Christopher Hitchens Dies

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
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[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
If you were to confine this statement to Europe during the Middle Ages, I could agree with you. Through most of the churches history however, it has been at the receiving end of violence. This is the case even today for much of the Middle East. And in China, Christianity has grown tremendously in the last 20 years, even though the government is rather against it. The same is true in Vietnam.
[/quote]

Competing ideologies are like that, they don’t exactly care for other other organizations swooping in on their turf and stealing their “flock”. If you think of religion as a drug, and their respective organizations as cartels, you can see this for whaty it is, which is nothing more than turf wars with cartels pushing their drug onto new turfs.

Just a new version of the same old story. My advice? Get off the drug and just say no…
[/quote]
Everyone has their ideology, or drug as you say. Yourself no less.[/quote]

Yes, I’m absolutely drunk on logic and reason.
[/quote]
Your sarcasm is noted. I will just say I have read enough philosophy to know that so much is just mental masturbation. Perhaps you prefer it to weed. As I said, to each his own.

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[quote]Quick Ben wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
Ben-

Those of us who believe the bible is the Word of God believe so because we read it, and came to that conclusion. I take that you have not read it in it’s entirety yet. As a college student I didn’t believe it either, and had many the same ideas as you. That was more than 30 years ago. I am a practical person, and if it hadn’t been able to convince me time and again it was the book God wrote for me, I would’ve dumped it a long time ago.

Pro 1:2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
Pro 1:3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
Pro 1:4 To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
Pro 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise
counsels:

Pro 1:32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
Pro 1:33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

God is a spirit, and He will not show you the deepest things about Himself through scientific inquiry and reason. These are just tools, not all that as.

[/quote]

My own search is far from over. FAR from over.

I must ask if you devoted the same amount of time to studying Advaita Vedanta as you did the Bible. How about Mormonism? Islam?[/quote]
I did not. I don’t know if you’ve ever had the occasion to really need a health professional. You’ve got to have one that absolutely knows what he’s doing, and you’ve only got one chance. Once you find that guy, you’re very clear about it, and you don’t go looking anymore after that, as there’s no need to. My discovery of the bible was basically like that. That’s not to say I knew nothing of Hinduism, Islam, Mormonism, or Buddhism.

I will add that since then I have read some in all of these (translated into English), and I find nothing to attract me.

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[quote]bigflamer wrote:
“Most people are bothered by those passages of Scripture they do not understand,
but the passages that bother me are those I do understand.” -Mark Twain[/quote]

The violent passages in the bible are troubling to all, even Christians. The most basic answer Trib has already covered- you are a created being, and your Creator has the right to do with you as He wants, whether or not you understand it or like it. You don’t accept this answer, but from the presupposition that God is your creator, it’s completely reasonable.

There is another aspect to the issue that few think about though, namely that God is not that concerned with your flesh. He doesn’t place nearly as much importance on your physical life as you do. He is a spirit, He has made you a living soul, and it is this non-physical part of your being that is eternal. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away (1Pe 1:24) As well, in real time, that is God’s time, your life is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. (Jas 4:14)

Your 80 yrs of life is very short. When you hit 50 you will agree with me entirely. What goes on in your soul and conscience is exceedingly more important to God than any physical pain you might suffer.

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Yes to Mr. Chen again. I do not spend hours isolating the judgements of God on Israel because I love reading about the terrible suffering of others nor do I get off on watching God kill people. I do not however spend one single calories (anymore) wondering HOW on earth God could do something like that. Two reasons. I have come to understand one millions times better, both the holiness of God and the violence that sin, my sin, offers to that holiness.

Once that starts to come into focus, no matter how hair raising the penalties we see in the Old Testament, they are still far short of what could justly be meted out.

That is a great point about the present pre-resurrection body being entirely subservient in purpose to the eternity that is to follow. I hadn’t thought of that. I’ll give sparky here a hint while I’m at it. God giving the women of conquered nations as wives to the Jews was far more than merciful. The alternative would have been to kill them or leave them to die slowly like the heathens did. Here’s another hint. The period between the garden of Eden and the day of Pentecost in the 2nd chapter of acts was one of terrible degradation of both marriage and women in general due to the fall into sin.

Jesus Christ, the last Adam (1st Corinthians 15) has not only restored that original godly relationship and the stature of women, but highly exalted it to the level of portraying the love of Christ Himself for His church (Ephesians 5) commanding husbands to give themselves for their wives as He did for His church. I’ll still take one of Sparky’s prized examples if he wishes though.

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[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

There is another aspect to the issue that few think about though, namely that God is not that concerned with your flesh. He doesn’t place nearly as much importance on your physical life as you do. He is a spirit, He has made you a living soul, and it is this non-physical part of your being that is eternal. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away (1Pe 1:24) As well, in real time, that is God’s time, your life is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. (Jas 4:14)

Your 80 yrs of life is very short. When you hit 50 you will agree with me entirely. What goes on in your soul and conscience is exceedingly more important to God than any physical pain you might suffer.
[/quote]

I like the stakes in this game, lol. You get 80 years, or 70, 60, 50, or 14 for all we know, and if you can’t figure out the right thing to believe in that span of time you go to hell for eternity. And this is well deserved! After all you had the temerity to participate right? Oh no wait, no one asked to be born. Shit, this really is HARD CORE! We are supposedly made in God’s image, and so have a finite and limited version of his logic and moral values, yet God’s book leaves any moral person feeling outraged. What gives?

How do Christians get up the courage to procreate? Surely you must know some man in your congregation whose son or daughter has rejected the faith. If I believed as you do, I couldn’t bring myself to have children.

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[quote]Quick Ben wrote:<<< If I believed as you do, I couldn’t bring myself to have children.[/quote]If you believed as we do Ben you would understand. I know how it looks to you my friend believe me, but obedience is the practical point of salvation. He frees us from sin to live in harmony with Him again. Imperfectly until the resurrection, but He puts the obedience, sacrifice and resurrection of His own Son to our account with Him and pronounces us not simply not guilty, which would be awesome enough, but takes us as His brothers, His bride and His sons. His commands are not burdensome or fearful. They are my joy and privilege. I love Him and I trust Him because I KNOW Him. He lives in me. It is not explicable in so many words. He is my first and most basic belief. I would doubt my own existence before doubting His.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:<<< If I believed as you do, I couldn’t bring myself to have children.[/quote]If you believed as we do Ben you would understand. I know how it looks to you my friend believe me, but obedience is the practical point of salvation. He frees us from sin to live in harmony with Him again. Imperfectly until the resurrection, but He puts the obedience, sacrifice and resurrection of His own Son to our account with Him and pronounces us not simply not guilty, which would be awesome enough, but takes us as His brothers, His bride and His sons. His commands are not burdensome or fearful. They are my joy and privilege. I love Him and I trust Him because I KNOW Him. He lives in me. It is not explicable in so many words. He is my first and most basic belief. I would doubt my own existence before doubting His.
[/quote]

All right, and if your son should turn out to be gay? Or God forbid, a Jehovas Witness… o_O

What then? Aaah shucks, he wasn’t one of the elect, and I trust God so he’s probably just testing me. You do have a LOT of faith, brother.

How can anyone read the story of Job and say that “His commands are not burdensome or fearful.”

Don’t answer that, I know already.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

No, that’s where you’re wrong. YOU have an imaginary friend who YOU think created everything through so much wizardry and magic, I do not.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I am committed in another thread for sure. Which of these “concerns” you the most. Or which do you feel could most likely and or seriously “damage” the alone sovereign of the universe before His probing insolent creatures? Serious question. Could I ask you to pick the one you feel most problematic for me?[/quote]

“His probing insolent creatures?” Seriously Trib…WTF.

They all concern me, and they all present as more than troubling to logical reasoned individuals willing to see them for what they are and what they represent. Like I said, I realize that you may have other threads going, but do make an effort to actually address them and answer the questions I posed for you.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Most people, including Clemens, are dead in sin friend. It is no wonder that they exalt themselves over the King of Creation. That’s what they’re supposed to do. Having feasted on His everlasting loving kindness and glimpsed His beautiful face, I am bothered by NO passage of scripture. Please cut me a bit o slack and pick one.
[/quote]

More nonsense. Please just address the disgusting verse that was posted, please tell me how any of it is what one would expect to find in a “good book”.

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Some scary stuff in this thread…

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[quote]bigflamer wrote:<<< More nonsense. Please just address the disgusting verse that was posted, >>>[/quote]Which verse would that be. I’m not wasting a ton of time I don’t have presenting sound biblical exegesis and exposition to someone who’s only interest is in escaping moral responsibility from his spotlessly just and holy creator. If you’re all exercised and disturbed, you’ll just have to stay that way. I gave you a huge chunk in the post to Mr. Chen. I may even pick a largely representative one for you if I get time. [quote]bigflamer wrote:<<< please tell me how any of it is what one would expect to find in a “good book”.[/quote]God defines EVERYTHING, including good. When you can command light and matter into existence from nothing I’ll be real interested in your opinion on what’s right. Until then you might want to look into some of the other threads I’m participating in for some more answers. You won’t though because you don’t want answers. You like yourself just as you are. On the throne of your own life dictating eternal reality for yourself.

Ya know what’s funny? I can just tell. You and I would like each other in real life. Shoot I like ya just fine now. Here: John Gills Exposition of the Bible Commentary Take a look at a real student of scripture and look some of your own passages up. Har dee har har huh?

151

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
“Most people are bothered by those passages of Scripture they do not understand,
but the passages that bother me are those I do understand.” -Mark Twain[/quote]

The violent passages in the bible are troubling to all, even Christians. The most basic answer Trib has already covered- you are a created being, and your Creator has the right to do with you as He wants, whether or not you understand it or like it. You don’t accept this answer, but from the presupposition that God is your creator, it’s completely reasonable. [/quote]

So, Let me get this straight. God created me and my children, so it’s okay if he wants his followers to kill me, rape my wife, and enslave my children? Yea…I don’t think so, fuck that.

“Be a good little slave, suffer in silence, and love me for it”.

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
There is another aspect to the issue that few think about though, namely that God is not that concerned with your flesh. He doesn’t place nearly as much importance on your physical life as you do. He is a spirit, He has made you a living soul, and it is this non-physical part of your being that is eternal. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away (1Pe 1:24) As well, in real time, that is God’s time, your life is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. (Jas 4:14)

Your 80 yrs of life is very short. When you hit 50 you will agree with me entirely. What goes on in your soul and conscience is exceedingly more important to God than any physical pain you might suffer.
[/quote]

I doubt it very much. I’m 37 right now, and it took me years to shake the hideous veil of religion from my face and embrace reality. I now can direct my love and attention to my loved ones who happen to be REAL. I no longer waste precious time and energy on imaginary friends and their doctrine of fear, guilt, and shame.

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[quote]Quick Ben wrote:<<< All right, and if your son should turn out to be gay? Or God forbid, a Jehovahs Witness… o_O >>>[/quote]I have grown twin sons who are not saved . They don’t have to be gay or cultists to be lost. They just have to be born and not yet redeemed.[quote]Quick Ben wrote:<<< What then? Aaah shucks, he wasn’t one of the elect, and I trust God so he’s probably just testing me. You do have a LOT of faith, brother. >>>.[/quote]I don’t know God’s purposes beyond what He reveals. I have no idea who His elect are. I pray for my sons and believe God on their behalf. [quote]Quick Ben wrote:<<< How can anyone read the story of Job and say that “His commands are not burdensome or fearful.” >>>[/quote]What commands would those be? Job did not accuse God and said that “though He slay me I will trust Him” and “shall I receive good from the Lord and not evil? Naked I came into this world and naked I will go out. Blessed be the name of the Lord.”.[quote]Quick Ben wrote:<<< Don’t answer that, I know already.[/quote]He is God and I am not.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

I am disappointed.

All that turmoil after the Tree of Knowledge incident and this is where it ends.

<---- disappoint

Also, if you eat something and you think a snake is talking to you, PUT IT DOWN!

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[quote]orion wrote:<<< Also, if you eat something and you think a snake is talking to you, PUT IT DOWN![/quote]Now he tells us. A little late ain’t ya pal?

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:<<< Also, if you eat something and you think a snake is talking to you, PUT IT DOWN![/quote]Now he tells us. A little late ain’t ya pal?
[/quote]

Dunno, I ate mushrooms once and my bedsheet was telling me stories in moving pictures.

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[quote]orion wrote:<<< Dunno, I ate mushrooms once and my bedsheet was telling me stories in moving pictures. [/quote]You must be talkin about Red Barchetta. That’s the only story on Moving Pictures.

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Tiribulus,

I am sorry to hear about your sons. That must cause you a lot of heartache, even if I do think it’s entirely unnecessary for you to feel as you do.

“Naked into this world and I will leave naked.”

I like that, it jives with my belief that if you are given life, you owe a death and nothing more.

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[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
Tiribulus,

I am sorry to hear about your sons. That must cause you a lot of heartache, even if I do think it’s entirely unnecessary for you to feel as you do.

“Naked into this world and I will leave naked.”

I like that, it jives with my belief that if you are given life, you owe a death and nothing more.[/quote]Ya know Ben, that is awful nice of you. I appreciate that. There’s long stories there, but I am not downed out at all. Not after the breathtaking grace He has shown me. I believe He will save my sons and if He doesn’t? He is still God and He is still good. There are no tears in the resurrection. He will be praised by me for both His wondrous mercy and His exacting justice. Not because I am a sooper saint. But because that’s what EVERYBODY will do. Every knee WILL bow and every tongue WILL confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

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[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
I like the stakes in this game, lol. You get 80 years, or 70, 60, 50, or 14 for all we know, and if you can’t figure out the right thing to believe in that span of time you go to hell for eternity.
[/quote]
It only took me 18 years. I’ve seen plenty of kids figure it out in less than 10 years. You are making it more complicated than it has to be. But I can’t diagnose your heart for you.

The heart, is deep.(Psa 64:6) In the end, God will make it eminently clear to you what you deserve and why. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. (Ecc 12:14)

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:(Rom 3:10)
You claim to be moral only by your own standards, by God’s you are far from it. So, you cannot clearly evaluate the things you read in the Old Testament. I have given you a perspective on it, but you disregard that perspective. This perspective is also from God’s book, else I could not know it. It is not illogical; you simply don’t like it.

Everyone gets want they want in the end, including my 3 sons. If you don’t want to suffer the judgement of God, you absolutely don’t have to. You didn’t choose to be born, and you don’t get to make your own eternity. You don’t get to move to another planet either. But you can have everything God wants to give you if you want.