[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:<<< And why should I “seek”/worship him, if the alternative is eternal torture?
With these stakes, no wonder most men cave in.
[/quote]For the record, I seek/worship Him because I love Him with absolutely everything I have and everything I am. I am His to do with as He sees fit and am privileged and grateful to have it so. Hell has nothing to do with me anymore.
[/quote]
And why would you do that?
Other then some weird cosmological arguments, which you told us in other threads and which don’t prove any connection to the bible, how do you know the christian tradition is really the true club of the one creator ? There are other monotheisms, which may even be more numerous one day.
And why do you have to be so servile?
Do sane parents expect total servitude from children? After all, they made you - and since you, Tiribulus, believe in “free will” as god’s gift, they freely decided to do so, meaning you are their creation.
Why should get some creator-god get more servitude then your direct creator-parents?
[quote]bigflamer wrote:<<< Trib, you seem like and someone who actually believes that religion is a force for good in the world. >>>[/quote]I do not believe that. Catholicism is a perfect example of why. [quote]bigflamer wrote:<<< My questions for you are; do they get “punished”? Are they “wicked” Do they get sent to hell to be tormented forever in a pit of fire attended by demons?[/quote]Mahatma Ghandi and Adolf Hitler are in the same hell if neither was born from death in the first Adam to life in the last. (1st Corinthians 15) Everyone is conceived and born dead and damned and yes wicked. Those whom God does not raise into new life in the spotless sacrifice and resurrection of His son stay that way. What they do or how they live has literally nothing whatever to do with God raising them or not.
That should dissuade you from caring about anything else I say, but if not I will do my best, along with the other conversations I’m involved in, to answer you. I will say once again. Every last theological viewpoint I hold was absolutely ascendant at the time of this nation’s founding(all ya gotta do is look). It sounds so extreme now because of how far the church in this country, indeed the western world, has backslidden.
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:<<< And why should I “seek”/worship him, if the alternative is eternal torture?
With these stakes, no wonder most men cave in.
[/quote]For the record, I seek/worship Him because I love Him with absolutely everything I have and everything I am. I am His to do with as He sees fit and am privileged and grateful to have it so. Hell has nothing to do with me anymore.
[/quote]
And why would you do that?
Other then some weird cosmological arguments, which you told us in other threads and which don’t prove any connection to the bible, how do you know the christian tradition is really the true club of the one creator ? There are other monotheisms, which may even be more numerous one day.
And why do you have to be so servile?
Do sane parents expect total servitude from children? After all, they made you - and since you, Tiribulus, believe in “free will” as god’s gift, they freely decided to do so, meaning you are their creation.
Why should get some creator-god get more servitude then your direct creator-parents?
[/quote]Do you really care about the answers to any of these questions? You don’t understand literally anything about what I believe as this post attests. Every misconception you list here has been mentioned and answered several times each. To your mind? It’s actually MUCH worse than you even think.
Since you are acquainted with the bible, I could just answer the soul as it is defined in scripture, but since it’s a difficult study, I’ll summarize:
The soul is the essence of your being.
It is non-physical, and eternal.
It was created by God at a moment in time.
It is not subordinate to your physical nature, but may be almost entirely subjugated by your physical passions.
The interaction between your soul and flesh is complex, our thought processes being the most complex of all.
Should be a complete enough definition for starters.
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
Since you are acquainted with the bible, I could just answer the soul as it is defined in scripture, but since it’s a difficult study, I’ll summarize:
The soul is the essence of your being.
It is non-physical, and eternal.
It was created by God at a moment in time.
It is not subordinate to your physical nature, but may be almost entirely subjugated by your physical passions.
The interaction between your soul and flesh is complex, our thought processes being the most complex of all.
Should be a complete enough definition for starters.[/quote]
Always good to agree on definitions before getting into things. Also I will freely admit that while being raised in a christian faith, I haven’t studied it for something like 15 years.
I’m with you on the concept that the spirit may be subjugated by physical passions, but only in the sense that any form of attachment can be a hindrance to seeing clearly.
I can’t agree or disagree on the spirit being eternal. Finite mind grasping the infinite and all that. Do I believe I will continue to exist with the “I” that is myself right now? I have no reason to think so. I swear, people are more attached to ideas than any physical pleasure ever experienced. And religious people are HARDLY unique in this. Even as late as 1909, physicists were upholding the idea of the luminiferous ether, an invisible medium that permeates the universe. It was absolutely CERTAIN that this ether had to exist, invisible and weightless though it was. “The ether is not a fantastic creation of the speculative philosopher; it is as essential to us as the air we breathe.” - J.J Thomson. Is the “human essence” that you speak of a fantastic creation of the speculative philosopher? hmmmm
To go back to Hitchens (his name being in the thread title and all), when the thought “religion poisons everything” popped into his head… where did it come from?
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
I swear, people are more attached to ideas than any physical pleasure ever experienced. [/quote]
We Christians would say it’s a desire that God has put in all man. I do not think it is a figment of my mental processes.
Like the ether? My soul is not everywhere. If I remember right, the ether corresponds better to what we now describe as empty space.
I have never read him. I don’t spend much time reading modern atheists or agnostics, I don’t think they have much to add. Although I can see how studying the historical fruits of organized religion would lead one to this conclusion. However, biblical Christianity does not produce such poisonous results.
I have never read him. I don’t spend much time reading modern atheists or agnostics, I don’t think they have much to add. Although I can see how studying the historical fruits of organized religion would lead one to this conclusion. However, biblical Christianity does not produce such poisonous results.
[/quote]
Wouldn’t the Westboro people consider themselves practitioners of “biblical christianity?” Seems like in their eyes they would check all the boxes What Is Biblical Christianity?
Wouldn’t the Westboro people consider themselves practitioners of “biblical christianity?” Seems like in their eyes they would check all the boxes What Is Biblical Christianity?
[/quote]
It’s a good list, and I also would suppose they would claim every one. I don’t think their behavior allows them to claim #1,4,or 17 though. Probably if I went to their site and checked them out, I’d conclude there are a few others they have no right to claim. I consider their protests reprehensible. Nowhere in the bible does it suggest an individual soldier is responsible for the sins of his nation. I am SURE there are hundreds of Christian churches across America that agree with every point on that page, but despise Westboro as I.
Wouldn’t the Westboro people consider themselves practitioners of “biblical christianity?” Seems like in their eyes they would check all the boxes What Is Biblical Christianity?
[/quote]
It’s a good list, and I also would suppose they would claim every one. I don’t think their behavior allows them to claim #1,4,or 17 though. Probably if I went to their site and checked them out, I’d conclude there are a few others they have no right to claim. I consider their protests reprehensible. Nowhere in the bible does it suggest an individual soldier is responsible for the sins of his nation. I am SURE there are hundreds of Christian churches across America that agree with every point on that page, but despise Westboro as I.[/quote]VERY good list indeed about which I will not say much else now. Your point about Westboro is also absolutely right. I agree with much of their statement of faith while declaring that they themselves do not manifest the fruit of their own alleged theology.
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
I swear, people are more attached to ideas than any physical pleasure ever experienced. [/quote]
We Christians would say it’s a desire that God has put in all man. I do not think it is a figment of my mental processes.
Like the ether? My soul is not everywhere. If I remember right, the ether corresponds better to what we now describe as empty space.
I have never read him. I don’t spend much time reading modern atheists or agnostics, I don’t think they have much to add. Although I can see how studying the historical fruits of organized religion would lead one to this conclusion. However, biblical Christianity does not produce such poisonous results.
[/quote]
Christianity did produce some pretty gruesome results. How people cold ever get the idea to kill in the name of Jesus is beyond me. But that’s beside the point, we can’t discuss Hitchens if you never heard him speak. Suffice to say he stood tall for his beliefs, and I had a lot of respect for him.
I mention the ether to illustrate that people get attached to ideas, and how little it means that an abstract concept like the soul seems real to us. I think it’s entirely a human construct.
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
Christianity did produce some pretty gruesome results. How people cold ever get the idea to kill in the name of Jesus is beyond me.
[/quote]
I entirely agree. I do not equate the Roman Catholic Church’s inquisition of say those who didn’t believe the eucharist is the literal body of Christ, or their support of the Ustashi during WW2. Jesus Christ never even intimated such would be right.
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
Christianity did produce some pretty gruesome results. How people cold ever get the idea to kill in the name of Jesus is beyond me.
[/quote]
I entirely agree. I do not equate the Roman Catholic Church’s inquisition of say those who didn’t believe the eucharist is the literal body of Christ, or their support of the Ustashi during WW2. Jesus Christ never even intimated such would be right.[/quote]
Ah but would Christianity have survived to this day without Rome and all the bloodshed that followed? As you can probably tell from the thread I started, I think it wouldn’t have. Offering salvation to people who LIVE for killing, by allowing them to slaughter “infidels.” Genius.
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
Christianity did produce some pretty gruesome results. How people cold ever get the idea to kill in the name of Jesus is beyond me.
[/quote]
I entirely agree. I do not equate the Roman Catholic Church’s inquisition of say those who didn’t believe the eucharist is the literal body of Christ, or their support of the Ustashi during WW2. Jesus Christ never even intimated such would be right.[/quote]
Ah but would Christianity have survived to this day without Rome and all the bloodshed that followed? As you can probably tell from the thread I started, I think it wouldn’t have. Offering salvation to people who LIVE for killing, by allowing them to slaughter “infidels.” Genius.[/quote]
Biblical Christianity was persecuted by Rome, yet survived in spite of it. The bible never needed Rome’s help, and never had it.
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
Christianity did produce some pretty gruesome results. How people cold ever get the idea to kill in the name of Jesus is beyond me.
[/quote]
I entirely agree. I do not equate the Roman Catholic Church’s inquisition of say those who didn’t believe the eucharist is the literal body of Christ, or their support of the Ustashi during WW2. Jesus Christ never even intimated such would be right.[/quote]
Ah but would Christianity have survived to this day without Rome and all the bloodshed that followed? As you can probably tell from the thread I started, I think it wouldn’t have. Offering salvation to people who LIVE for killing, by allowing them to slaughter “infidels.” Genius.[/quote]
Biblical Christianity was persecuted by Rome, yet survived in spite of it. The bible never needed Rome’s help, and never had it.[/quote]
There would be no “Bible” as such without Constantine.
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
Christianity did produce some pretty gruesome results. How people cold ever get the idea to kill in the name of Jesus is beyond me.
[/quote]
I entirely agree. I do not equate the Roman Catholic Church’s inquisition of say those who didn’t believe the eucharist is the literal body of Christ, or their support of the Ustashi during WW2. Jesus Christ never even intimated such would be right.[/quote]
Ah but would Christianity have survived to this day without Rome and all the bloodshed that followed? As you can probably tell from the thread I started, I think it wouldn’t have. Offering salvation to people who LIVE for killing, by allowing them to slaughter “infidels.” Genius.[/quote]
Biblical Christianity was persecuted by Rome, yet survived in spite of it. The bible never needed Rome’s help, and never had it.[/quote]
Christianity was nothing more than a cult before the Roman Empire decide to embrace it. Yes it’s true that originally christians were scorned in favor of the pagan gods, but then Constantine went all politician on us and flip flopped. Christianity was nothing more than a cult before the Roman Empire raised it up, sooooo, that had to help a teensy bit.
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
Christianity did produce some pretty gruesome results. How people cold ever get the idea to kill in the name of Jesus is beyond me.
[/quote]
I entirely agree. I do not equate the Roman Catholic Church’s inquisition of say those who didn’t believe the eucharist is the literal body of Christ, or their support of the Ustashi during WW2. Jesus Christ never even intimated such would be right.[/quote]
Ah but would Christianity have survived to this day without Rome and all the bloodshed that followed? As you can probably tell from the thread I started, I think it wouldn’t have. Offering salvation to people who LIVE for killing, by allowing them to slaughter “infidels.” Genius.[/quote]
Biblical Christianity was persecuted by Rome, yet survived in spite of it. The bible never needed Rome’s help, and never had it.[/quote]
There would be no “Bible” as such without Constantine.
[/quote]
I have up until this point considered you one of the more intelligent posters on these forums, but this statement reeks of intellectual laziness.
Constantine and the system that became Roman Catholicism of the Dark Ages are not one and the same. Unless you intend to say that he was the first pope.
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
Christianity did produce some pretty gruesome results. How people cold ever get the idea to kill in the name of Jesus is beyond me.
[/quote]
I entirely agree. I do not equate the Roman Catholic Church’s inquisition of say those who didn’t believe the eucharist is the literal body of Christ, or their support of the Ustashi during WW2. Jesus Christ never even intimated such would be right.[/quote]
Ah but would Christianity have survived to this day without Rome and all the bloodshed that followed? As you can probably tell from the thread I started, I think it wouldn’t have. Offering salvation to people who LIVE for killing, by allowing them to slaughter “infidels.” Genius.[/quote]
Biblical Christianity was persecuted by Rome, yet survived in spite of it. The bible never needed Rome’s help, and never had it.[/quote]
Christianity was nothing more than a cult before the Roman Empire decide to embrace it. Yes it’s true that originally christians were scorned in favor of the pagan gods, but then Constantine went all politician on us and flip flopped. Christianity was nothing more than a cult before the Roman Empire raised it up, sooooo, that had to help a teensy bit.
[/quote]
You can call it whatever you want. Those simple Christians who kept the teachings of the apostles were called by many names throughout history. The system that developed after Constantine’s decree conflicted with their biblical faith in many ways.
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
Christianity did produce some pretty gruesome results. How people cold ever get the idea to kill in the name of Jesus is beyond me.
[/quote]
I entirely agree. I do not equate the Roman Catholic Church’s inquisition of say those who didn’t believe the eucharist is the literal body of Christ, or their support of the Ustashi during WW2. Jesus Christ never even intimated such would be right.[/quote]
Ah but would Christianity have survived to this day without Rome and all the bloodshed that followed? As you can probably tell from the thread I started, I think it wouldn’t have. Offering salvation to people who LIVE for killing, by allowing them to slaughter “infidels.” Genius.[/quote]
Biblical Christianity was persecuted by Rome, yet survived in spite of it. The bible never needed Rome’s help, and never had it.[/quote]
There would be no “Bible” as such without Constantine.
[/quote]
I have up until this point considered you one of the more intelligent posters on these forums, but this statement reeks of intellectual laziness.
Constantine and the system that became Roman Catholicism of the Dark Ages are not one and the same. Unless you intend to say that he was the first pope.
[/quote]
He made sure that emough people met to boil down what was available to come out with the Bible.
