend to me, even if I end up being right. I try not to judge a book’s content without having read it first.

Shit, CS Lewis was an Anglican! He couldn’t POSSIBLY have anything relevant or meaningful to say about Protestant Christianity! Nor could J.R.R. Tolkien—he was a bloody CATHOLIC. Come on, you ought to know better.

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It is not “psychology”. It is a mind renewed in the holy Spirit of almighty God. I have against female senior pastors anyway that the Word of God forbids it. I now how anachronistic that may sound, but God’s truth is eternal.

I have never yet met or heard of anybody of prominence in ANY body affiliated with the national or world council of churches, which are marked instantly by the “United” in the name, who were faithful to the true gospel of Jesus Christ. Ever. The reviews didn’t look too promising either.

Please hear this too. I once owned a personal library of well over 2000 volumes, about 40 or 45% of which was total crap. On purpose. I have read more heretical God hating heresy than dare I say everybody else in these threads combined. I will look at anything. Matthew 7:13-14 [quote]<<< 13-"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14-“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it”. >>>[/quote] God does not leave it up to us to define His truth for Him. He has a very narrow and simple plan. YOU are dead. HE will make you live. On His terms His way.

It ain’t about good morals (which is a joke for all these emergent whores anyway) or nifty sayings and peachy lovey feelings. It’s about life and death. Debbie Blue is a proclaimer of doctrines of demons for those who “will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, turning away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths”. Come on, you know where that is. Listen to that reprehensible “sermon” on the golden calf and tell me what you think.

See you think guys like Push are funny. That tells me a lot. I would very much like to hear your view on what she says in that getting out of Egypt piece. 10/16/11 – Getting Out of Egypt (Rev. Debbie Blue) | House of Mercy I can predict it now. Ohhhhh, yer jist seeing it yer way… she didn’t mean anything bad. We are lost. The western world is lost and floundering in a sea of satanic broad minded tolerance.

Here. Ya want something worth reading for somebody who actually loves the one true God of all creation. His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity-Table of Contents" That’s how the bible is done my friend.