Christopher Hitchens Dies

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
Christianity did produce some pretty gruesome results. How people cold ever get the idea to kill in the name of Jesus is beyond me.
[/quote]
I entirely agree. I do not equate the Roman Catholic Church’s inquisition of say those who didn’t believe the eucharist is the literal body of Christ, or their support of the Ustashi during WW2. Jesus Christ never even intimated such would be right.[/quote]

Ah but would Christianity have survived to this day without Rome and all the bloodshed that followed? As you can probably tell from the thread I started, I think it wouldn’t have. Offering salvation to people who LIVE for killing, by allowing them to slaughter “infidels.” Genius.[/quote]

Biblical Christianity was persecuted by Rome, yet survived in spite of it. The bible never needed Rome’s help, and never had it.[/quote]

Christianity was nothing more than a cult before the Roman Empire decide to embrace it. Yes it’s true that originally christians were scorned in favor of the pagan gods, but then Constantine went all politician on us and flip flopped. Christianity was nothing more than a cult before the Roman Empire raised it up, sooooo, that had to help a teensy bit.
[/quote]

You can call it whatever you want. Those simple Christians who kept the teachings of the apostles were called by many names throughout history. The system that developed after Constantine’s decree conflicted with their biblical faith in many ways.[/quote]

No it did not.

Because they had no Bible.

82

Chen,

I certainly am not going to argue that Christianity went in the direction that Jesus or the disciples intended. I will however contend that it’s unlikely that Christianity would be as wide spread today if it weren’t for its violent history. A perverted version of Christianity though it might be.

83

Poor Orion. You sound like you are repeating something the nun told you in 6th grade.

How many copies of scripture were in existence by the time of Constantine? Was it he that settled the canon of scripture?

Sorry young man. It’s the holiday, and I don’t want to spoil the cheer. Have a good weekend.

84

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
Poor Orion. You sound like you are repeating something the nun told you in 6th grade.

How many copies of scripture were in existence by the time of Constantine? Was it he that settled the canon of scripture?

Sorry young man. It’s the holiday, and I don’t want to spoil the cheer. Have a good weekend.[/quote]

Monk and it would be 5fth grade.

And, many, there was not one, single, unified, dare I say it catholic compendium before the council of Nicaea.

Oral traditions, several testaments and so further and so on, which existed in as many versions as Norse sagas.

No biblical before Constantine, you need a Bible to be biblical.

85

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
Poor Orion. You sound like you are repeating something the nun told you in 6th grade.

How many copies of scripture were in existence by the time of Constantine? Was it he that settled the canon of scripture?

Sorry young man. It’s the holiday, and I don’t want to spoil the cheer. Have a good weekend.[/quote]

Monk and it would be 5fth grade.

And, many, there was not one, single, unified, dare I say it catholic compendium before the council of Nicaea.

Oral traditions, several testaments and so further and so on, which existed in as many versions as Norse sagas.

No biblical before Constantine, you need a Bible to be biblical.[/quote]

WORD

86

[quote]orion wrote:<<< No biblical before Constantine, you need a Bible to be biblical.[/quote]The creation of the universe was biblical before there was either.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:<<< No biblical before Constantine, you need a Bible to be biblical.[/quote]The creation of the universe was biblical before there was either.
[/quote]

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…

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[quote]storey420 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:<<< No biblical before Constantine, you need a Bible to be biblical.[/quote]The creation of the universe was biblical before there was either.
[/quote][/quote]Sarcasm duly noted though what I said is absolutely true. But why Biden? He looks like an aide just told him he’s living in the United States or something there.

Mr. Chen doesn’t appear to need my help, but if he’s really away for the weekend I may not be able to resist pitchin a couple more cents in here. I never herda this guy before a couple days ago though He’s been here 3 years longer than I have and I came here in 06. He jist may be fer real. I spent an hour going through his posting history last night. Pretty solid and very VERY rare here among people claiming Christ. “Bless the Lord oh my soul and all that is within me bless His holy name”. (1st verse of the 103rd Psalm). I’m lookin forward to more from him.

90

I feel bad about leaving you boys out in the cold on Christmas Eve, it just wouldn’t be very catholic of me, so I’ll toss you a few crumbs, but then I’m going back inside.

You will need to go back, check your history, and note that Constantine did not form the canon. Also remember, the scripture is a collection of 66 books, ALL of which were written before he was born.

Okay, so if you guys are going to keep repeating yourselves, I won’t answer.

Blessings of St. Nick on you all.

91

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
Poor Orion. You sound like you are repeating something the nun told you in 6th grade.

How many copies of scripture were in existence by the time of Constantine? Was it he that settled the canon of scripture?

Sorry young man. It’s the holiday, and I don’t want to spoil the cheer. Have a good weekend.[/quote]

Monk and it would be 5fth grade.
[/quote]

It was towards the end of the month of December, and the boys at the St. Ottilien Monastery School were being led in review for final exams. The monk would ask a question and the 5th grade boys would answer in unison-

Who was the first Pope? Peter
Who was Mary? The Mother of God
And who gave us the bible? Constantine

Just as the last answer died out, a boyishly loud fart was heard in the classroom. The monk had turned briefly away from his class,and surprisingly, did not turn back around. It was not because he didn’t hear the noise, for it truly was a loud one. Loud enough to startle the jay sitting outside on the window sill. Rather, he began to write names on the chalk board.

James
Gregory
Alfred
Orion
Matthew

After the 3rd name went up, these boys realized, he was bracketing the originating location of the assaulting sound. They all tensed, and looked furtively at each other. The monk turned, and began to walk to their corner of the classroom. There had been some giggling while he was still at the board, but now it was silent. None of the boys dared to move. The monk took one step past Orion’s desk, then quickly turned again with the stealth of a wolf. “What is that piece of paper under your text young Orion?” Orion knew there was no hope, drew the picture out from underneath and placed it on top. A picture of the current pope with a Hitler mustache covered the paper. Swastikas were exchanged for the crosses on his robes. Actually a talented drawing. Suddenly the monk boomed, “THE STENCH OF YOUR LAZINESS PUNISHES US, AND NOW THIS BLASPHEMY! Of course your parents will find out about this, and it’s doubtful you will return after the holiday.” Then he stepped quickly back to the front of the class, and resumed the review questions. Matthew kicked Orion’s chair in a show of support, but no one dared laugh. Orion sat numbly for the next minute. Then, a sly smile crossed his face, as he returned to answering the monk teacher with extra vigor.

It was as the monk predicted. Young Orion did not return after the Christmas holiday. Certainly a blessing in the long run though, as it later came to light, this monk teacher with the peculiar skill had exercised it on other boys in even more peculiar ways outside the classroom.

92

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
Poor Orion. You sound like you are repeating something the nun told you in 6th grade.

How many copies of scripture were in existence by the time of Constantine? Was it he that settled the canon of scripture?

Sorry young man. It’s the holiday, and I don’t want to spoil the cheer. Have a good weekend.[/quote]

Monk and it would be 5fth grade.
[/quote]

It was towards the end of the month of December, and the boys at the St. Ottilien Monastery School were being led in review for final exams. The monk would ask a question and the 5th grade boys would answer in unison-

Who was the first Pope? Peter
Who was Mary? The Mother of God
And who gave us the bible? Constantine

Just as the last answer died out, a boyishly loud fart was heard in the classroom. The monk had turned briefly away from his class,and surprisingly, did not turn back around. It was not because he didn’t hear the noise, for it truly was a loud one. Loud enough to startle the jay sitting outside on the window sill. Rather, he began to write names on the chalk board.

James
Gregory
Alfred
Orion
Matthew

After the 3rd name went up, these boys realized, he was bracketing the originating location of the assaulting sound. They all tensed, and looked furtively at each other. The monk turned, and began to walk to their corner of the classroom. There had been some giggling while he was still at the board, but now it was silent. None of the boys dared to move. The monk took one step past Orion’s desk, then quickly turned again with the stealth of a wolf. “What is that piece of paper under your text young Orion?” Orion knew there was no hope, drew the picture out from underneath and placed it on top. A picture of the current pope with a Hitler mustache covered the paper. Swastikas were exchanged for the crosses on his robes. Actually a talented drawing. Suddenly the monk boomed, “THE STENCH OF YOUR LAZINESS PUNISHES US, AND NOW THIS BLASPHEMY! Of course your parents will find out about this, and it’s doubtful you will return after the holiday.” Then he stepped quickly back to the front of the class, and resumed the review questions. Matthew kicked Orion’s chair in a show of support, but no one dared laugh. Orion sat numbly for the next minute. Then, a sly smile crossed his face, as he returned to answering the monk teacher with extra vigor.

It was as the monk predicted. Young Orion did not return after the Christmas holiday. Certainly a blessing in the long run though, as it later came to light, this monk teacher with the peculiar skill had exercised it on other boys in even more peculiar ways outside the classroom. [/quote]

O_o

93

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
“Yeah, you friend died, I’m tooootally sorry, but he’s in hell now and my god is torturing him and I find this awesome! Off I am to preach the gospel of my wonderful god who’s full of love”
[/quote]

I guess the guy could’ve repented and received the offer of God’s love found in Jesus Christ, but he didn’t. Every decision has consequences.

[/quote]

Christopher Hitchens was a man that spoke well and championed a good cause. Christians are forever making it out to sound like a man like Hitchens has hardened his heart against God intentionally, or maybe just to spite Christians personally.

Hitchens didn’t DECIDE to believe what he believed, any more than you did. The implication of willful ignorance is probably why a lot of people find characters like Tiribulus and yourself offensive and annoying.
[/quote]

I’m aware that this comment is a few pages old, but I just can’t let this go–EVERYONE decides what they believe. They use different standards of evidence or burdens of proof, different methods of deciding, but EVERYONE decides what they believe. They decide using logic and rationality, or emotion, or both. They have different personal histories and backgrounds, but EVERYBODY decides what they believe. You are free to change your decision any time in your life. This doesn’t have anything to do specifically with Hitchens, but the concept as a whole.

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95

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[/quote]
A momentary flashback from the past. Somehow triggered by our discussion of Constantine and a monk and 5th grade. Orion can explain it.

96

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
Chen,

I certainly am not going to argue that Christianity went in the direction that Jesus or the disciples intended. I will however contend that it’s unlikely that Christianity would be as wide spread today if it weren’t for its violent history. A perverted version of Christianity though it might be.
[/quote]
If you were to confine this statement to Europe during the Middle Ages, I could agree with you. Through most of the churches history however, it has been at the receiving end of violence. This is the case even today for much of the Middle East. And in China, Christianity has grown tremendously in the last 20 years, even though the government is rather against it. The same is true in Vietnam.

97

And Africa and Eastern Europe. I know people who are over there. There’s a constant drive for bibles and translators right here in Detroit. We can’t get em over there fast enough. God is doing what God has always done. Withholding Himself from the proud arrogant whoremongers, in this case the western world, and showering His grace on the lowly and broken.

One of the our pastors with a church in the northern burbs brought a young pastor here for training and he was appalled at the state of the American “church”. He was heartbroken at the horrible compromising theological liberalism, immorality and just plain backsliddeness. He said there’s nothing wrong with the American church that a good dose of purifying persecution wouldn’t fix.

He pastors a flock of less than 50 people, but every one of them risks their very lives just taking the name of Jesus on their lips. They don’t need any church discipline. If you show up at all you are full of the Holy Spirit.

Back to the train of thought at hand. History takes on a much more biblical, and hence accurate flavor as soon as one stops assuming that Rome IS the gospel.

98

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
If you were to confine this statement to Europe during the Middle Ages, I could agree with you. Through most of the churches history however, it has been at the receiving end of violence. This is the case even today for much of the Middle East. And in China, Christianity has grown tremendously in the last 20 years, even though the government is rather against it. The same is true in Vietnam.
[/quote]

Competing ideologies are like that, they don’t exactly care for other other organizations swooping in on their turf and stealing their “flock”. If you think of religion as a drug, and their respective organizations as cartels, you can see this for whaty it is, which is nothing more than turf wars with cartels pushing their drug onto new turfs.

Just a new version of the same old story. My advice? Get off the drug and just say no…

99

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
He said there’s nothing wrong with the American church that a good dose of purifying persecution wouldn’t fix.[/quote]

Ahh yes, that’s what we all need isn’t it? A good old fashioned religious persecution, that always sets us straight; nothing gets a man in line faster than that, huh?

Maybe some child sacrifice to test our faith and weed out the non believers…

100

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
He said there’s nothing wrong with the American church that a good dose of purifying persecution wouldn’t fix.[/quote]

Ahh yes, that’s what we all need isn’t it? A good old fashioned religious persecution, that always sets us straight; nothing gets a man in line faster than that, huh?

Maybe some child sacrifice to test our faith and weed out the non believers…
[/quote]No, that’s not what we all need. That’s what the church needs. You’d be fine. I can count on one hand the people I know of at this site who would have any worries.

Show me just one syllable of evidence of Christianity so much as tacitly tolerating child sacrifice and I will publicly renounce my faith and give you the credit. I’ll be waiting.