Christopher Hitchens Dies

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]storey420 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:<<< No biblical before Constantine, you need a Bible to be biblical.[/quote]The creation of the universe was biblical before there was either.
[/quote][/quote]Sarcasm duly noted though what I said is absolutely true. But why Biden? He looks like an aide just told him he’s living in the United States or something there.

Mr. Chen doesn’t appear to need my help, but if he’s really away for the weekend I may not be able to resist pitchin a couple more cents in here. I never herda this guy before a couple days ago though He’s been here 3 years longer than I have and I came here in 06. He jist may be fer real. I spent an hour going through his posting history last night. Pretty solid and very VERY rare here among people claiming Christ. “Bless the Lord oh my soul and all that is within me bless His holy name”. (1st verse of the 103rd Psalm). I’m lookin forward to more from him.[/quote]

It was tongue in cheek but seriously I have no idea what that original statement means. Unless you mean the creation was “biblical” as in “epic” or something like that.

102

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
He said there’s nothing wrong with the American church that a good dose of purifying persecution wouldn’t fix.[/quote]

Ahh yes, that’s what we all need isn’t it? A good old fashioned religious persecution, that always sets us straight; nothing gets a man in line faster than that, huh?

Maybe some child sacrifice to test our faith and weed out the non believers…
[/quote]No, that’s not what we all need. That’s what the church needs. You’d be fine. I can count on one hand the people I know of at this site who would have any worries.

Show me just one syllable of evidence of Christianity so much as tacitly tolerating child sacrifice and I will publicly renounce my faith and give you the credit. I’ll be waiting.
[/quote]
Too wide a marker you are asking for. “Christianity” covers a wide populace and association of groups with similar backgrounds but widely varying beliefs. Yes, there is evidence in the bible and elsewhere that some Canaanites practiced child sacrifice and it was “tolerated” but I wouldn’t say that in any way means Christianity so much as tacitly tolerated it.

103

[quote]storey420 wrote:<<< there is evidence in the bible that<<<>>>child sacrifice was “tolerated” >>>[/quote]Show me.
Fair enough to your other post. I will explain, but I’m at work at the moment without much time.

104

Jeremiah 7:30-34

?For the sons of Judah have done evil in my sight, declares the Lord. They have set their detestable things in the house that is called by my name, to defile it. And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command

All of these (and more) would suggest that the practice was going on and tolerated by many groups, clearly GOD has an issue with it and lays down the law which is why I was saying your “christianity” is too wide a brush.

Leviticus 20:1-5

The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, ?Say to the people of Israel, Any one of the people of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones. I myself will set my face against that man and will cut him off from among his people, because he has given one of his children to Molech, to make my sanctuary unclean and to profane my holy name. And if the people of the land do at all close their eyes to that man when he gives one of his children to Molech, and do not put him to death, then I will set my face against that man and against his clan and will cut them off from among their people, him and all who follow him in whoring after Molech.

Kings 17:17-18

And they burned their sons and their daughters as offerings and used divination and omens and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger. Therefore the Lord was very angry with Israel and removed them out of his sight. None was left but the tribe of Judah only.

105

Those were judgements of God AGAINST those practices. Keep reading. The Lord Jehovah pronounces some positively HORRIFIC penalties for those very acts. Were lookin for “tolerated”.

106

"All of these (and more) would suggest that the practice was going on and tolerated by many groups, clearly GOD has an issue with it and lays down the law which is why I was saying your “christianity” is too wide a brush. "

This line got mixed in with the bible quotes so I think you missed it.

107

EDITED ENTIRELY: I misread your post. Please restate your contention. Mine is that child sacrifice was practiced by the pagan nations surrounding Israel and that when they went whoring (God’s word) after the false gods of those nations, falling into THEIR practices, including child sacrifice, both those nations and Israel were ferociously dealt with. The man intimated that Christianity has a history of child sacrifice. I challenged him to show me. You responded and have proceeded to quote passages that support my view, which is God’s view, because I agree with Him.

Are you now saying that Christianity has never in fact tolerated child sacrifice? I just want to understand you.

BTW, the western church today is doing the same thing Israel did. Only with modern updated versions of Molech, Marduk, Baal and Asherah.

108

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
He said there’s nothing wrong with the American church that a good dose of purifying persecution wouldn’t fix.[/quote]

Ahh yes, that’s what we all need isn’t it? A good old fashioned religious persecution, that always sets us straight; nothing gets a man in line faster than that, huh?

Maybe some child sacrifice to test our faith and weed out the non believers…
[/quote]No, that’s not what we all need. That’s what the church needs. You’d be fine. I can count on one hand the people I know of at this site who would have any worries.

Show me just one syllable of evidence of Christianity so much as tacitly tolerating child sacrifice and I will publicly renounce my faith and give you the credit. I’ll be waiting.
[/quote]

Surely you’re aware of Abraham, right? You must be: “Take your son, your only son - yes, Isaac, whom you love so much - and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you.” (Genesis 22:1-18)

[b]Even if an angel came and put a stop to it, that’s some sick, and I mean REALLY sick shit right there. No joke.

And then there’s Jephthah and the whole daughter burning thingy:[/b] [i]"At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, “If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”

“So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith - twenty towns - and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter - his only child - ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. “My daughter!” he cried out. “My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back.” And she said, “Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin.” “You may go,” Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah’s daughter.” (Judges 11:29-40 NLT)[/i]

Surely an all knowing, all seeing, all powerfull god could’ve put a stop to this one, right? But no…he chose not to intervene. Gods will be done, right? And of course, your loving god just adores those willing to commit themselves to righteous murder, especially if they’re one of those icky non-believers:

"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

[b]But let’s also not forget, that yours is a god that leads from the front. I mean, he’s so jazzed about human sacrifice in his name, that he tortured and killed his own son! Yowza! What a great guy!!

So we can see that it’s not just tacitly tolerated, as you say, it’s kind of a theme in that book of yours. And as I’m told, the bible is kind of a big deal in your religion.[/b]

109

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
If you were to confine this statement to Europe during the Middle Ages, I could agree with you. Through most of the churches history however, it has been at the receiving end of violence. This is the case even today for much of the Middle East. And in China, Christianity has grown tremendously in the last 20 years, even though the government is rather against it. The same is true in Vietnam.
[/quote]

Competing ideologies are like that, they don’t exactly care for other other organizations swooping in on their turf and stealing their “flock”. If you think of religion as a drug, and their respective organizations as cartels, you can see this for whaty it is, which is nothing more than turf wars with cartels pushing their drug onto new turfs.

Just a new version of the same old story. My advice? Get off the drug and just say no…
[/quote]
Everyone has their ideology, or drug as you say. Yourself no less.

110

[quote]bigflamer wrote:<<< So we can see that it’s not just tacitly tolerated, as you say, it’s kind of a theme in that book of yours. And as I’m told, the bible is kind of a big deal in your religion.[/b] >>>[/quote]So where exactly is this child sacrifice? I see Abraham and Isaac which was as you say was stopped. I see Jephthah which was neither his idea nor God’s command, but the result of a foolish vow which even his righteous daughter knew could not be broken. I have addressed many times God’s command to comprehensively exterminate pagan nations who were occupying land He had promised to His covenant people Israel. Your quote from Deuteronomy is another judgment, not a religious practice.

I can give you 20 more examples of the commanded slaughter of men, woman and children and animals and bugs. Ya really disappointed me when ya missed the 19th of Jeremiah where God says: [quote]<<< 7-And in this place I will make void the plans of Judah and Jerusalem, and will cause their people to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hand of those who seek their life. I will give their dead bodies for food to the birds of the air and to the beasts of the earth. 8-And I will make this city a horror, a thing to be hissed at. Everyone who passes by it will be horrified and will hiss because of all its wounds. 9-And I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and their daughters, and everyone shall eat the flesh of his neighbor in the siege and in the distress, with which their enemies and those who seek their life afflict them >>>[/quote]That is also a judgement. You have shown me judgments and extraordinary history. Where is the toleration of the practice of child sacrifice that you clearly implied was a feature of Christian history? I can quickly come up with several where it’s roundly condemned. Child sacrifice is evil because God says it is. Not because it’s evil in itself and He wouldn’t do such a thing. He does not care what you (or I) think is acceptable. Yes He is love itself, because He is spotlessly holy according to His own nature. Not our sinful human delusion. His holiness is what makes His love divine.

You won’t catch me, like some of these guys, making excuses for God though some passages DO require some research. “well, it doesn’t exactly mean…” they’ll say. Yes it does. God has killed and commanded the killing of MULTITUDES of people which is His absolute right. Everything and everyBODY belongs to Him. Every last human conception save for Christ alone results in a depraved corrupt sinner fully deserving of His eternal wrath. Anything less is mercy. My problem is not figuring out why He wiped out lotsa folks who deserved it. I marvel at the fact that he spares ANYBODY, especially me.

The problem you have friend, is universal. You have absolutely NO concept of either God’s blinding purity or your putrefying corruption. The very fact that you question Him is proof enough. Even the heathen king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar eventually got it, after God dealt sharply with him. Daniel 4:34-35 [quote]34-At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever,
for his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
and his kingdom endures from generation to generation;
35-all the peoples of the earth are accounted as nothing,
and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, “What have you done?”[/quote]

EDIT: I’ll throw in here too that this is exactly why I truly grieve over a man like Hitchens. I deserve every bit of the judgment that he is likely under. And much worse. I sinned right in God’s face when I knew better and had already tasted of His eternal goodness. I DO NOT revel in the death of a fellow human being lost in sin. Not Christopher Hitchens, not Saddam Hussein, not Osama Bin Laden or my worst haters in these forums. I know the me that He has lovingly saved me from and I would submit to being tortured to death before questioning His wisdom or justice. I rejoice to see Him move in the lives of others. Like I say. I will not get it, but I want everybody as my brother and sister in Christ. Including men like Christopher Hitchens.

111

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
“Yeah, you friend died, I’m tooootally sorry, but he’s in hell now and my god is torturing him and I find this awesome! Off I am to preach the gospel of my wonderful god who’s full of love”
[/quote]

I guess the guy could’ve repented and received the offer of God’s love found in Jesus Christ, but he didn’t. Every decision has consequences.

[/quote]

Christopher Hitchens was a man that spoke well and championed a good cause. Christians are forever making it out to sound like a man like Hitchens has hardened his heart against God intentionally, or maybe just to spite Christians personally.

Hitchens didn’t DECIDE to believe what he believed, any more than you did. The implication of willful ignorance is probably why a lot of people find characters like Tiribulus and yourself offensive and annoying.
[/quote]

I’m aware that this comment is a few pages old, but I just can’t let this go–EVERYONE decides what they believe. They use different standards of evidence or burdens of proof, different methods of deciding, but EVERYONE decides what they believe. They decide using logic and rationality, or emotion, or both. They have different personal histories and backgrounds, but EVERYBODY decides what they believe. You are free to change your decision any time in your life. This doesn’t have anything to do specifically with Hitchens, but the concept as a whole.[/quote]

When the thought occurred to me just now to open my web browser and this forum, where did it come from? You can rationalize and decide to not ACT on a thought. You can’t decide not to have a thought occur in the first place. The thought “I don’t believe this bullshit” occurred to me in church on day at age 13. Hitchens’ experience was similiar. Believers keep acting like we’ve decided not to believe any more, but the truth is that no one has CONTROL over which ideas will resonate and stick in your mind. You CAN somewhat control exposure though.

112

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
“Yeah, you friend died, I’m tooootally sorry, but he’s in hell now and my god is torturing him and I find this awesome! Off I am to preach the gospel of my wonderful god who’s full of love”
[/quote]

I guess the guy could’ve repented and received the offer of God’s love found in Jesus Christ, but he didn’t. Every decision has consequences.

[/quote]

Christopher Hitchens was a man that spoke well and championed a good cause. Christians are forever making it out to sound like a man like Hitchens has hardened his heart against God intentionally, or maybe just to spite Christians personally.

Hitchens didn’t DECIDE to believe what he believed, any more than you did. The implication of willful ignorance is probably why a lot of people find characters like Tiribulus and yourself offensive and annoying.
[/quote]

I’m aware that this comment is a few pages old, but I just can’t let this go–EVERYONE decides what they believe. They use different standards of evidence or burdens of proof, different methods of deciding, but EVERYONE decides what they believe. They decide using logic and rationality, or emotion, or both. They have different personal histories and backgrounds, but EVERYBODY decides what they believe. You are free to change your decision any time in your life. This doesn’t have anything to do specifically with Hitchens, but the concept as a whole.[/quote]

When the thought occurred to me just now to open my web browser and this forum, where did it come from? You can rationalize and decide to not ACT on a thought. You can’t decide not to have a thought occur in the first place. The thought “I don’t believe this bullshit” occurred to me in church on day at age 13. Hitchens’ experience was similiar. Believers keep acting like we’ve decided not to believe any more, but the truth is that no one has CONTROL over which ideas will resonate and stick in your mind. You CAN somewhat control exposure though.

[/quote]

Absolutely false. What you are essentially arguing is that human beings are empty robots that have no choice but to believe an idea that recurs in their heads with a certain amount of frequency. That’s plain bullshit. You are attempting to forsake all responsibility for your beliefs, political, religious, philosophical, and otherwise with that argument.

Yes, it’s true that we as humans can’t simply decide to never have a specific thought occur to your brain. We do, however, most definitely have the ability and control to decide if and when we believe a concept and if and when we decide to change our minds. You said it yourself–we can decide not to ACT on a thought that occurs to us–and that includes the ACT of believing or subscribing to an idea. Our only individualities are what amount and kind of evidence we allow as acceptable burden of proof or plausibility.

Furthermore, we can decide not to believe OR act on a thought that recurs or sticks constantly in your head, having already been exposed to it. Yes, we can definitely (to some degree) control exposure to what ideas we want. But the mark of an educated and intelligent person is that they never stop exposing themselves to differing points of view in order to fully test and vet their opinions and beliefs. It happens in science–if you cease to do that you cease to be a relevant scientist. It happens in philosophy and economics–if you stop you stop being a leader in your field. And it happens in every day life as well as relgious and political life.

“Beware the man of only one book”. Who has successfully limited and controlled his exposure to ideas, as you put it. It’s not just religious people who are guilty of that.

113

The concept of “sinful rebellious man” is a misnomer. You can’t posit a perfectly holy, perfectly wise, all knowing and all powerful being… then go and suggest that anything he does should turn out any other way than he wants it to. Which in turn means that anything that happens is preordained and going down just as it’s supposed to, which in turns means that worrying about anything that happens in this world is useless.

Which is why for the world to work we need atheists, christians, muslims, hindus, amish and mormons. Too many of these people that CAN’T WAIT for the world to come to an end… well that would spell the end. We must have a wide array of differing faiths, or grow out of religion altogether.

Now where the fuck did that thought just come from? I was just minding my own business frying eggs, then POW! lol

114

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:<<< Now where the fuck did that thought just come from? I was just minding my own business frying eggs, then POW! lol[/quote]Oh that’s easy. You’re a “sinful rebellious man”.=] However you did manage to sneak a bit of read worthy substance into this post. I jist knew ya could do it.

115

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
“Yeah, you friend died, I’m tooootally sorry, but he’s in hell now and my god is torturing him and I find this awesome! Off I am to preach the gospel of my wonderful god who’s full of love”
[/quote]

I guess the guy could’ve repented and received the offer of God’s love found in Jesus Christ, but he didn’t. Every decision has consequences.

[/quote]

Christopher Hitchens was a man that spoke well and championed a good cause. Christians are forever making it out to sound like a man like Hitchens has hardened his heart against God intentionally, or maybe just to spite Christians personally.

Hitchens didn’t DECIDE to believe what he believed, any more than you did. The implication of willful ignorance is probably why a lot of people find characters like Tiribulus and yourself offensive and annoying.
[/quote]

I’m aware that this comment is a few pages old, but I just can’t let this go–EVERYONE decides what they believe. They use different standards of evidence or burdens of proof, different methods of deciding, but EVERYONE decides what they believe. They decide using logic and rationality, or emotion, or both. They have different personal histories and backgrounds, but EVERYBODY decides what they believe. You are free to change your decision any time in your life. This doesn’t have anything to do specifically with Hitchens, but the concept as a whole.[/quote]

When the thought occurred to me just now to open my web browser and this forum, where did it come from? You can rationalize and decide to not ACT on a thought. You can’t decide not to have a thought occur in the first place. The thought “I don’t believe this bullshit” occurred to me in church on day at age 13. Hitchens’ experience was similiar. Believers keep acting like we’ve decided not to believe any more, but the truth is that no one has CONTROL over which ideas will resonate and stick in your mind. You CAN somewhat control exposure though.

[/quote]

Absolutely false. What you are essentially arguing is that human beings are empty robots that have no choice but to believe an idea that recurs in their heads with a certain amount of frequency. That’s plain bullshit. You are attempting to forsake all responsibility for your beliefs, political, religious, philosophical, and otherwise with that argument.

Yes, it’s true that we as humans can’t simply decide to never have a specific thought occur to your brain. We do, however, most definitely have the ability and control to decide if and when we believe a concept and if and when we decide to change our minds. You said it yourself–we can decide not to ACT on a thought that occurs to us–and that includes the ACT of believing or subscribing to an idea. Our only individualities are what amount and kind of evidence we allow as acceptable burden of proof or plausibility.

Furthermore, we can decide not to believe OR act on a thought that recurs or sticks constantly in your head, having already been exposed to it. Yes, we can definitely (to some degree) control exposure to what ideas we want. But the mark of an educated and intelligent person is that they never stop exposing themselves to differing points of view in order to fully test and vet their opinions and beliefs. It happens in science–if you cease to do that you cease to be a relevant scientist. It happens in philosophy and economics–if you stop you stop being a leader in your field. And it happens in every day life as well as relgious and political life.

“Beware the man of only one book”. Who has successfully limited and controlled his exposure to ideas, as you put it. It’s not just religious people who are guilty of that.
[/quote]

I take responsibility for how I act toward my fellow man, but not to score brownie points with some celestial dictator. I would rather have mankind live on than perish, simply because I’m part of it. I don’t do harm to others, because I wouldn’t want anyone to do harm unto me or my loved ones. There is no need to hold yourself ultimately and eternally responsible for the collective actions of mankind since the dawn of time, to be a moral and decent human being.

And you can’t decide what you believe, it’s impossible. Go ahead, decide not to believe in the bible today. You cannot do it, can’t will yourself to do it, any more than I can decide to suddenly start believing. Unbelief is not an act of will, yet that is what theists keep professing.

116

I’m not gonna get in the middle of you and Aragorn Ben, but please do me a favor. Read my last post in the Free Will thread. It’s the last one so far in the thread. It addresses what you’re talking about from the perspective of the secret providence of God though I didn’t exactly say that there.

117

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I’m not gonna get in the middle of you and Aragorn Ben, but please do me a favor. Read my last post in the Free Will thread. It’s the last one so far in the thread. It addresses what you’re talking about from the perspective of the secret providence of God though I didn’t exactly say that there.[/quote]

I did read the thread, which is why I don’t care to discuss anything with you. You take it on faith that God reveals himself in the pages of the Old and New Testament, and will not argue on any other grounds. You seem literally unable to, and I suppose that would be a natural consequence of faith. Now leave well enough alone if you please, you’ve already professed your faith loud and clear and repeatedly.

118

OK, but the hostility is ALL you. You are correct in your above assessment of me too BTW. I am both unwilling and unable and yes. That is the natural consequence of living faith. The mirror opposite of the way you are both unwilling and unable to argue on any other grounds than autonomous faith in yourself which is rebellion against your maker. You have no more “proof”, even by your own standards, for anything you will ever do say or think than I do.

119

Ben-

Those of us who believe the bible is the Word of God believe so because we read it, and came to that conclusion. I take that you have not read it in it’s entirety yet. As a college student I didn’t believe it either, and had many the same ideas as you. That was more than 30 years ago. I am a practical person, and if it hadn’t been able to convince me time and again it was the book God wrote for me, I would’ve dumped it a long time ago.

Pro 1:2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
Pro 1:3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
Pro 1:4 To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
Pro 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise
counsels:

Pro 1:32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
Pro 1:33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

God is a spirit, and He will not show you the deepest things about Himself through scientific inquiry and reason. These are just tools, not all that as.

120

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
Ben-

Those of us who believe the bible is the Word of God believe so because we read it, and came to that conclusion. I take that you have not read it in it’s entirety yet. As a college student I didn’t believe it either, and had many the same ideas as you. That was more than 30 years ago. I am a practical person, and if it hadn’t been able to convince me time and again it was the book God wrote for me, I would’ve dumped it a long time ago.

Pro 1:2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
Pro 1:3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
Pro 1:4 To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
Pro 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise
counsels:

Pro 1:32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
Pro 1:33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

God is a spirit, and He will not show you the deepest things about Himself through scientific inquiry and reason. These are just tools, not all that as.

[/quote]

My own search is far from over. FAR from over.

I must ask if you devoted the same amount of time to studying Advaita Vedanta as you did the Bible. How about Mormonism? Islam?